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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Wed Aug 12th, 2009 06:40 pm |
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Ae wrote:
Cultural context matters.
Funny thing. This is what I've been arguing all along. Cultural context does matter but religion is only one component of culture. This is the reason why it's far more likely for uneducated Muslims in, say, rural Iran to participate in honour killings than educated urban ones or second or third generation Canadian citizens who are devout Muslims.
And don't forget that the strain of misogyny that runs through our culture and not so long ago prohibited women from voting in this country was often argued openly on a religious basis with the literal intepretation of the story of Adam and Eve used to support it. Same holds true for supporters of slavery who used the bible to justify the practice. It's religious thought filtered through a specific cultural context. So yes cultural context is vital. Why are you telling me something I've been arguing for the last couple of pages?
Last edited on Wed Aug 12th, 2009 06:41 pm by onwaranupwar
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Ae
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 06:08 am |
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Ah. Now you're claiming we have cultural context.
You're at the point of being so obtuse your turning circles.
I have some cultural context for you.
Canada's European founding stock is rather heavy in the Irish department. Even about half of the supposed Francophones are actually Irish.
You have a group of people who have no connection to their cultural due to displacement, and being run over culturally by another group who was much smaller in number than they were locally. A determined group with views of Empire.
To the point this group literally has no identity, and even has absorbed cultural disdain for their own history, myths, stories, and ancestors.
You have a group of people who have no historical identity, to the point that their lack of connection to a historical culture has permeated the character of other societies they have tried to create.
You have people from that culture that is no more, who are interbreeding with another culture that almost had the same thing happen to them and the only missed a complete cultural annihilation by about one or two more generations. Even though they were more numerous and their culture way more entrenched. One step from cultural annihilation by a smaller non-local power. Because the annihilating group stepped back.
And, they still don't get it.
You are the story - and you are blinded by your own internalization of cultural suicide.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 05:40 pm |
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Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God onwaranupwar wrote: No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy
You still sticking with this?
If so, you have yet to tell us how the qur'an came to be and what it really respresents.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 05:41 pm |
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Ae wrote: Ah. Now you're claiming we have cultural context. You haven't been following this very well, AE, because I've been pointing to cultural context from the beginning of this thread.
You're at the point of being so obtuse your turning circles.
Ironic words for someone who not long ago on this thread was claiming that honor killings were solely a religious issue and is agreeing with my original contention which you paraphrased so well as "cultural context matters"
I have some cultural context for you.
Canada's European founding stock is rather heavy in the Irish department. Even about half of the supposed Francophones are actually Irish.
You have a group of people who have no connection to their cultural due to displacement, and being run over culturally by another group who was much smaller in number than they were locally. A determined group with views of Empire.
To the point this group literally has no identity, and even has absorbed cultural disdain for their own history, myths, stories, and ancestors.
You have a group of people who have no historical identity, to the point that their lack of connection to a historical culture has permeated the character of other societies they have tried to create.
You have people from that culture that is no more, who are interbreeding with another culture that almost had the same thing happen to them and the only missed a complete cultural annihilation by about one or two more generations. Even though they were more numerous and their culture way more entrenched. One step from cultural annihilation by a smaller non-local power. Because the annihilating group stepped back.
And, they still don't get it.
You are the story - and you are blinded by your own internalization of cultural suicide.
I hope I don't sound patronizing when I tell you that any student who has taken Anthropology 101 would know that the process you describe so poorly above has been going on for about 5000 years and will continue to until this planet implodes. And it isn't called cultural suicide except by those who know little or nothing about the processes of history. (I'm really the wrong person to discuss "cultural anniliation"" with because pretty much every member of my wife's family has suffered from it to a degree that you couldn't begin to understand. And yes in fact that does make me more of an authority on it than you despite your typical Irish rant which i know only too well from personal experience. lol)
But you're still avoiding answering my very simple question:
If we could prove that there is a direct sanctioning of honour killings in the Qu'ran and that all Muslims obey the Qu'ran to the letter, how does this help us stop honour killings?
If that isn't clear enough, let me make it simpler for you?
How do we stop Muslim honour killings or do we just stop letting Muslims into this country?
Clear enough.? Or are you just bitching about Muslims because like Steve C, you hate them on principle?
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 05:42 pm |
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| double post Last edited on Fri Aug 14th, 2009 05:42 pm by onwaranupwar
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 05:57 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote: If we could prove that there is a direct sanctioning of honour killings in the Qu'ran....
I've done that, but all you've ever done is hit the auto-gainsay button in reponse. You said I don't understand the full context of the story, but (and here's a big surprise) you've not explained the "true" contextual meaning.
onwaranupwar wrote: ....and that all Muslims obey the Qu'ran to the letter, how does this help us stop honour killings?
I've repeatedly said that since the quran is a direct sermon from god, all Muslims are expected to believe and obey it. Many have clearly either chosen not to, or simply haven't read the book. Yes, it happens. Arab Muslims living in the ME are by far the most adherent of the world's Muslims, and just take a wild guess as to where most of the honour killings occur.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 05:58 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God onwaranupwar wrote: No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy
You still sticking with this?
If so, you have yet to tell us how the qur'an came to be and what it really respresents.
As I said, Steve, you badly need an education that goes beyond personal observation and picking up things here and there from anti-Muslim blogs on the net while trying to pass it of as scholarship.
But I don't have time to do this for you. I've recommended a book you can read on it but you probably don't read much as evidenced by your threads and posts here. In fact you don't even read other people's posts. If you did, you would have read the one in which I cited stats from the Gallup poll that says most Christians believe the Bible is the absolute word of God to be obeyed literally. In other words, no different than the way some Muslims (you don't have the wherewithall to proof how many) view the Qu'ran
I'm going to pose a question (again) that requires you to use some logic. Judging from your arguments on this thread logic is not your strong point but I'll give you the benfit of the doubt
If the Qu'ran sanctions honor klllings as the duty of devout Muslims and all Muslims take the Qu'ran to be the absolute word of God never to be disobeyed why is it that only a tiny percentage of Muslims--5000 alleged honor killings among a billion Muslims last year--commit these killings? If, as you say, all good Muslims obey the Qu'ran slavishly, why so few honor killings especially considering that at this point in history more and more Muslims are turning away from traditional Islam (another point I've proved that you overlook.)
Give this a try, Steve. Thinking in depth about something and trying to apply logic will be a welcome change from your unsupported and unsupportable rants.
BTW, you're one of those people on here that is always shocked when people disagree with you and provide evidence to back their point of view. You tend to take it personally and accuse that person of being a troll. But the whole point of this forum is not simply to have a place to state an unchallenged position. It's meant to debate issues. If you can't stand the heat ,stay out of the kitchen, Steve, becuase when arguments are as flimsy as yours, they're bound to be contested.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 06:03 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote: I'm really the wrong person to discuss "cultural anniliation"" with because pretty much every member of my wife's family has suffered from it to a degree that you couldn't begin to understand. And yes in fact that does make me more of an authority on it than you despite your typical Irish rant which i know only too well from personal experience. lol
But my 7 years in Egypt is just my own worthless experience, right? All the Egyptian Muslims I worked with who grew up immersed in Islam don't know what they're talking about, right?
And you want to be taken seriously...![[eyeroll]](/forums/themes/default/sarcasm.gif)
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 06:13 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: If we could prove that there is a direct sanctioning of honour killings in the Qu'ran....
I've done that, but all you've ever done is hit the auto-gainsay button in reponse. You said I don't understand the full context of the story, but (and here's a big surprise) you've not explained the "true" contextual meaning.
In a nutshell, here's the contextual meaning of Surah 18. God works in mysterious ways that we don't understand but he has his reasons for what he does. Clear enough? Much like the bible except that the Bible teaches these mysteries can be understood by the common man. Not so the Qu'ran.
Your problem is that you can't understand that the lines you point to in Surah 18 are not the whole story. I'd say this is part of your problem with undestanding Islam AND Christianity--basically you have a shallow view of both.
The basic flaw in your argument is this. "The servant of God" murders the innocent son, not the parent. If Muslims were as literal about the Qu'ran as you say, they'd see the difference.
And for someone who claims to know so much about Islam and the Qu'ran, how is it that the Qu'ran (unlike the bible) states repeatedly that men and women are equal in all ways and that women are to be respected? Why is that you beleive that Muslims who commit honour killings are just doing what the Qu'ran tells them while overlooking the fact that the Qu'ran also tells men that women are their equal?
The reason for your "can't see the forest for the trees" reading of the Qu'ran is that you hate it and Islam and Muslims and are not going to let anything interfere with that attitude.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 06:20 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: I'm really the wrong person to discuss "cultural anniliation"" with because pretty much every member of my wife's family has suffered from it to a degree that you couldn't begin to understand. And yes in fact that does make me more of an authority on it than you despite your typical Irish rant which i know only too well from personal experience. lol
But my 7 years in Egypt is just my own worthless experience, right? All the Egyptian Muslims I worked with who grew up immersed in Islam don't know what they're talking about, right?
And you want to be taken seriously...
I'm not condemning as evil an entire religion and the holy book on which it's based because of my personal experience as you're doing.
Surely you're at least bright enough to grasp this?
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 10:37 pm |
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onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God onwaranupwar wrote: No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy
You still sticking with this?
If so, you have yet to tell us how the qur'an came to be and what it really respresents.
As I said, Steve, you badly need an education that goes beyond personal observation and picking up things here and there from anti-Muslim blogs on the net while trying to pass it of as scholarship.
But I don't have time to do this for you. I've recommended a book you can read on it but you probably don't read much as evidenced by your threads and posts here. In fact you don't even read other people's posts. If you did, you would have read the one in which I cited stats from the Gallup poll that says most Christians believe the Bible is the absolute word of God to be obeyed literally. In other words, no different than the way some Muslims (you don't have the wherewithall to proof how many) view the Qu'ran
I'm going to pose a question (again) that requires you to use some logic. Judging from your arguments on this thread logic is not your strong point but I'll give you the benfit of the doubt
If the Qu'ran sanctions honor klllings as the duty of devout Muslims and all Muslims take the Qu'ran to be the absolute word of God never to be disobeyed why is it that only a tiny percentage of Muslims--5000 alleged honor killings among a billion Muslims last year--commit these killings? If, as you say, all good Muslims obey the Qu'ran slavishly, why so few honor killings especially considering that at this point in history more and more Muslims are turning away from traditional Islam (another point I've proved that you overlook.)
Give this a try, Steve. Thinking in depth about something and trying to apply logic will be a welcome change from your unsupported and unsupportable rants.
BTW, you're one of those people on here that is always shocked when people disagree with you and provide evidence to back their point of view. You tend to take it personally and accuse that person of being a troll. But the whole point of this forum is not simply to have a place to state an unchallenged position. It's meant to debate issues. If you can't stand the heat ,stay out of the kitchen, Steve, becuase when arguments are as flimsy as yours, they're bound to be contested.
That was a very simple question I asked about 2 very simple statements. You talk about this forum being about discussion - it's time you tried.
Here it is again:
Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God onwaranupwar wrote: No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy
You still sticking with this? <<<<< This is the question. Why not simply answer it?
If so, you have yet to tell us how the qur'an came to be and what it really respresents. <<<<<< This is the follow-up if your answer is NO.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Fri Aug 14th, 2009 11:27 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God onwaranupwar wrote: No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy
You still sticking with this?
If so, you have yet to tell us how the qur'an came to be and what it really respresents.
As I said, Steve, you badly need an education that goes beyond personal observation and picking up things here and there from anti-Muslim blogs on the net while trying to pass it of as scholarship.
But I don't have time to do this for you. I've recommended a book you can read on it but you probably don't read much as evidenced by your threads and posts here. In fact you don't even read other people's posts. If you did, you would have read the one in which I cited stats from the Gallup poll that says most Christians believe the Bible is the absolute word of God to be obeyed literally. In other words, no different than the way some Muslims (you don't have the wherewithall to proof how many) view the Qu'ran
I'm going to pose a question (again) that requires you to use some logic. Judging from your arguments on this thread logic is not your strong point but I'll give you the benfit of the doubt
If the Qu'ran sanctions honor klllings as the duty of devout Muslims and all Muslims take the Qu'ran to be the absolute word of God never to be disobeyed why is it that only a tiny percentage of Muslims--5000 alleged honor killings among a billion Muslims last year--commit these killings? If, as you say, all good Muslims obey the Qu'ran slavishly, why so few honor killings especially considering that at this point in history more and more Muslims are turning away from traditional Islam (another point I've proved that you overlook.)
Give this a try, Steve. Thinking in depth about something and trying to apply logic will be a welcome change from your unsupported and unsupportable rants.
BTW, you're one of those people on here that is always shocked when people disagree with you and provide evidence to back their point of view. You tend to take it personally and accuse that person of being a troll. But the whole point of this forum is not simply to have a place to state an unchallenged position. It's meant to debate issues. If you can't stand the heat ,stay out of the kitchen, Steve, becuase when arguments are as flimsy as yours, they're bound to be contested.
That was a very simple question I asked about 2 very simple statements. You talk about this forum being about discussion - it's time you tried.
Here it is again:
Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God onwaranupwar wrote: No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy
You still sticking with this? <<<<< This is the question. Why not simply answer it?
If so, you have yet to tell us how the qur'an came to be and what it really respresents. <<<<<< This is the follow-up if your answer is NO.
You're stuck in neutral, Steve. I've posted my answer to this question twice explicitly and several times implicitly. If you can't grasp it, that's your problem.
I'll give you a hint about the Qu'ran, Steve. If all Muslims understood it in exactly the same literal way, there would be one Muslim point of view. There would be no Taliban or Sufism or any factions of Islam at all, just one united vision. Puzzle this out, Steve: it'll be good for you.
And in the meantime you can tell me why it is if the Qu'ran sanctions honor killings, millions of devout Muslims all over world haven't indulged in them.
But one thing at a time.
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 12:11 am |
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onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God onwaranupwar wrote: No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy
You still sticking with this? <<<<< This is the question. Why not simply answer it?
You're stuck in neutral, Steve. I've posted my answer to this question twice explicitly
Humour me. Was that a yes or a no?
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 12:18 am |
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onwaranupwar wrote: stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: I'm really the wrong person to discuss "cultural anniliation"" with because pretty much every member of my wife's family has suffered from it to a degree that you couldn't begin to understand. And yes in fact that does make me more of an authority on it than you despite your typical Irish rant which i know only too well from personal experience. lol
But my 7 years in Egypt is just my own worthless experience, right? All the Egyptian Muslims I worked with who grew up immersed in Islam don't know what they're talking about, right?
And you want to be taken seriously...
I'm not condemning as evil an entire religion and the holy book on which it's based because of my personal experience as you're doing.
Surely you're at least bright enough to grasp this?
I'm still waiting for you to get something right. I condemn Islam for what the quran and hadiths say. The quran is a non-stop, anti-non-Muslim, apartheid spouting, war mongering, hate-filled rant.
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Ae
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 03:27 am |
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Here you go. How MOST Muslims believe.
I refer you to the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights. Where you will find that there is only equality of DIGNITY, that one is only guaranteed a stake indirectly in governance (through your husband or owner for example), that men are expressly superior. It places restrictions on just about every aspect of Human Rights based on Sharia.
The fact that Honour Killing is Islamic, is that EVERY Islamic nation practices it. In those places it is tolerated, and if laws exist about it they are loosely enforced.
Women are property to do with as you will. This is CLEAR in the Quran. You take a woman, and even if she's a child or you just hacked her husband's head off in front of her and killed her entire village you strike a tent and rape her right there as befits you. If she crosses you, you are to beat her.
You can find defense of killing a female adulterer in student TEXTBOOKS.
In Jordan, a relatively moderate modernized country, the parliament REJECTED laws that the King tried to institute to curb Honour Killings (that thing you say doesn't exist), because "it [punishing honor killings] would encourage adultery and create new social problems." A third of violent deaths in Jordan are honour killings.
Not just condoned, but this is a protected practice to make women live under religious law as they are meant to.
This defense is quite adequately covered even under the most moderate of places by the 2:191-193, 2:217, 4:88-91 about not causing mischief. The argument being that women being out of control and flaunting authority and acting out sexually causes the nation and society grief, and therefore is punishable by death to protect the tribe and clan.
The moderation you are championing is great. I hope to see that moderation will prevail. However, it is a fringe movement and is considered not to be admirable by the vast majority of the Islamic world. They've been corrupted by Christians, and those who are arguing against Sharia in Canadian courts are guilty of apostasy.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 08:59 am |
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Ae wrote: Here you go. How MOST Muslims believe.
I refer you to the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights. Where you will find that there is only equality of DIGNITY, that one is only guaranteed a stake indirectly in governance (through your husband or owner for example), that men are expressly superior. It places restrictions on just about every aspect of Human Rights based on Sharia. Yes, based on Sharia and a socio/political system, not on the Qu'ran The fact that Honour Killing is Islamic, is that EVERY Islamic nation practices it. In those places it is tolerated, and if laws exist about it they are loosely enforced. Here we go again. Honor killing is not Islamic. It exists in other cultures and if you think it doesn't, your ignorance is showing
Women are property to do with as you will. This is CLEAR in the Quran. If it's so clear, please provide the verses that state it. You take a woman, and even if she's a child or you just hacked her husband's head off in front of her and killed her entire village you strike a tent and rape her right there as befits you. If she crosses you, you are to beat her. LOL! This is about on the same level of religious knowledge as saying that Jews have to drink gentile baby blood. Let's see evidence of this taken directly from the Qu'ran.
You can find defense of killing a female adulterer in student TEXTBOOKS.
In Jordan, a relatively moderate modernized country, the parliament REJECTED laws that the King tried to institute to curb Honour Killings (that thing you say doesn't exist), because "it [punishing honor killings] would encourage adultery and create new social problems." A third of violent deaths in Jordan are honour killings.
Your form of bait and switch debating is amusing. It's must be purposeful because no one could possibly be so dense that they couldn't tell difference between contemporary Islamic culture and political structures and the Qu'ran. Not just condoned, but this is a protected practice to make women live under religious law as they are meant to.
Let's see a list of these religious laws taken from the Qu'ran. This defense is quite adequately covered even under the most moderate of places by the 2:191-193, 2:217, 4:88-91 about not causing mischief. The argument being that women being out of control and flaunting authority and acting out sexually causes the nation and society grief, and therefore is punishable by death to protect the tribe and clan.
The moderation you are championing is great. I hope to see that moderation will prevail. However, it is a fringe movement and is considered not to be admirable by the vast majority of the Islamic world. Really? Where do you get these statistics from? Your bathroom wall? A cereal box? If they come from a legitimate source, please reveal it They've been corrupted by Christians, This must be one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this forum by anyone. Most of the people championing women's rights in Islamic countries are Muslim for gods sake. and those who are arguing against Sharia in Canadian courts are guilty of apostasy. AE, you know nothing at all about the content of the Qu'ran, its views on women or what most Muslims do or don't believe.
You're not even able to make a distinction between the Qu'ran and Sharia Law or understand that the oppression of women in Islamic countries is not exclusively religious but political, cultural and societal. The most vicious Islamic faction re: women is the Taliban, hated by most Muslims and only about 25 years old. Like Steve, you're completely ignorant of the different factions of Islam going back over a thousand years and this is why you're unable to account for the differences in thought among Muslims.
But you still haven't answered my question. If it does say in the Qu'ran that women should be oppressed and killed, what should our next step be? Outlaw the Qu'ran? Rip those (imagined) lines out of it? Try to convert all Muslims? Bar all Muslims from entering Canada? Tell me, if you can, the purpose of your groundless propaganda re: the Qu'ran and how it helps women in contemporary Muslim society.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 09:01 am |
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stevecanuck wrote: I condemn Islam for what the quran and hadiths say. The quran is a non-stop, anti-non-Muslim, apartheid spouting, war mongering, hate-filled rant.
More proof that you've never read it or can't understand what you've read.
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 09:20 am |
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Ae wrote:
In Jordan, a relatively moderate modernized country, the parliament REJECTED laws that the King tried to institute to curb Honour Killings (that thing you say doesn't exist), because "it [punishing honor killings] would encourage adultery and create new social problems."
I wanted to address the above on its own, particularly the part I've bolded. I've never once said in this entire thread that honour killings don't exist. I've also never said that Muslims don't commit them. So you're lying.
You must have some reason for sinking to this level of false accusation. Is it because you're unable to back your claims with anything approaching valid proof and so in your desperation you invent these lies about what I have or haven't said?
Or maybe you're just too dim to take it in although I've said plainly enough several times in this thread that I am fully aware of honor killings by Muslims, (and Christians, athiests etc.)
Or maybe you've just completely lost the point of these whole thread which began by Steve slandering all Muslims by saying that their holy book sanctions honour killings.
I don't know what the answer is but whatever it is, I have never ever denied that honour killings take place so cut the crap. Actually it's you that's denied they take place in any culture but Islam which is further proof of your ignorance.
Speaking of ignorance, because you apparently beleive that the Qu'ran and Sharia Law are one and the same, here's a little something that might set you straight, not that I'd want to burst your nice comfy little bubble of misinformation and ignorance.
http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html
Here's a quote from the peice which you probably won't read but be prepared. It requires critical thinking to grasp it, something the Alberta faction on this forum seems to sorely lack.
"Islamic apologists often claim that many so-called violations of human rights are based on a misreading of the Holy Quran and will quote this or that sura in its defense. But the arguments against Political Islam are not against the holy texts but against the Sharia as it is practiced today in Islamic states. We are told that Islam is a religion of peace and that the struggle, jihad, to impose Islam by conquest is not to be taken literally. But for Political Islam it is. Ask the suicide bombers. The only possible response to the charge of misunderstanding or misreading Islam is to look at the reality of what is happening in those countries such as Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and northern Nigeria where the Sharia now holds sway."
This by one your hated Muslims...
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stevecanuck
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 04:30 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God onwaranupwar wrote: No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy
You still sticking with this? <<<<< This is the question. Why not simply answer it?
You're stuck in neutral, Steve. I've posted my answer to this question twice explicitly
Humour me. Was that a yes or a no?
How many times can you avoid giving a simple one-word answer to a simple question?
Do you or do you not recognize that the quran is presented as being the words of god verbatim and in the original language?
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onwaranupwar
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Posted: Sat Aug 15th, 2009 04:52 pm |
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stevecanuck wrote: stevecanuck wrote: onwaranupwar wrote: Ae wrote: The Quran is the literal word of God onwaranupwar wrote: No, it isn't. This is Steve's fantasy
You still sticking with this? <<<<< This is the question. Why not simply answer it?
You're stuck in neutral, Steve. I've posted my answer to this question twice explicitly
Humour me. Was that a yes or a no?
How many times can you avoid giving a simple one-word answer to a simple question?
Do you or do you not recognize that the quran is presented as being the words of god verbatim and in the original language?
OK, Steve, because you apparently need to have things repeated several times before you understand them, I'll oblige you by saying this for the third time.
For Muslims the Qu'ran is the word of God, exactly the way the Bible is the word of God for Christians.
And like Christianity the content of the Qu'ran is and has been interpreted in many different ways as well as being understood literally. This is an indisuptable fact beyond question. If there were only one interpretation of the Qu'ran various Muslim factions would not exist including the very violent Taliban and the super peaceful Sufis who predate them by about 1300 years.
This is the stumbling block in your ridiculous and completely unscholarly claim that "real" devout Muslims follow the Qu'ran word for word. If they did and the Qu'ran sanctioned and encouraged all the horror that you claim it does, we would have been finished 100 years ago and all women would be in chains.
By the way, further ignorance about the Qu'ran on your part is shown by the way you mention hadith and the Qu'ran in the same sentence as though they're the same thing. Hadith dates from a period AFTER Mohammed's death and is most definitely not considered to be the word of God.
Here's some more reading material for you Steve. This will boggle your alleged mind but guess what? Muslim feminists are using the Qu'ran to defend women's rights. But of course they couldn't be "real" Muslims according to you. You better fill them in, redneck. Afterall, the fact you worked with some Muslims in Egypt makes you the indisputable authority on the Qu'ran. 
http://www.commongroundnews.org/article.php?mode=8&id=2432&sid=1
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2129015920070323
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