 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Axis Mundi
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 08:34 pm |
|
Bricktopp wrote: If god doesn’t want unbelievers to know him through personal experience and observation, what reliable source does he give us to get information on what he’s like or what he wants of us?
As a young child just learning about god, where did you get the knowledge of god you seem to have?
The fact is the only source of information about any god is the words of people. Take the bible for instance. It was published and declared holy by the Catholic Church in their spare time between extorting money from people for forgiveness, torturing and killing people that disagreed with them and molesting little boys. Do you really think a perfect, omniscient god would have to resort to employing such an organization as man’s sole source of information about god?
All knowledge of god came from the words of people, there is no other source. People are corruptible in their pursuit of wealth and power. Example of great wealth and power: the Catholic Church.
One of the inherent troubles with allowing clergy to intercede on yoru behalf with your deity, especially where the Abrahamics are concerned, as their clergy has managed to convince their followers that they (the clergy) are absolutely vital to act on behalf of Jehovah.
The clergy gets to call the shots one hundred percent.
|
BigE
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 26th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4544 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 08:45 pm |
|
Axis Mundi wrote: One of the inherent troubles with allowing clergy to intercede on yoru behalf with your deity, especially where the Abrahamics are concerned, as their clergy has managed to convince their followers that they (the clergy) are absolutely vital to act on behalf of Jehovah.
The clergy gets to call the shots one hundred percent.
What the heck are you talking about?
|
Axis Mundi
Member
|
Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 12:04 am |
|
BigE wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: One of the inherent troubles with allowing clergy to intercede on yoru behalf with your deity, especially where the Abrahamics are concerned, as their clergy has managed to convince their followers that they (the clergy) are absolutely vital to act on behalf of Jehovah.
The clergy gets to call the shots one hundred percent.
What the heck are you talking about?
Mainstream religion is dictated by clergy, not Deity, sicne the adherents of mainstream religions, particularly the Abrahamics, have been convinced BY clergy that clergy MUST be involved.
|
BigE
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 26th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4544 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 12:33 am |
|
Axis Mundi wrote: BigE wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: One of the inherent troubles with allowing clergy to intercede on yoru behalf with your deity, especially where the Abrahamics are concerned, as their clergy has managed to convince their followers that they (the clergy) are absolutely vital to act on behalf of Jehovah.
The clergy gets to call the shots one hundred percent.
What the heck are you talking about?
Mainstream religion is dictated by clergy, not Deity, sicne the adherents of mainstream religions, particularly the Abrahamics, have been convinced BY clergy that clergy MUST be involved.
You are being pretty vague there. What is dictated? What shots are being called "100%" of the time?
|
Axis Mundi
Member
|
Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 01:17 pm |
|
BigE wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: BigE wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: One of the inherent troubles with allowing clergy to intercede on yoru behalf with your deity, especially where the Abrahamics are concerned, as their clergy has managed to convince their followers that they (the clergy) are absolutely vital to act on behalf of Jehovah.
The clergy gets to call the shots one hundred percent.
What the heck are you talking about?
Mainstream religion is dictated by clergy, not Deity, sicne the adherents of mainstream religions, particularly the Abrahamics, have been convinced BY clergy that clergy MUST be involved.
You are being pretty vague there. What is dictated? What shots are being called "100%" of the time?
![[eyeroll]](/forums/themes/default/sarcasm.gif)
What "shots are being called"? Everything, from dogma to doctrine.
Who wrote much of the bible? Who put the bible together during conventions, tossing some books out while keeping others? Who has hand copied and translated said books for centuries before the advent of print?
Who, exactly, tells the masses what is right and what is wrong, all the while enjoying the perks of "clergy-hood"?
|
Radical Maverick
Member
|
Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 09:34 pm |
|
AMLSurvivor wrote: Radical Maverick wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Radical Maverick wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Radical Maverick wrote: The thought of prayer disguists me. It has for a really long time. As if you're so special you deserve attention because you're worth so much more saving then someone else. That, and assuming any prayer you made actually worked just because the results you wanted happen.
So are you so special my friend.
so am I what? I'm no more deserving of anything than anyone else. All I ask for is the basics, and apperantly that is too hight for some people.
You too are special enough to gain God's audience and captivate His attention. God can and will be an active force in your life if you will allow Him to. This is the basic premise of the Christian belief: Had you or I been the only sinners in the world, Christ would have been crucified to save just you or me.
well that didn't take long. que one guilt trip. if I allow him to or decide he is?
View it how you will, but in essence its what the bible says. I am guilty of Christ's crucifixion as much as anyone. But it is true, faith is a prerequisite. To accept a gift, one must acknowledge the giver.
I'm not guilty for anything. Neither are you. How can you honestly beleive you are guilty for something when you didn't exist during the time it took place?
|
Axis Mundi
Member
|
Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 10:17 pm |
|
Radical Maverick wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Radical Maverick wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Radical Maverick wrote: AMLSurvivor wrote: Radical Maverick wrote: The thought of prayer disguists me. It has for a really long time. As if you're so special you deserve attention because you're worth so much more saving then someone else. That, and assuming any prayer you made actually worked just because the results you wanted happen.
So are you so special my friend.
so am I what? I'm no more deserving of anything than anyone else. All I ask for is the basics, and apperantly that is too hight for some people.
You too are special enough to gain God's audience and captivate His attention. God can and will be an active force in your life if you will allow Him to. This is the basic premise of the Christian belief: Had you or I been the only sinners in the world, Christ would have been crucified to save just you or me.
well that didn't take long. que one guilt trip. if I allow him to or decide he is?
View it how you will, but in essence its what the bible says. I am guilty of Christ's crucifixion as much as anyone. But it is true, faith is a prerequisite. To accept a gift, one must acknowledge the giver.
I'm not guilty for anything. Neither are you. How can you honestly beleive you are guilty for something when you didn't exist during the time it took place?
The Guilt Trip Tactict never fails to amaze me. 
|
Radical Maverick
Member
|
Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 10:43 pm |
|
| It amazes me two ways; the fact that they keep using it, and that they think it will work!
|
BigE
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 26th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4544 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 11:00 pm |
|
Axis Mundi wrote: BigE wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: BigE wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: One of the inherent troubles with allowing clergy to intercede on yoru behalf with your deity, especially where the Abrahamics are concerned, as their clergy has managed to convince their followers that they (the clergy) are absolutely vital to act on behalf of Jehovah.
The clergy gets to call the shots one hundred percent.
What the heck are you talking about?
Mainstream religion is dictated by clergy, not Deity, sicne the adherents of mainstream religions, particularly the Abrahamics, have been convinced BY clergy that clergy MUST be involved.
You are being pretty vague there. What is dictated? What shots are being called "100%" of the time?
What "shots are being called"? Everything, from dogma to doctrine.
Who wrote much of the bible? Who put the bible together during conventions, tossing some books out while keeping others? Who has hand copied and translated said books for centuries before the advent of print?
Who, exactly, tells the masses what is right and what is wrong, all the while enjoying the perks of "clergy-hood"?
LOL....I see....your statement is nothing more than just a non-Christian perspective on Christianity. No wonder I was confused....
....since Christians believe the Biblical authors were inspired by God and the Books of the Bible were chosen by the Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And the masses learn right and right from the Bible (already addressed as being inspired by Deity), from Jesus (a Deity) and from a Church established by Jesus (a Deity).
So your claims make no sense.
|
Axis Mundi
Member
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 01:00 am |
|
BigE wrote: LOL....I see....your statement is nothing more than just a non-Christian perspective on Christianity. No wonder I was confused....
....since Christians believe the Biblical authors were inspired by God and the Books of the Bible were chosen by the Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And the masses learn right and right from the Bible (already addressed as being inspired by Deity), from Jesus (a Deity) and from a Church established by Jesus (a Deity).
So your claims make no sense.
Perhaps my perception isn't clouded by adherence to a failed system.
Reading, and writing, were very rare skills during much of Christianity's early history. Early Christian laymen leanred all about God and the Holy Spirit exclusivley through clergy.
There is a reason the Enlightenment Period began shortly after printed books became common enough, and cheap enough, for the common man to own.
|
BigE
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 26th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4544 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 01:06 am |
|
Axis Mundi wrote: BigE wrote: LOL....I see....your statement is nothing more than just a non-Christian perspective on Christianity. No wonder I was confused....
....since Christians believe the Biblical authors were inspired by God and the Books of the Bible were chosen by the Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And the masses learn right and right from the Bible (already addressed as being inspired by Deity), from Jesus (a Deity) and from a Church established by Jesus (a Deity).
So your claims make no sense.
Perhaps my perception isn't clouded by adherence to a failed system.
Reading, and writing, were very rare skills during much of Christianity's early history. Early Christian laymen leanred all about God and the Holy Spirit exclusivley through clergy.
There is a reason the Enlightenment Period began shortly after printed books became common enough, and cheap enough, for the common man to own.
OK....so? It doesn't change anything I said other than you clarifying it was a good idea that God inspired authors who could actually write.
|
Bricktopp
Member
| Joined: | Wed Aug 18th, 2004 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 2452 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 05:15 am |
|
BigE wrote: Axis Mundi wrote: BigE wrote: LOL....I see....your statement is nothing more than just a non-Christian perspective on Christianity. No wonder I was confused....
....since Christians believe the Biblical authors were inspired by God and the Books of the Bible were chosen by the Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And the masses learn right and right from the Bible (already addressed as being inspired by Deity), from Jesus (a Deity) and from a Church established by Jesus (a Deity).
So your claims make no sense.
Perhaps my perception isn't clouded by adherence to a failed system.
Reading, and writing, were very rare skills during much of Christianity's early history. Early Christian laymen leanred all about God and the Holy Spirit exclusivley through clergy.
There is a reason the Enlightenment Period began shortly after printed books became common enough, and cheap enough, for the common man to own.
OK....so? It doesn't change anything I said other than you clarifying it was a good idea that God inspired authors who could actually write.
Have you ever really thought about this “authors inspired by god" business.
How do you know that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? Who told who that ended up with you knowing that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? It wasn’t the authors themselves was it?
So if I said that god was inspiring what I am writing now, would you believe me too?
|
BigE
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 26th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4544 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 11:29 am |
|
Bricktopp wrote:
Have you ever really thought about this “authors inspired by god" business.
Yes...often.... How do you know that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? Who told who that ended up with you knowing that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? It wasn’t the authors themselves was it?
By declaration of the Church and the Christian community (guided by the Holy Spirit of course  ). So if I said that god was inspiring what I am writing now, would you believe me too? Nope. Not unless the Church and Christian community declared it be. And my guess is that you're not even close...
Last edited on Sun Nov 8th, 2009 11:30 am by BigE
|
Axis Mundi
Member
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 01:54 pm |
|
BigE wrote: Bricktopp wrote:
Have you ever really thought about this “authors inspired by god" business.
Yes...often.... How do you know that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? Who told who that ended up with you knowing that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? It wasn’t the authors themselves was it?
By declaration of the Church and the Christian community (guided by the Holy Spirit of course ). So if I said that god was inspiring what I am writing now, would you believe me too? Nope. Not unless the Church and Christian community declared it be. And my guess is that you're not even close...
Well, when one reads the bible, we see that either 1. the idea that Jehovah "inspired" men to write is is bumpkiss or 2. Jehovah is a pretty ignorant sod, considering all of the blatant scientific mistakes and the self-contradictions within the bible.
Your response above also illsutrates the beauty, and inherent dangers of a clergy base system. They ahve managed to convince the flock that they are not only guided by "The Holy Spirit", but that that same Spirit spellchecks their work for them.
|
Bricktopp
Member
| Joined: | Wed Aug 18th, 2004 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 2452 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 02:49 pm |
|
BigE wrote: Bricktopp wrote:
Have you ever really thought about this “authors inspired by god" business.
Yes...often.... How do you know that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? Who told who that ended up with you knowing that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? It wasn’t the authors themselves was it?
By declaration of the Church and the Christian community (guided by the Holy Spirit of course ). So if I said that god was inspiring what I am writing now, would you believe me too? Nope. Not unless the Church and Christian community declared it be. And my guess is that you're not even close...
Are you sure this church who claimed that the book they published was “inspired by god”, was an honorable and highly principled organization and did not have a reputation for extortion, torture, murder or secrecy?
|
BigE
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 26th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4544 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 04:13 pm |
|
Axis Mundi wrote: BigE wrote: Bricktopp wrote:
Have you ever really thought about this “authors inspired by god" business.
Yes...often.... How do you know that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? Who told who that ended up with you knowing that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? It wasn’t the authors themselves was it?
By declaration of the Church and the Christian community (guided by the Holy Spirit of course ). So if I said that god was inspiring what I am writing now, would you believe me too? Nope. Not unless the Church and Christian community declared it be. And my guess is that you're not even close...
Well, when one reads the bible, we see that either 1. the idea that Jehovah "inspired" men to write is is bumpkiss or 2. Jehovah is a pretty ignorant sod, considering all of the blatant scientific mistakes and the self-contradictions within the bible.
Your response above also illsutrates the beauty, and inherent dangers of a clergy base system. They ahve managed to convince the flock that they are not only guided by "The Holy Spirit", but that that same Spirit spellchecks their work for them.
Like I said, your claims about the clergy "calling all the shots" is really just some more anti-christian rhetoric disguised behind some pseudo knowledge of Christian theology.
Your first statement only makes sense when treating the most minority and fundamentalist view of Christianity as the majority, which you seem to like to do. And I can certainly understand why you do it, as it makes a nice straw man for you to argue against.
Your second statement is also silly. Are you expecting Christian leadership to deny God's hand in their faith and the revelations related to that faith? If they did that, they wouldn't be Christians now would they? Your last sentence again assumes only the minority view of what "inspired" means.
|
BigE
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 26th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4544 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 04:26 pm |
|
Bricktopp wrote: BigE wrote: Bricktopp wrote:
Have you ever really thought about this “authors inspired by god" business.
Yes...often.... How do you know that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? Who told who that ended up with you knowing that the authors of the bible were inspired by god? It wasn’t the authors themselves was it?
By declaration of the Church and the Christian community (guided by the Holy Spirit of course ). So if I said that god was inspiring what I am writing now, would you believe me too? Nope. Not unless the Church and Christian community declared it be. And my guess is that you're not even close...
Are you sure this church who claimed that the book they published was “inspired by god”, was an honorable and highly principled organization and did not have a reputation for extortion, torture, murder or secrecy?
Are you asking me in your exagerated way if I can except declarations from a sinful church?
Yep...because God has always worked through people...and people are sinful.
But people (and the church) also have a capacity for great good - which of course you always manage to leave out of the equation.
Same 'ol, same 'ol - got anything I haven't heard before?
|
Axis Mundi
Member
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 05:13 pm |
|
BigE wrote: Like I said, your claims about the clergy "calling all the shots" is really just some more anti-christian rhetoric disguised behind some pseudo knowledge of Christian theology.
Your first statement only makes sense when treating the most minority and fundamentalist view of Christianity as the majority, which you seem to like to do. And I can certainly understand why you do it, as it makes a nice straw man for you to argue against.
Your second statement is also silly. Are you expecting Christian leadership to deny God's hand in their faith and the revelations related to that faith? If they did that, they wouldn't be Christians now would they? Your last sentence again assumes only the minority view of what "inspired" means.
Nothing "anti-Christian" about my remarks. I'm merely pointing out a few facts. If they distrub you that much, I suggest a change of religious venues. Who do you see at the front facing you in Church? Who decided exactly what constitutes "Christianity" in a couple of Conventions nearly 2,ooo years ago. Who calls the shots, litterally, for every Roman Catholic on the planet? Who do you go to in times of a crisis of faith? Who decides if you are permitted to marry in your church?
So, you don't believe in the Creation Myth/Genesis? The biblical flood and Noah's Ark? The Adam and Eve myth? The life, death, and ressurrection of Jesus Christ? Well, I guess perhaps you aren't "mainstream"?
And of course clergy aren't going to deny your god's influences. How often will anyone tip over their own gravy train?
And jsut to clarify, I know perfectly well there are indeed good clergy out there. My son's Pastor, who I work with ona regular basis, is an outstanding women, the wife of a retired rear-admiral who is well travelled and ahs lived among other cultrues and religions.
However, like politics, clergy who rise through the ranks are simply powerhungry individuals whose interest lies far from the spiritual health of their followers. The higher up the clarical ladder, the worse they become. Or, in the instance of televangelists, the more people who flock to them, the more corrupt they become.
|
Jesus Lover
Member
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 05:33 pm |
|
Axis Mundi wrote: BigE wrote: Like I said, your claims about the clergy "calling all the shots" is really just some more anti-christian rhetoric disguised behind some pseudo knowledge of Christian theology.
Your first statement only makes sense when treating the most minority and fundamentalist view of Christianity as the majority, which you seem to like to do. And I can certainly understand why you do it, as it makes a nice straw man for you to argue against.
Your second statement is also silly. Are you expecting Christian leadership to deny God's hand in their faith and the revelations related to that faith? If they did that, they wouldn't be Christians now would they? Your last sentence again assumes only the minority view of what "inspired" means.
Nothing "anti-Christian" about my remarks. I'm merely pointing out a few facts. If they distrub you that much, I suggest a change of religious venues. Who do you see at the front facing you in Church? Who decided exactly what constitutes "Christianity" in a couple of Conventions nearly 2,ooo years ago. Who calls the shots, litterally, for every Roman Catholic on the planet? Who do you go to in times of a crisis of faith? Who decides if you are permitted to marry in your church?
So, you don't believe in the Creation Myth/Genesis? The biblical flood and Noah's Ark? The Adam and Eve myth? The life, death, and ressurrection of Jesus Christ? Well, I guess perhaps you aren't "mainstream"?
And of course clergy aren't going to deny your god's influences. How often will anyone tip over their own gravy train?
And jsut to clarify, I know perfectly well there are indeed good clergy out there. My son's Pastor, who I work with ona regular basis, is an outstanding women, the wife of a retired rear-admiral who is well travelled and ahs lived among other cultrues and religions.
However, like politics, (many of the) clergy who rise through the ranks are simply powerhungry individuals whose interest lies far from the spiritual health of their followers. The higher up the clarical ladder, the worse they become. Or, in the instance of televangelists, the more people who flock to them, the more corrupt they become.
I think you ought to add that. And i would agree with that point, even some who start with good moties reach corruption once they taste power
|
BigE
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 26th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4544 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 05:49 pm |
|
Axis Mundi wrote: BigE wrote: Like I said, your claims about the clergy "calling all the shots" is really just some more anti-christian rhetoric disguised behind some pseudo knowledge of Christian theology.
Your first statement only makes sense when treating the most minority and fundamentalist view of Christianity as the majority, which you seem to like to do. And I can certainly understand why you do it, as it makes a nice straw man for you to argue against.
Your second statement is also silly. Are you expecting Christian leadership to deny God's hand in their faith and the revelations related to that faith? If they did that, they wouldn't be Christians now would they? Your last sentence again assumes only the minority view of what "inspired" means.
Nothing "anti-Christian" about my remarks. I'm merely pointing out a few facts. If they distrub you that much, I suggest a change of religious venues.
Facts don't bother me. Mis-representations do. Who do you see at the front facing you in Church? A person trained to lead our liturgy. Who decided exactly what constitutes "Christianity" in a couple of Conventions nearly 2,ooo years ago. Not who....whom. Answer: the Church. Who calls the shots, litterally, for every Roman Catholic on the planet? I don't know. "Shots" is a very vague term (as I mentioned before). Tell me what "shot" your talking about, and I'll tell you who calls it. Who do you go to in times of a crisis of faith? My wife. My Spiritual Director. My Christian friends. Who decides if you are permitted to marry in your church? The Church. So, you don't believe in the Creation Myth/Genesis? Nope...not as a literal historic event. The biblical flood and Noah's Ark? Nope....not as a literal historic event. The Adam and Eve myth? Nope....not as a literal historic event. The life, death, and ressurrection of Jesus Christ? Oh yea....have to believe in that one or I wouldn't be a Christian. Well, I guess perhaps you aren't "mainstream"? That's my complaint. You don't know what "mainstream" is....which teachings are important, which are not. You have one definition: literal, fundamentalist Christianity - which is not "mainstream". And of course clergy aren't going to deny your god's influences. I think that is the point I made. Otherwise, they wouldn't be Christian would they? So why do you think it odd, that the people trained in the Christian faith, in its theology, its history, and its liturgy, teach those that aren't trained? Isn't that how most teaching, in any organization works? Those with the training and knowledge teach those without? How often will anyone tip over their own gravy train? LOL....another off the cuff, unsupported assertion. And jsut to clarify, I know perfectly well there are indeed good clergy out there. My son's Pastor, who I work with ona regular basis, is an outstanding women, the wife of a retired rear-admiral who is well travelled and ahs lived among other cultrues and religions. Thank you for that admission. However, like politics, clergy who rise through the ranks are simply powerhungry individuals whose interest lies far from the spiritual health of their followers. Your proof of this statement? Or is just another unsupported bias on your part? The higher up the clarical ladder, the worse they become. Or, in the instance of televangelists, the more people who flock to them, the more corrupt they become. LOL...so the one or two bad ones makes them all bad? Does you son's Pastor agree with that conclusion?
|
Current time is 03:33 am | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8   |
|
|
|
|
