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Hughmac wrote: Mr TD, never have I seen such a concentrated dose of doging in my entire perspective life.I'm not dodging anything, aside from trying not to step in the dog crap you pretend is a reasonable argument.
1) Your false statements:
A) according to Hugh, I've oppressed them and probably deserve to have my house shelled or the bus I'm riding blown up.
Did you address my pointing this out? Nope. You refute any claim that the Palestinians are acting inappropriately (you know, by killing people) with claims that the Israeli's did bad things, so the Palestininans are justified in blowing up buses, celebrating terrorist activities (bloody noses, as you call them), and shooting rockets into civilian settlements. You claim the Palestinians are justified because they were oppressed by mean ol Isreal. I just figured that since I'm being mean to the Palestinians, maybe they would be justified in blowing me up too. You may not like the idea, but it follows your flawed logic.
BTW, calling the 9/11 attacks a bloody nose... well, tell that to the thousands who lost loved ones in those attacks. That's some bullshi* right there, and I think you suck for saying that.
B) ...and demonstrate an alarming anti-semetic attitude
I was wondering when that mofu would crop up. This is the favourite for Pro-Israeli Americans when they can't defend their attitute with logic. Funnilly enough, the only people that ever level that against me are Americans and not posters from Israel or any Jewish posters.
Well, you blame the Americans for the situation because they support Isreal with money and weapons, so of course those are the people who hit you with that logic. You continuously call me pro-Israeli, but I'm not. I'm anti-Palestinian.
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8" 3) You blindly defend the Palestinians and blame the Jews for everything that happens.
I have repeatedly and roundly criticised the use of terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians, Mr TD... so where is the blind support for the Palestinians? Blind support would mean my condoning their actions?
I don't blame Jews for everything and, by the way, wouldn't you just love to bring this down to the Israeli being Jews, eh - nice try. This is about Israel, buddy: not all Israelis are Jews and not all Jews are Israelis. How you like to forget that, eh? so that you use your anti-semitic crap
4) you still blindly support the terrorist scum Palestinians
Here we go again check out link below and that get back and have the balls, Mr TD, to correct this statement.
Great, so you state that 2 wrongs don't make a right, but every time I point out a "wrong" by the Palestininas, you point out a "wrong" by the Isrealis. If 2 wrongs don't make a right, then quit using that as the central point in your argument.And let's leave my balls out of this, Hugh. You are starting to creep me out. 2) What you continually avoid:
My high-lighting the two completely opposed set of values that you hold for the Israelis and the rest of the world; i.e., what the US reaction would have been to the British had they used the same tactics that Israeli does on the Irish.
I've posted this four times in the hope of your finding a spot of moral backbone, yet even now, you slip into 'cop-out over drive'
I'm not giving the Israelis a pass for anything they've done, and I've repeated that many times. What I'm saying is that the Palestinians seem to get a pass from people like you, who seem to think that the Jews are the root of all evil, and you don't seem to care that they blow up buses, celebrate terrorism, fire rockets at civilians, and general suck. So why don't you address that and stop "copping out" with this moral crap?
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8" Concluding: When I make the sarcastic comment that somebody must have hacked into your account it underlines the fact that the high regard that I had for you as a poster is at complete odds with this visceral garbage that you are spewing here because somebody that can repeatedly come out with several million men, women and children are SCUM does not fit in with my previously held opinion of you as a poster.
Well, I'm not here to make people like me. Otherwise, I'd spew the party line, whine about the plight of the poor Palestinians (who I see as scum), and half the board would think I was just peachy. A group of shi*bags flew airplanes into buildings and killed over 3000 people. The Palestinians had a national holiday. You call it a bloody nose. On behalf of the people who are dead, I'll invite both you and the scumbag Palestinians to kiss my redneck american ass.
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"
Now, you can grow some balls, buddy and answer the hypothetical analogy between Israel/Palestine vs Brits/Irish and you can also use that same testicular growth to click on the link provided and admit that your accusations total crap.
Any chance, Mr TD? Doubt it, of course, but what the hell
Cheers
Hughmac
Again with the balls? I don't see how my beanbag factors into this discussion, but I suppose it makes about as much sense as the rest of your arguments.
I don't see the point of your analogy, but I'll try to address it. Anything to get you to stop talking about my package!
From my point of view, the IRA are scum. They might have legit complaints about their treatment by the British goernment, but there is no excuse for blowing up buses and so forth. That's my whole point here. I don't support the IRA because they are terrorists. If the British government responded with brutal force, killed anyone involved with the IRA and their terrorist activities, and bulldozed the houses of the families of known IRA terrorists (you know, the people who harbor them), I would cheer. Just like you accused me of doing when the US bombed buildings in Iraq.
Anything else?
PS - the Palestinians suck and don't deserve our support.
BushFramedRogerRabbit wrote: These idiots in the gaza strip need to quit killing civilians and then the international community could come to their aid - force Israel to treat them better, and even recognize them as a state.
So, thanks to Palestinian tactics (which began AFTER the abuses listed started) you think Israel should NOT be forced to "treat the Palestinians better"
So the destruction of Palestinian homes is ok.
After all, they're terrorists.
Building settlements on top of said homes and populating them with abusive, unchecked religious extremists, who maim Palestinians with impunity.
That's all A-ok.
After all they're terrorists.
Refusing to prosecute abusive soldiers, restricting the press/UN from brining more abuses to light....Of course it's ok. They're fighting terrorists.
Diverting water supplies...A-ok, they're terrorists.
Dividing the west bank with checkpoints, walls, settler-only highways. It's A-ok, they're terrorists!
So where is the line drawn, TD? Exactly how far are the Israelis allowed to go, in your book?
Genocide?
You answer your own question here.
I draw the line at killing people. The proper response to all of these abuses by the Isrealis is not to blow up buses and kill civilians. Sohat is why I don't support the Palestinians, and cease to care that they are being abused. If they stopped the rockets and other terrorist activities, I would be completely 100% on their side.
I don't care who started it, I care who is continuing to cross the line. So if the Israelis have to go to great lengths to protect their civilians, I'm fine with it.
I doubt they will have to resort to genocide. However, I'm pretty sure that the enemies of Israel would resort to that in a heartbeat if they weren't all a bunch of pussies. Many of them have openly stated that their goal is the destruction of Isreal. So yeah, I give Isreal a lot of latitude in defending their country against such an openly antagonistic aggressor.
But hey, why look at the facts? Instead, just talk about the poor Palestinians being mistreated, ignore their attitudes toward terrorism and their hatred of you, their supporter, and just blame it all on Isreal.
Hughmac wrote: TR1985 wrote: It isn't America's role to rid Europe of dictators and quite frankly the USA was suckered into the first world war and gained nothing from it.
As for dictators we install around the world, you place far too much blame on us, and not those societies or other agencies, because we are not that powerful as you imagine. We may nudge, and we cut deals, but we aren't a God or a Superman. The Shah and Pinochet were far more active and responsible for putting themselves in power than was the USA. Mr Tr1985, I am responding to a pouting Mr jbarns who brought up the whole subject on dictators - I was responding in kind to his squeaky-clean, America's-so-wonderful-my-shi* don't-stink eulogy.
Of course it isn't America's role to get rid of dictators in Europe and Europeans were and are very grateful for America's help in that sad episode. As for the dictators set up by the States in Las Americas, the Europeans were quite happy with those that were set up there and set up quite a few themselves, primarily in Africa.
As for the First World War, like the following war, the US entered to protect its own comercial interests (maritime) How were they suckered?
The Shah and Pinochet: neither could have taken power, and more importantly, retained it, without US military backing. In the case of the Shah, with a little help from their friends; the UK
As for not being Gods or Supermen: You guys did it how the British and French did it as colonial powers, which did not require diety status or wearing your underpants outside your trousers and sporting a ridiculous quiff
Cheers
Hughmac The United States would have done well enough to stay out of the war and it entered the first world war in order to have a place at the peace table at the end and then had a bout of schizophrenia and realized that America has mastery of the North American continent and that it's foolish to be involved deeply in the affairs of Europe.
The Shah didn't retain power and we didn't help him enough to do so, which was probably a mistake all considering.
As for Pinochet, the Chileans really need to man up. They were primarily responsible for his ascension, and they desire to blame the USA mostly to avoid self inspection and as its more convenient to blame an outsider than yourself. The USA does have the same problem in some aspects.
What JBARN means, is that America, for all its flaws, is still the top and a great place. It can be better, and we are working on that. However, its hypocritical to be given a lecture by Europeans on Israel and the Jews, when to be frank, it was your and arab persecution of them that drove them to flee to Israel and quite honestly many Europeans (and not a few Americans) rather liked the idea of the Jews leaving to form their own country.
As for Sept 11 being a bloody nose, it was the first attack on American mainland by a foreign agent in nearly 200 years and was the bloodiest day in American History since the civil war.
How you think this is insignificant in American history is beyond me.
Let's assume for a moment that minimizing human suffering and rights abuse were your foremost values.
Compare, then, the "plight" of the Israelis with that of the Palestinians.
Israel is a developed economy, which provides it's (Israeli) citizens with full democratic rights. In 2008-9, a mere 13 Israelis died due to rocket attacks. If you are born in Israel you could generally be expected to have a high standard of living in a stable country, and not be killed before you're 18.
If you are born in Gaza however, it is quite conceivable that your families home will be knocked down, either by a bulldozer or a (US-supplied) missile from a (US-supplied) F16. Dying is also far more likely in Palestine. In the Gaza war alone, over 1400 Palestinians died. Democratic involvement is a no-no - if you pick the wrong party you're labeled a terrorist by Israel and 'scum" by the international community. Don't expect to get a job either, with Gaza being almost entirely dependent on U.N aid (when it trickles through the blockade) Besides, even if you saved up enough money to buy a house - it may well end up on the wrong end of a bulldozer or a SMART bomb!
Now, the deaths of innocent Israelis are human rights abuse andcannot be justified. Of course they are.
Can they be compared in magnitude to the human rights abuses faced daily by the Palestinians?
Of course they can't.
If minimizing human suffering and rights abuse are your foremost values (as is frequently claimed by many in the US govt.) then which people deserve to be prioritized?
The answer is obvious.
Unless, however, your foremost values are different. Though I cannot imagine what values you might be following to rank Israel as deserving more/equal attention to the Palestinians.
Finally, why tell me you are sure I'm a good person? You have no information to support this, and it comes across as patronizing. I don't give a good crap about some moralistic judgment of my character by you or anyone else. To be quite honest it was do deescalate the already high tensions in this thread.But if you don't care then I'll be meaner.
I don't support Isreal over anyone else Yes you do, Israel has killed more Palestinians , Taken more land, and continues to keep Gaza under siege cutting off supplies to people regardless of whether they support HAMAS or not, When everyone knows if they wanted to they could march right in and arrest the leaders of HAMAS. You've made many points on why we shouldn't support Palestine, if we judge the situation by your own standards, then we should revoke our funding and cancel our alliances with Israel, but as you said here ; If we stopped aiding them, they would be wiped off the map by their neighbors. I don't think a policy of non-interference is wise That would be a genocide, so despite the fact that they've committed the same crimes as the Palestinians they don't deserve the same fate.
You should probably just admit right now that your weak condemnations of Israel are just to make you seem more 'neutral' and you don't have any real interest in Israel stopping its constant wars with the Palestinians.
The Palestinians had a national holiday. You call it a bloody nose. On behalf of the people who are dead, I'll invite both you and the scumbag Palestinians to kiss my redneck American ass.
your condemnation is interesting because the Israeli Government seems to think that the 9/11 were worth celebrating in their own way: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/975574.html
Now I'm sure you think that it's well within Israel's rights to deceive America into additional support, but the fact remains both sides are going to celebrate America's harm in some way. at the enemies of Israel would resort to that in a heartbeat if they weren't all a bunch of pussies. Many of them have openly stated that their goal is the destruction of Isreal. So yeah, I give Isreal a lot of latitude in defending their country against such an openly antagonistic aggressor. You give them a lot of latitude against people who you glorified fireworks as their weapon of choice. Let's be honest here, HAMAS is the only group that can realistically attack Israel.
Turkey has never had an Interest with that sort of thing, Syria and Egypt the traditional enemy of Israel are on relatively good terms with Israel now, Jordan and the Saudis are basically allies of America that have no interest in losing the economic benefits that come with that status, Iraq is an American Puppet state so even talking about Israel in a negative light isn't going to happen there.
That leaves Iran, which is too destabilized domestically to go to war, and even if it did it have to go through Iraq which isn't going to happen.
You also seem to be making a big deal out of the fact that, Israel uses an Army to Massacre its enemy's civilians as opposed to HAMAS which uses Civilians, this does not make it anymore moral than HAMAS. The fact is that your entire argument seems to rest on this statement : The big difference is that the US tries not to kill civilians (and I believe Israel does as well)Which I've yet to see you substantiate in any way.
TR1985 schreef: Hughmac wrote: TR1985 wrote: It isn't America's role to rid Europe of dictators and quite frankly the USA was suckered into the first world war and gained nothing from it.
As for dictators we install around the world, you place far too much blame on us, and not those societies or other agencies, because we are not that powerful as you imagine. We may nudge, and we cut deals, but we aren't a God or a Superman. The Shah and Pinochet were far more active and responsible for putting themselves in power than was the USA. Mr Tr1985, I am responding to a pouting Mr jbarns who brought up the whole subject on dictators - I was responding in kind to his squeaky-clean, America's-so-wonderful-my-shi* don't-stink eulogy.
Of course it isn't America's role to get rid of dictators in Europe and Europeans were and are very grateful for America's help in that sad episode. As for the dictators set up by the States in Las Americas, the Europeans were quite happy with those that were set up there and set up quite a few themselves, primarily in Africa.
As for the First World War, like the following war, the US entered to protect its own comercial interests (maritime) How were they suckered?
The Shah and Pinochet: neither could have taken power, and more importantly, retained it, without US military backing. In the case of the Shah, with a little help from their friends; the UK
As for not being Gods or Supermen: You guys did it how the British and French did it as colonial powers, which did not require diety status or wearing your underpants outside your trousers and sporting a ridiculous quiff
Cheers
Hughmac The United States would have done well enough to stay out of the war and it entered the first world war in order to have a place at the peace table at the end and then had a bout of schizophrenia and realized that America has mastery of the North American continent and that it's foolish to be involved deeply in the affairs of Europe.
The Shah didn't retain power and we didn't help him enough to do so, which was probably a mistake all considering.
The shah shouldn't have been installed in the first place. If the UK and the US had refrained from undermining democracy by supporting a coupe d' etat against Mossadeq, Iran could've been a respectable and modern democracy in this day and age.
You refute any claim that the Palestinians are acting inappropriately (you know, by killing people) with claims that the Israeli's did bad things, so the Palestininans are justified in blowing up buses, celebrating terrorist activities (bloody noses, as you call them), and shooting rockets into civilian settlements.
When exactly did you lose you wits, Mr TD and embark on lying through your teeth to an Olympic degree?
I posted a link where I said very clearly that terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians is NEVER justified, so why don't you move your supermod butt and rectify your above bunch of bloated lies, eh? Aren't you supposed to set a freaking example, Mr TD?
YOU post a link to support your garbage above, otherwise man up and apologise Mr TD
I REPEAT my link that shows completely the opposite to what you are spewing.
In answer to a thread entitled Three Dead in Israeli Suicide Bomb
I wrote:
There can be no justification for this.
When another referred to "Israeli terrorism," I responded
It doesn't really matter who did it, or what cause they carried it out for; it is wrong and cannot be justified. Two wrongs don't make a right.
And just in case you had any freakin doubt, Mr TD, I clarified beyond doubt:
I am well-known here as a staunch critic of Israel and the Bush Administration here.
However, sometimes you have to make a statement, rather than having to be asked for it.
I condemn this action, 100%, and I am not applying any mitigating clause to it, nor detracting from the gravity of it by citing other crimes carried out by other parties.
It's as simply as that...
So how can you have the bare-faced audacity to claim, as you do above, that I justify Palestian terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians???
Hughmac
Last edited on Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 12:54 pm by Hughmac
Hughmac Wrote: Come on, Mr TD. Answer with honesty what you, in particularly, and your like-minded compatriots, would have felt had the British:
1) fired air-to-ground missiles into crowded Catholic housing in Northern Ireland.
2) If the British Army had set about destroying the homes of known IRA gunmen with the freaking granny still inside;
3) If the British Army had callously driven over a young US women with a bloody great bulldozer as you tried to prevent them bulldozing a families house;
4) If the Royal Air Force had droped a one tonne bomb in the middle of a crowded street, killing fourteen civilians, just to get one IRA leader?
TD Wrote: ...If the British government responded with brutal force, killed anyone involved with the IRA and their terrorist activities, and bulldozed the houses of the families of known IRA terrorists (you know, the people who harbor them), I would cheer...
Noted your response to points 1, 2, 3 & 4; i.e., You would "cheer"
I'm not giving Israel a pass or saying that they are blameless. My point here is that a handful of die hard Palestinian lovers seem to give them a pass and not care that they are basically uncivilized a-holes that glorify suicide bombings.
Now, maybe that's not the case with every Palestinian or even very many of them. However, I think it is, and I certainly haven't seen any argument or documentation to prove or even suggest otherwise.
So keep insulting me, making up things that I did not say and attributing them to me, and otherwise directing the debate away from the issue that the Palestinians suck and don't deserve our support. Apparently it's all you got.
TD wrote: I'm not giving Israel a pass or saying that they are blameless. My point here is that a handful of die hard Palestinian lovers seem to give them a pass and not care that they are basically uncivilized a-holes that glorify suicide bombings.
Now, maybe that's not the case with every Palestinian or even very many of them. However, I think it is, and I certainly haven't seen any argument or documentation to prove or even suggest otherwise.
So keep insulting me, making up things that I did not say and attributing them to me, and otherwise directing the debate away from the issue that the Palestinians suck and don't deserve our support. Apparently it's all you got. Oh boy, it gets more pathetic!
Come on, Mr TD, come up with the goods. Provide the links to back up your lies, highlighted in my post before last. I provided the link to disprove them. Where's your backbone - on freakin holiday?
Hughmac wrote: TD wrote: I'm not giving Israel a pass or saying that they are blameless. My point here is that a handful of die hard Palestinian lovers seem to give them a pass and not care that they are basically uncivilized a-holes that glorify suicide bombings.
Now, maybe that's not the case with every Palestinian or even very many of them. However, I think it is, and I certainly haven't seen any argument or documentation to prove or even suggest otherwise.
So keep insulting me, making up things that I did not say and attributing them to me, and otherwise directing the debate away from the issue that the Palestinians suck and don't deserve our support. Apparently it's all you got. Oh boy, it gets more pathetic!
Come on, Mr TD, come up with the goods. Provide the links to back up your lies, highlighted in my post before last. I provided the link to disprove them. Where's your backbone - on freakin holiday?
Hughmac
Ok, what's with the Mr. business? Why not just degrade into truthdetector and tell everyone to Kerry on? Backbone? I guess that's better than you talking about my junk.
TD wrote: Hughmac wrote: ...Come on, Mr TD, come up with the goods. Provide the links to back up your lies, highlighted in my post before last. I provided the link to disprove them. Where's your backbone - on freakin holiday?
Hughmac
Ok, what's with the Mr. business? Why not just degrade into truthdetector and tell everyone to Kerry on? Backbone? I guess that's better than you talking about my junk. So... what happens when a supermod, like your goodself, indulges in a spot of fabrication? Who checks that one out? Would you like to recommend somebody?
You see, Mr TD, you claimed that I justified terrorism, which in the country where I live, is a criminal offence, and I wouldn't be surprise that it is also a criminal offence where you live. See the problem? Accusing somebody, here on Perspectives, of a criminal offence most likely breaks the rules, perphaps under 'fabrication'?
After having appealed to your sense of honour, suggesting that you have the courage to retract your defamatory statement... but to no avail, I now recommend that you refer this situation to a fellow supermod or Admin.
If you did, however, find the moral fortitude to rectify your blatantly false accusation then the matter would rest here.
The ball is in your court, Mr TD
Hughmac
Last edited on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 09:02 am by Hughmac
If people like radical Muslims would remain civilized and peaceful then there wouldn't be such hell fire raining down upon them. The military machinery of the civilized countries is a force that is mostly silent unless there is an indication of possible hostilities getting out of control. At such times, and it is best to catch things before they escalate too much, then they are there to show them that it is futile to fight against superior forces put in place for the discipline of those who would be radically hateful and for the protection of the rest of us who prefer to be peaceful and civilized.
Again! I say that there can not be world peace without hell-fire enforcement. There are just too many idiots in the world who don't learn their lessons without superior fire power...unfortunately.
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