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Bricktopp
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 02:42 pm |
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| Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
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mb
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 03:14 pm |
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Hi Bricktop. Happy Friday to you!
I realize that this is pretty much non-scientific and faith based as there is no way to KNOW for certain what the outcome of a given situation would have been without prayer... (for a preface)
I believe that prayer can effect the outcome of a variety of situations from illness to circumstances and relationships. (and beyond) My own personal experiences are (again) non-scientific but profound. Born crippled, my grandmother hooked up with prayer people who prayed round the clock for my healing - and through medical work and a lot of sweat (and, imho, God's grace), I learned to walk and could even run and compete as an athlete. Heck, I surfed, rode motorcycles, biked distance, and ran cross country. So that was the first major impact of prayer.
Then there was the head-on car wreck when the doctors confirmed with my family and me that there was no way they could save me. They didn't know how, due to the weirdness of my injuries. The only option was a first-time crazy idea one of the doctors came up with. Now, regardless of HOW it worked out, I believe it was God who opened that man's mind to unique ideas and gave them guidance as they did a very "iffy" procedure on me - which obviously saved my life.
I do not believe God runs around doing everything people ask to be done though. Obviously, each of us has to die sooner or later. How silly to believe (for those who desperately want to postpone the inevitable) that there will never be an end to what we know. My own mother died from cancer, and yes I prayed for her. But I didn't just pray for healing. I believed that God was allowing whatever it was to happen for a greater good. I did ask God, that if it fit into the good for all to heal her, that it would be done. I also prayed that God would be gracious and guide her through the illness with a minimum of pain and discomfort. I asked God to give her peace, and to take her from this life in spiritual wholeness.
That might not make a whole lot of sense to you, but it does to me.
My grand daughter (1 year old) is deaf. You can believe that we earnestly prayed that God might show us a way for her to be healed, whether through some divine action or through medical care. While it has been difficult to see that she is still deaf, we are filled with a new awareness and sensitivity for those who deal with disabilities in their lives. Through learning sign (ASL) and exploring that facet of life, all of us in the family are more able to communicate with others and are propelled into refining our own senses. So in a way, through this child's inability to hear, we are all being blessed in other areas. Not my choice, but we are learning to celebrate it.
I know this doesn't really answer your question, but it's a drop in the ocean for you.
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sophion
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 03:43 pm |
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Bricktopp wrote: Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
if the person knows he is being prayed for. then that adds comfort. comfort relieves stress. the less stress the more efficient are your bodily functions and this aids in the healing process.
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Repenta
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 03:59 pm |
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I think that God can heal. I believe that Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead. And that this will take place in the future.
Many people believe that they are healed by prayer and we cannot know for sure why one person gets well and another doesn't. The answer could be purely scientific or it can be the result of prayer. Many people have been cured and the doctors do not know why. But even at that, those people are destined to die.
One should pray for all things. But I believe that it is better to pray for comfort, wisdom of doctors, peace, and relief of pain as MB stated. And we should praise God in all things. And that is not always easy.
But prayer itself has been proven to be beneficial. Even doctors are saying that. It bring comfort to the person who is ill and to the one who is sick. Because God has promised to do away with sickness and death that is the most important thing if we believe in His promises.
God has offered us a plan to defeat death which is promised in the Resurrection to life everlasting. So praying for spiritual guidance and knowledge is actually the best prayers one can make in any situation.
This is of course only one opinion.Last edited on Fri Oct 30th, 2009 04:02 pm by Repenta
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Bricktopp
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 04:05 pm |
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mb wrote: Hi Bricktop. Happy Friday to you!
I realize that this is pretty much non-scientific and faith based as there is no way to KNOW for certain what the outcome of a given situation would have been without prayer... (for a preface)
I believe that prayer can effect the outcome of a variety of situations from illness to circumstances and relationships. (and beyond) My own personal experiences are (again) non-scientific but profound. Born crippled, my grandmother hooked up with prayer people who prayed round the clock for my healing - and through medical work and a lot of sweat (and, imho, God's grace), I learned to walk and could even run and compete as an athlete. Heck, I surfed, rode motorcycles, biked distance, and ran cross country. So that was the first major impact of prayer.
Then there was the head-on car wreck when the doctors confirmed with my family and me that there was no way they could save me. They didn't know how, due to the weirdness of my injuries. The only option was a first-time crazy idea one of the doctors came up with. Now, regardless of HOW it worked out, I believe it was God who opened that man's mind to unique ideas and gave them guidance as they did a very "iffy" procedure on me - which obviously saved my life.
I do not believe God runs around doing everything people ask to be done though. Obviously, each of us has to die sooner or later. How silly to believe (for those who desperately want to postpone the inevitable) that there will never be an end to what we know. My own mother died from cancer, and yes I prayed for her. But I didn't just pray for healing. I believed that God was allowing whatever it was to happen for a greater good. I did ask God, that if it fit into the good for all to heal her, that it would be done. I also prayed that God would be gracious and guide her through the illness with a minimum of pain and discomfort. I asked God to give her peace, and to take her from this life in spiritual wholeness.
That might not make a whole lot of sense to you, but it does to me.
My grand daughter (1 year old) is deaf. You can believe that we earnestly prayed that God might show us a way for her to be healed, whether through some divine action or through medical care. While it has been difficult to see that she is still deaf, we are filled with a new awareness and sensitivity for those who deal with disabilities in their lives. Through learning sign (ASL) and exploring that facet of life, all of us in the family are more able to communicate with others and are propelled into refining our own senses. So in a way, through this child's inability to hear, we are all being blessed in other areas. Not my choice, but we are learning to celebrate it.
I know this doesn't really answer your question, but it's a drop in the ocean for you.
The idea of god changing his plan because people beg him to makes god seem very fickle to me. That god would allow terminally ill patient to die or recover based on whether others take the time to pray for him. It even defies logic to think an omniscient god wouldn’t be able to know in advance if he was going to let someone die or not. That he has to wait to see how many people pray for the recovery before he knows what to do.
Like you said, we can never know which direction any grave illness would have gone without prayer, but I think we can know which direction some grave illnesses would have gone without medical treatment. People like to say they believe in the effectiveness of prayer, but when the doctor comes in and says “sir, we found a mass”, I bet most would quickly choose medical treatment over prayers.
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Bricktopp
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 04:09 pm |
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sophion wrote: Bricktopp wrote: Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
if the person knows he is being prayed for. then that adds comfort. comfort relieves stress. the less stress the more efficient are your bodily functions and this aids in the healing process.
Well sure, the power of suggestion, but that’s a natural phenomenon. I was talking about supernatural intervention.
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mb
S. Moderator
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 04:28 pm |
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Bricktopp wrote: mb wrote: Hi Bricktop. Happy Friday to you!
I realize that this is pretty much non-scientific and faith based as there is no way to KNOW for certain what the outcome of a given situation would have been without prayer... (for a preface)
I believe that prayer can effect the outcome of a variety of situations from illness to circumstances and relationships. (and beyond) My own personal experiences are (again) non-scientific but profound. ... Etc.
The idea of god changing his plan because people beg him to makes god seem very fickle to me. That god would allow terminally ill patient to die or recover based on whether others take the time to pray for him. It even defies logic to think an omniscient god wouldn’t be able to know in advance if he was going to let someone die or not. That he has to wait to see how many people pray for the recovery before he knows what to do.
Like you said, we can never know which direction any grave illness would have gone without prayer, but I think we can know which direction some grave illnesses would have gone without medical treatment. People like to say they believe in the effectiveness of prayer, but when the doctor comes in and says “sir, we found a mass”, I bet most would quickly choose medical treatment over prayers.
Ah, but here is the rub, Bricktop. I do not necessarily God is up there like the puppet-master, making this and that happen. I believe that things just happen, as John Lennon inferred. God can intervene in various circumstances, but to suggest that God is in actual manipulation of all that happens removes the possibility - or probability of personal freedoms and outcome.
I can watch a ball go up into the sky and KNOW that it is going to plop back down again without having caused it myself - or even had anything to do with it.
I also believe that prayer may be, at times, most beneficial for the person doing the praying. It is an active and personal demonstration of faith in God's grace and power.
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BigE
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 04:29 pm |
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Bricktopp wrote: Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
How would you ever know? Because if it did, you wouldn't believe it.
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AMLSurvivor
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 05:40 pm |
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Bricktopp wrote: Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
I've since read your responses from the original post. If you believed in God, then you would think God fickle for altering His plan by praying for the sick is what I've read. But that's not how we pray for the sick. Jesus taught, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
If you read Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo's retort to Nebuchanezzar, when the King ordered them to bow down to the image he made to himself or be thrown into the fiery furnace, they replied we will not bow down to the image. Our God may save us or He may not, but be certain we will not bow down to that image. - Book of Daniel
This is how we are to approach God in prayer. It's with the humbleness to say, God we want your will to be fulfilled yet we would really appreciate a little help here. I cannot say God alters His will, possibly He already planned to give help. In the Hebrew children's case, it was sure that God was involved. There is a trend that is noted as the outcry increases there is an increased likelihood for some favorable response. I can't provide statistics, but I know from personal knowledge the power of prayer is effective.
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Skeptic1
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 06:10 pm |
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AMLSurvivor wrote: Bricktopp wrote: Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
I've since read your responses from the original post. If you believed in God, then you would think God fickle for altering His plan by praying for the sick is what I've read. But that's not how we pray for the sick. Jesus taught, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
If you read Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo's retort to Nebuchanezzar, when the King ordered them to bow down to the image he made to himself or be thrown into the fiery furnace, they replied we will not bow down to the image. Our God may save us or He may not, but be certain we will not bow down to that image. - Book of Daniel
This is how we are to approach God in prayer. It's with the humbleness to say, God we want your will to be fulfilled yet we would really appreciate a little help here. I cannot say God alters His will, possibly He already planned to give help. In the Hebrew children's case, it was sure that God was involved. There is a trend that is noted as the outcry increases there is an increased likelihood for some favorable response. I can't provide statistics, but I know from personal knowledge the power of prayer is effective.
AML, your response doesn't make sense to me. Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled? What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens? Didn't Jesus even say that his father in heaven knows what we need. Behold the lilies of the field....
IMO, either (a) God's will is always done and prayer is useless or (b) God changes His plans based on prayers so God is fickle. Your response seems to create a contradiction.
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AMLSurvivor
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 06:28 pm |
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Skeptic1 wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Bricktopp wrote: Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
I've since read your responses from the original post. If you believed in God, then you would think God fickle for altering His plan by praying for the sick is what I've read. But that's not how we pray for the sick. Jesus taught, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
If you read Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo's retort to Nebuchanezzar, when the King ordered them to bow down to the image he made to himself or be thrown into the fiery furnace, they replied we will not bow down to the image. Our God may save us or He may not, but be certain we will not bow down to that image. - Book of Daniel
This is how we are to approach God in prayer. It's with the humbleness to say, God we want your will to be fulfilled yet we would really appreciate a little help here. I cannot say God alters His will, possibly He already planned to give help. In the Hebrew children's case, it was sure that God was involved. There is a trend that is noted as the outcry increases there is an increased likelihood for some favorable response. I can't provide statistics, but I know from personal knowledge the power of prayer is effective.
AML, your response doesn't make sense to me. Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled? What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens? Didn't Jesus even say that his father in heaven knows what we need. Behold the lilies of the field....
IMO, either (a) God's will is always done and prayer is useless or (b) God changes His plans based on prayers so God is fickle. Your response seems to create a contradiction.
(b) would be nearest the answer minus the fickle contents. If one person prays, the outcry is heard by God. When 10,000 pray the outcry seems increased in volume. God can alter His will and make adjustments so a future occurence will result the same.
1.) Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled?
Yes. From my last communication with you, I believe God's will is not being done in your life. This is not implying you are an evil person, just that I understand you to be atheist. God's will is executed in those who accept eternity as a concept for the soul and humble themselves to God through Jesus Christ. He doesn't force anyone to accept His will.
2.) What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens?
I believe I've partially answered this question in another post. The answer is, we should pray with a humble heart and be accepting of the outcome. I pray for many within this very forum that they will come to know God (you being one). But I cannot alter your will, so I can only hope God reveals Himself to you in an undenied way. Not that I'd get the glory for anything, but that God would. Either way, it's an acceptance of the outcome in light of eternity. Thus, I accept that God's will is perfect and good. Thus, if the outcome doesn't match my desire, I won't change my aspect or desires towards God. Regardless, each person's days are numbered. Whether one believes or not, the body will die. The belief is whether there is anything beyond this existence.
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Bricktopp
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 06:45 pm |
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AMLSurvivor wrote: Skeptic1 wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Bricktopp wrote: Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
I've since read your responses from the original post. If you believed in God, then you would think God fickle for altering His plan by praying for the sick is what I've read. But that's not how we pray for the sick. Jesus taught, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
If you read Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo's retort to Nebuchanezzar, when the King ordered them to bow down to the image he made to himself or be thrown into the fiery furnace, they replied we will not bow down to the image. Our God may save us or He may not, but be certain we will not bow down to that image. - Book of Daniel
This is how we are to approach God in prayer. It's with the humbleness to say, God we want your will to be fulfilled yet we would really appreciate a little help here. I cannot say God alters His will, possibly He already planned to give help. In the Hebrew children's case, it was sure that God was involved. There is a trend that is noted as the outcry increases there is an increased likelihood for some favorable response. I can't provide statistics, but I know from personal knowledge the power of prayer is effective.
AML, your response doesn't make sense to me. Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled? What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens? Didn't Jesus even say that his father in heaven knows what we need. Behold the lilies of the field....
IMO, either (a) God's will is always done and prayer is useless or (b) God changes His plans based on prayers so God is fickle. Your response seems to create a contradiction.
(b) would be nearest the answer minus the fickle contents. If one person prays, the outcry is heard by God. When 10,000 pray the outcry seems increased in volume. God can alter His will and make adjustments so a future occurence will result the same.
1.) Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled?
Yes. From my last communication with you, I believe God's will is not being done in your life. This is not implying you are an evil person, just that I understand you to be atheist. God's will is executed in those who accept eternity as a concept for the soul and humble themselves to God through Jesus Christ. He doesn't force anyone to accept His will.
2.) What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens?
I believe I've partially answered this question in another post. The answer is, we should pray with a humble heart and be accepting of the outcome. I pray for many within this very forum that they will come to know God (you being one). But I cannot alter your will, so I can only hope God reveals Himself to you in an undenied way. Not that I'd get the glory for anything, but that God would. Either way, it's an acceptance of the outcome in light of eternity. Thus, I accept that God's will is perfect and good. Thus, if the outcome doesn't match my desire, I won't change my aspect or desires towards God. Regardless, each person's days are numbered. Whether one believes or not, the body will die. The belief is whether there is anything beyond this existence.
So you believe that if enough people ‘gang up’ on god with prayers, he is more likely to heal than if just one person prays for it? If that’s not fickle, what is fickle?
Have you seen an instance in which you believe god responded to prayer and healed a seriously ill person?
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madmex1966
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 06:48 pm |
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My brother had a serious driving problem. He continued to get into car accidents. I prayed for God to protect him.
My brother kept getting into car accidents. I felt God was not listening to me or answering my prayers. I could only hope that God would.
My brother got into some serious accidents and never got a scratch on him. I only wondered at the time why God wasn't stopping him from getting into car accidents. I didn't pray on it anymore putting faith that God would do something.
Eventually my brother straightened up his act. I guess he got tired of paying for wrecked cars and increases in his insurance. So it did not pass my mind to think on it anymore or whether God had acted on my prayer or not.
God will not force anyone to change their behavior but He will protect them. After reflecting on the whole situation I realized that that was the answer. God protected him from serious harm but didnt force him to change his driving habits. That is something he (my brother) did on his own. I often wonder if my brother would have been hurt if I had not prayed for his protection?
I never told my brother that I prayed for him. Years later he told me he has a sense that someone is watching out for him. He can sense that. My brother is not a practicing Christian. It brought back the memory of me praying for him and made me realize that God did answer that prayer and protected him. I have no doubt.
You can make of that what you will.
God does not rethink allowing someone to die of cancer. This is the world we chose as a people without God's control. We suffer, we die. Whether God heals an infirmity or not depends on the heart of the prayer. Sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes the answer is yes but you do not see it fully.
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Bricktopp
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 06:59 pm |
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mb wrote: Bricktopp wrote: mb wrote: Hi Bricktop. Happy Friday to you!
I realize that this is pretty much non-scientific and faith based as there is no way to KNOW for certain what the outcome of a given situation would have been without prayer... (for a preface)
I believe that prayer can effect the outcome of a variety of situations from illness to circumstances and relationships. (and beyond) My own personal experiences are (again) non-scientific but profound. ... Etc.
The idea of god changing his plan because people beg him to makes god seem very fickle to me. That god would allow terminally ill patient to die or recover based on whether others take the time to pray for him. It even defies logic to think an omniscient god wouldn’t be able to know in advance if he was going to let someone die or not. That he has to wait to see how many people pray for the recovery before he knows what to do.
Like you said, we can never know which direction any grave illness would have gone without prayer, but I think we can know which direction some grave illnesses would have gone without medical treatment. People like to say they believe in the effectiveness of prayer, but when the doctor comes in and says “sir, we found a mass”, I bet most would quickly choose medical treatment over prayers.
Ah, but here is the rub, Bricktop. I do not necessarily God is up there like the puppet-master, making this and that happen. I believe that things just happen, as John Lennon inferred. God can intervene in various circumstances, but to suggest that God is in actual manipulation of all that happens removes the possibility - or probability of personal freedoms and outcome.
I can watch a ball go up into the sky and KNOW that it is going to plop back down again without having caused it myself - or even had anything to do with it.
I also believe that prayer may be, at times, most beneficial for the person doing the praying. It is an active and personal demonstration of faith in God's grace and power.
So I guess if faced with catastrophic illness, you would choose medical treatment over prayer. You would say that under the circumstances (god not always intervening), medical treatment would be more important than prayer, if you had to choose one.
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AMLSurvivor
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 07:07 pm |
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Bricktopp wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Skeptic1 wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Bricktopp wrote: Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
I've since read your responses from the original post. If you believed in God, then you would think God fickle for altering His plan by praying for the sick is what I've read. But that's not how we pray for the sick. Jesus taught, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
If you read Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo's retort to Nebuchanezzar, when the King ordered them to bow down to the image he made to himself or be thrown into the fiery furnace, they replied we will not bow down to the image. Our God may save us or He may not, but be certain we will not bow down to that image. - Book of Daniel
This is how we are to approach God in prayer. It's with the humbleness to say, God we want your will to be fulfilled yet we would really appreciate a little help here. I cannot say God alters His will, possibly He already planned to give help. In the Hebrew children's case, it was sure that God was involved. There is a trend that is noted as the outcry increases there is an increased likelihood for some favorable response. I can't provide statistics, but I know from personal knowledge the power of prayer is effective.
AML, your response doesn't make sense to me. Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled? What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens? Didn't Jesus even say that his father in heaven knows what we need. Behold the lilies of the field....
IMO, either (a) God's will is always done and prayer is useless or (b) God changes His plans based on prayers so God is fickle. Your response seems to create a contradiction.
(b) would be nearest the answer minus the fickle contents. If one person prays, the outcry is heard by God. When 10,000 pray the outcry seems increased in volume. God can alter His will and make adjustments so a future occurence will result the same.
1.) Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled?
Yes. From my last communication with you, I believe God's will is not being done in your life. This is not implying you are an evil person, just that I understand you to be atheist. God's will is executed in those who accept eternity as a concept for the soul and humble themselves to God through Jesus Christ. He doesn't force anyone to accept His will.
2.) What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens?
I believe I've partially answered this question in another post. The answer is, we should pray with a humble heart and be accepting of the outcome. I pray for many within this very forum that they will come to know God (you being one). But I cannot alter your will, so I can only hope God reveals Himself to you in an undenied way. Not that I'd get the glory for anything, but that God would. Either way, it's an acceptance of the outcome in light of eternity. Thus, I accept that God's will is perfect and good. Thus, if the outcome doesn't match my desire, I won't change my aspect or desires towards God. Regardless, each person's days are numbered. Whether one believes or not, the body will die. The belief is whether there is anything beyond this existence.
So you believe that if enough people ‘gang up’ on god with prayers, he is more likely to heal than if just one person prays for it? If that’s not fickle, what is fickle?
Have you seen an instance in which you believe god responded to prayer and healed a seriously ill person?
1.) Realize with my limited toolbox there are few things I can actually control. Assume I were God for a moment and my will is to boil water. I can turn on the stove and heat the water and that's probably the most convenient way for me to accomplish my goal. I can take that water and with a vacuum pump lower atmospheric pressure and the water will boil when the temperature / pressure is right. Now, I have limited tools to affect an outcome, but consider God who has an infinite toolbox. He has the ability to alter outcomes in accordance with His will.
2.) I am that instance. By all scientific and medical reason, I should be dead. Diagnosed with leukemia, I was nearly too late seeking help. Organ shutdown had begun, my lungs had COPD, my kidneys had shutdown, I had blood vessels bursting into my brain cavity, and I had no immune system to prevent infection or germs from killing me. These are just some of the issues. When my illness was discovered / diagnosed and the doctors had announced death was nearly certain (1% survival), numerous people within my church, on Christian radio, then the ancillary prayers that were said by family members reaching out to their churches, and a six state public outcry to God in prayer from people who would pray for me. But it's not that I had knowledge of multiple prayers being said, because honestly, I'd already thrown in the towel. I don't want to blow anyone's mind or think me crazy, but let's just say I was told to either join in death or finish in life.
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AMLSurvivor
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 07:13 pm |
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madmex1966 wrote: My brother had a serious driving problem. He continued to get into car accidents. I prayed for God to protect him.
My brother kept getting into car accidents. I felt God was not listening to me or answering my prayers. I could only hope that God would.
My brother got into some serious accidents and never got a scratch on him. I only wondered at the time why God wasn't stopping him from getting into car accidents. I didn't pray on it anymore putting faith that God would do something.
Eventually my brother straightened up his act. I guess he got tired of paying for wrecked cars and increases in his insurance. So it did not pass my mind to think on it anymore or whether God had acted on my prayer or not.
God will not force anyone to change their behavior but He will protect them. After reflecting on the whole situation I realized that that was the answer. God protected him from serious harm but didnt force him to change his driving habits. That is something he (my brother) did on his own. I often wonder if my brother would have been hurt if I had not prayed for his protection?
I never told my brother that I prayed for him. Years later he told me he has a sense that someone is watching out for him. He can sense that. My brother is not a practicing Christian. It brought back the memory of me praying for him and made me realize that God did answer that prayer and protected him. I have no doubt.
You can make of that what you will.
God does not rethink allowing someone to die of cancer. This is the world we chose as a people without God's control. We suffer, we die. Whether God heals an infirmity or not depends on the heart of the prayer. Sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes the answer is yes but you do not see it fully.
Excellent!
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AMLSurvivor
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 07:19 pm |
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Bricktopp wrote: mb wrote: Bricktopp wrote: mb wrote: Hi Bricktop. Happy Friday to you!
I realize that this is pretty much non-scientific and faith based as there is no way to KNOW for certain what the outcome of a given situation would have been without prayer... (for a preface)
I believe that prayer can effect the outcome of a variety of situations from illness to circumstances and relationships. (and beyond) My own personal experiences are (again) non-scientific but profound. ... Etc.
The idea of god changing his plan because people beg him to makes god seem very fickle to me. That god would allow terminally ill patient to die or recover based on whether others take the time to pray for him. It even defies logic to think an omniscient god wouldn’t be able to know in advance if he was going to let someone die or not. That he has to wait to see how many people pray for the recovery before he knows what to do.
Like you said, we can never know which direction any grave illness would have gone without prayer, but I think we can know which direction some grave illnesses would have gone without medical treatment. People like to say they believe in the effectiveness of prayer, but when the doctor comes in and says “sir, we found a mass”, I bet most would quickly choose medical treatment over prayers.
Ah, but here is the rub, Bricktop. I do not necessarily God is up there like the puppet-master, making this and that happen. I believe that things just happen, as John Lennon inferred. God can intervene in various circumstances, but to suggest that God is in actual manipulation of all that happens removes the possibility - or probability of personal freedoms and outcome.
I can watch a ball go up into the sky and KNOW that it is going to plop back down again without having caused it myself - or even had anything to do with it.
I also believe that prayer may be, at times, most beneficial for the person doing the praying. It is an active and personal demonstration of faith in God's grace and power.
So I guess if faced with catastrophic illness, you would choose medical treatment over prayer. You would say that under the circumstances (god not always intervening), medical treatment would be more important than prayer, if you had to choose one.
I'm not answering for MB, but here's how I see it.
To not use what is at one's disposal is asking for an outcome that is against the desired outcome. God will put the right players into place to resolve the problem if He alters His will to honor those prayers.
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Bricktopp
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 07:26 pm |
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AMLSurvivor wrote: Bricktopp wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Skeptic1 wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Bricktopp wrote: Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
I've since read your responses from the original post. If you believed in God, then you would think God fickle for altering His plan by praying for the sick is what I've read. But that's not how we pray for the sick. Jesus taught, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
If you read Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo's retort to Nebuchanezzar, when the King ordered them to bow down to the image he made to himself or be thrown into the fiery furnace, they replied we will not bow down to the image. Our God may save us or He may not, but be certain we will not bow down to that image. - Book of Daniel
This is how we are to approach God in prayer. It's with the humbleness to say, God we want your will to be fulfilled yet we would really appreciate a little help here. I cannot say God alters His will, possibly He already planned to give help. In the Hebrew children's case, it was sure that God was involved. There is a trend that is noted as the outcry increases there is an increased likelihood for some favorable response. I can't provide statistics, but I know from personal knowledge the power of prayer is effective.
AML, your response doesn't make sense to me. Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled? What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens? Didn't Jesus even say that his father in heaven knows what we need. Behold the lilies of the field....
IMO, either (a) God's will is always done and prayer is useless or (b) God changes His plans based on prayers so God is fickle. Your response seems to create a contradiction.
(b) would be nearest the answer minus the fickle contents. If one person prays, the outcry is heard by God. When 10,000 pray the outcry seems increased in volume. God can alter His will and make adjustments so a future occurence will result the same.
1.) Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled?
Yes. From my last communication with you, I believe God's will is not being done in your life. This is not implying you are an evil person, just that I understand you to be atheist. God's will is executed in those who accept eternity as a concept for the soul and humble themselves to God through Jesus Christ. He doesn't force anyone to accept His will.
2.) What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens?
I believe I've partially answered this question in another post. The answer is, we should pray with a humble heart and be accepting of the outcome. I pray for many within this very forum that they will come to know God (you being one). But I cannot alter your will, so I can only hope God reveals Himself to you in an undenied way. Not that I'd get the glory for anything, but that God would. Either way, it's an acceptance of the outcome in light of eternity. Thus, I accept that God's will is perfect and good. Thus, if the outcome doesn't match my desire, I won't change my aspect or desires towards God. Regardless, each person's days are numbered. Whether one believes or not, the body will die. The belief is whether there is anything beyond this existence.
So you believe that if enough people ‘gang up’ on god with prayers, he is more likely to heal than if just one person prays for it? If that’s not fickle, what is fickle?
Have you seen an instance in which you believe god responded to prayer and healed a seriously ill person?
1.) Realize with my limited toolbox there are few things I can actually control. Assume I were God for a moment and my will is to boil water. I can turn on the stove and heat the water and that's probably the most convenient way for me to accomplish my goal. I can take that water and with a vacuum pump lower atmospheric pressure and the water will boil when the temperature / pressure is right. Now, I have limited tools to affect an outcome, but consider God who has an infinite toolbox. He has the ability to alter outcomes in accordance with His will.
2.) I am that instance. By all scientific and medical reason, I should be dead. Diagnosed with leukemia, I was nearly too late seeking help. Organ shutdown had begun, my lungs had COPD, my kidneys had shutdown, I had blood vessels bursting into my brain cavity, and I had no immune system to prevent infection or germs from killing me. These are just some of the issues. When my illness was discovered / diagnosed and the doctors had announced death was nearly certain (1% survival), numerous people within my church, on Christian radio, then the ancillary prayers that were said by family members reaching out to their churches, and a six state public outcry to God in prayer from people who would pray for me. But it's not that I had knowledge of multiple prayers being said, because honestly, I'd already thrown in the towel. I don't want to blow anyone's mind or think me crazy, but let's just say I was told to either join in death or finish in life.
But you did have a medical chance of recovery so it’s not definitive. Maybe the doctor that gave you a one percent chance was mistaken or maybe a pessimist. Or maybe you were the one percent. Odds against winning the lottery are millions to one but somebody wins every few weeks.
Are you aware of other instances in which you believe god responded to prayer and healed a seriously ill person?
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Realitycheck
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 07:41 pm |
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A few years ago there was a double-blind study done on the "power" of prayer.
It was set up so that a number of people with health problems knew they were being prayed for and an equal number did not.
The over all result was; those who knew they were being prayed for, overall declined. Those who did not, either did not change or tended to get better.
Message here is; when you pray to your god, there is nothing there taking messages.
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AMLSurvivor
Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 30th, 2009 07:46 pm |
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Bricktopp wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Bricktopp wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Skeptic1 wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Bricktopp wrote: Does praying for the recoveries of sick people ever accomplish anything?
I've since read your responses from the original post. If you believed in God, then you would think God fickle for altering His plan by praying for the sick is what I've read. But that's not how we pray for the sick. Jesus taught, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."
If you read Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo's retort to Nebuchanezzar, when the King ordered them to bow down to the image he made to himself or be thrown into the fiery furnace, they replied we will not bow down to the image. Our God may save us or He may not, but be certain we will not bow down to that image. - Book of Daniel
This is how we are to approach God in prayer. It's with the humbleness to say, God we want your will to be fulfilled yet we would really appreciate a little help here. I cannot say God alters His will, possibly He already planned to give help. In the Hebrew children's case, it was sure that God was involved. There is a trend that is noted as the outcry increases there is an increased likelihood for some favorable response. I can't provide statistics, but I know from personal knowledge the power of prayer is effective.
AML, your response doesn't make sense to me. Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled? What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens? Didn't Jesus even say that his father in heaven knows what we need. Behold the lilies of the field....
IMO, either (a) God's will is always done and prayer is useless or (b) God changes His plans based on prayers so God is fickle. Your response seems to create a contradiction.
(b) would be nearest the answer minus the fickle contents. If one person prays, the outcry is heard by God. When 10,000 pray the outcry seems increased in volume. God can alter His will and make adjustments so a future occurence will result the same.
1.) Is there any time when God's will is not fulfilled?
Yes. From my last communication with you, I believe God's will is not being done in your life. This is not implying you are an evil person, just that I understand you to be atheist. God's will is executed in those who accept eternity as a concept for the soul and humble themselves to God through Jesus Christ. He doesn't force anyone to accept His will.
2.) What is the purpose of prayer if God's will is always what happens?
I believe I've partially answered this question in another post. The answer is, we should pray with a humble heart and be accepting of the outcome. I pray for many within this very forum that they will come to know God (you being one). But I cannot alter your will, so I can only hope God reveals Himself to you in an undenied way. Not that I'd get the glory for anything, but that God would. Either way, it's an acceptance of the outcome in light of eternity. Thus, I accept that God's will is perfect and good. Thus, if the outcome doesn't match my desire, I won't change my aspect or desires towards God. Regardless, each person's days are numbered. Whether one believes or not, the body will die. The belief is whether there is anything beyond this existence.
So you believe that if enough people ‘gang up’ on god with prayers, he is more likely to heal than if just one person prays for it? If that’s not fickle, what is fickle?
Have you seen an instance in which you believe god responded to prayer and healed a seriously ill person?
1.) Realize with my limited toolbox there are few things I can actually control. Assume I were God for a moment and my will is to boil water. I can turn on the stove and heat the water and that's probably the most convenient way for me to accomplish my goal. I can take that water and with a vacuum pump lower atmospheric pressure and the water will boil when the temperature / pressure is right. Now, I have limited tools to affect an outcome, but consider God who has an infinite toolbox. He has the ability to alter outcomes in accordance with His will.
2.) I am that instance. By all scientific and medical reason, I should be dead. Diagnosed with leukemia, I was nearly too late seeking help. Organ shutdown had begun, my lungs had COPD, my kidneys had shutdown, I had blood vessels bursting into my brain cavity, and I had no immune system to prevent infection or germs from killing me. These are just some of the issues. When my illness was discovered / diagnosed and the doctors had announced death was nearly certain (1% survival), numerous people within my church, on Christian radio, then the ancillary prayers that were said by family members reaching out to their churches, and a six state public outcry to God in prayer from people who would pray for me. But it's not that I had knowledge of multiple prayers being said, because honestly, I'd already thrown in the towel. I don't want to blow anyone's mind or think me crazy, but let's just say I was told to either join in death or finish in life.
But you did have a medical chance of recovery so it’s not definitive. Maybe the doctor that gave you a one percent chance was mistaken or maybe a pessimist. Or maybe you were the one percent. Odds against winning the lottery are millions to one but somebody wins every few weeks.
Are you aware of other instances in which you believe god responded to prayer and healed a seriously ill person?
It occurs to me that you are questioning the miraculous as opposed to having prayer answered. No doubt, I had a 1% chance by medical research. I'd bet more often than not if you ask people who play the lottery every chance, you'd discover more have lost money than gained.
Now then, lets visit the method that made prayers to be answered. My Acute Myeloid Leukemia was M4eo Inv 16. The Inv16 indicates the mutated gene, I suppose the 16th? It was discovered I had a rare (1:100,000 men have it) Y-chromosome. That chomosome was the exact opposite of the mutated gene. When it was thought my body had no defense, there was an action taking place in my body. Chromosomes are instilled at birth. Therefore, I always had the chromosome, yet even still, God answered prayer. He foresaw the outcry in my behalf and instilled that chromosome some 48 years ago into my DNA. Does the fact I had it change that prayers were answered? There were so many other instances of astronomical coincidence, well, since you are atheist - I guess you'd say I am the luckiest man in the world. In fact, I'd bet nobody is that lucky.
Answering your question, yes...but time is limited right now.
I will be AFK (away from keyboard) for most of this weekend. I need to go out of town and may not have computer access.
Doctors work in teams of 8 at the Markey Cancer Center. No one doctor could make such a grim diagnosis without a concensus from the team.
Last edited on Fri Oct 30th, 2009 07:51 pm by AMLSurvivor
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