Has anyone ever been contacted by angels?

[storm angel]

I've dreamt of messages from angels but never received on in real life.  In my dreams, the angels appear as humans or are invisible, but with a disembodied voice.  They discuss aspects of my life I should be working on.

Anybody else?

[mephibosheth]

I've had an angel on one instance speak to me..through another person..an illegal or guest worker..What he said was private..What he said was private.
[grin][grin]

[holywham]

people take with angels face to face all the time and don't know it

[storm angel]

people take with angels face to face all the time and don't know it

Are you saying angels take on physical human form?  I wouldn't put it past their abilities, but have you ever had an encounter that led you to believe a person was really an angel?

Any special distinguishing characteristics?  Hair, eye color...etc?

[holywham]

people take with angels face to face all the time and don't know it

Are you saying angels take on physical human form?  I wouldn't put it past their abilities, but have you ever had an encounter that led you to believe a person was really an angel?

Any special distinguishing characteristics?  Hair, eye color...etc?

yes sometimes angels take on physical human form.

yes I've head encounters,usually with a mirror

[storm angel]

people take with angels face to face all the time and don't know it

Are you saying angels take on physical human form?  I wouldn't put it past their abilities, but have you ever had an encounter that led you to believe a person was really an angel?

Any special distinguishing characteristics?  Hair, eye color...etc?

yes sometimes angels take on physical human form.

yes I've head encounters,usually with a mirror

Are you saying your reflection takes on a life of its own?  Or are YOU claiming to be an angel? :P

[holywham]

people take with angels face to face all the time and don't know it

Are you saying angels take on physical human form?  I wouldn't put it past their abilities, but have you ever had an encounter that led you to believe a person was really an angel?

Any special distinguishing characteristics?  Hair, eye color...etc?

yes sometimes angels take on physical human form.

yes I've head encounters,usually with a mirror

Are you saying your reflection takes on a life of its own?  Or are YOU claiming to be an angel? :P

the later

[storm angel]

Oh really?

Where were you born?

Do you have a belly button?

How old are you?

I have SO many questions! :P

[amï€]

I've dreamt of messages from angels but never received on in real life.  In my dreams, the angels appear as humans or are invisible, but with a disembodied voice.  They discuss aspects of my life I should be working on.

Anybody else?

Angels can be many things.

I dont know that I ever spoke to or dealt with or experienced an angel in the sense of something like Gabriel or Michael speaking to me or interacting with me.

But I have seen and experienced spiritual events, ghosts, paranormal phenomenon, synchronicities etc...

It very well could be possible that people in my life, or things that have happened to me were angels.

[holywham]

Oh really?

Where were you born?

Do you have a belly button?

How old are you?

I have SO many questions! :P

man is first and formost a spirit liveing in a flesh body.

[storm angel]

Oh really?

Where were you born?

Do you have a belly button?

How old are you?

I have SO many questions! :P

man is first and formost a spirit liveing in a flesh body.

Now I'm just disappointed in you holywham.  You made it sound like you were a true angel - capable of performing miracles and having ultimate knowledge of the Universe and God. :X

[mazel schlimazel]

According to Tradition, we are accompanied by angels (malachim) when we walk to and fro shul (synagogue) from home on every Sabbath.... ;)














Shalom aleichem, malachei hasharet, malachei Elyon, mimelech malchei ham'lachim, HaKadosh Baruch Hu
[color=black][fontsize=2] Shalom upon you, O ministering angels, angels of the Exalted One--from the King Who reigns over kings, the Holy One, Blessed is He.
[/fontsize][/color]
Bo-achem l'shalom, malachei ha-shalom, malachei Elyon, mimelech malchei ham'lachim, HaKadosh Baruch Hu
[color=black][fontsize=2] May your coming be for shalom, O angels of shalom, angels of the Exalted One--from the King Who reigns over kings, the Holy One, Blessed is He.
[/fontsize][/color]
Bar'chuni l'shalom, malachei hashalom, malachei Elyon, mimelech malchei ham'lachim, HaKadosh Baruch Hu
[color=black][fontsize=2] Bless me for shalom, O angels of shalom, angels of the Exalted One--from the King Who reigns over kings, the Holy One, Blessed is He.
[/fontsize][/color]
Tzeit'chem l'shalom, malachei hashalom, malachei Elyon, mimelech malchei ham'lachim, HaKadosh Baruch Hu
[color=black][fontsize=2] May your departure be to shalom, O angels of shalom, angels of the Exalted One--from the King who reigns over kings, the Holy One, Blessed is He.[/fontsize][/color]







As for what's beyond tradition (in reality), I think angels would tend to have higher things to attend to than man's lowly affairs.

[mazel schlimazel]

It is HaShem (G-d) who Alone hears and answers all human supplications. Angels have no free will, and are thus not nearly as powerful on this plane of existence as a person, who does have freedom of the will.

[holywham]

Oh really?

Where were you born?

Do you have a belly button?

How old are you?

I have SO many questions! :P

man is first and formost a spirit liveing in a flesh body.

Now I'm just disappointed in you holywham.  You made it sound like you were a true angel - capable of performing miracles and having ultimate knowledge of the Universe and God. :X

ArchAngel! What day is Michaelmas on? When is the mass on Michael?

AM I,I AM's,AM I         I AM,I AM'S,AM I

Revelation 12vs 7= 12-7-41

[sistermm]

Oh really?

Where were you born?

Do you have a belly button?

How old are you?

I have SO many questions! :P

man is first and formost a spirit liveing in a flesh body.

Now I'm just disappointed in you holywham.  You made it sound like you were a true angel - capable of performing miracles and having ultimate knowledge of the Universe and God. :X

ArchAngel! What day is Michaelmas on? When is the mass on Michael?

AM I,I AM's,AM I         I AM,I AM'S,AM I

Revelation 12vs 7= 12-7-41

I believe it is in September.


Also, I have never been contacted by angels nor do I dream about them. I do have dreams where I am terrified by the possibility of demons.
And I would never pray to an angel.

[bige1]

Oh really?

Where were you born?

Do you have a belly button?

How old are you?

I have SO many questions! :P

man is first and formost a spirit liveing in a flesh body.

Now I'm just disappointed in you holywham.  You made it sound like you were a true angel - capable of performing miracles and having ultimate knowledge of the Universe and God. :X

ArchAngel! What day is Michaelmas on? When is the mass on Michael?

AM I,I AM's,AM I         I AM,I AM'S,AM I

Revelation 12vs 7= 12-7-41

I believe it is in September.


Also, I have never been contacted by angels nor do I dream about them. I do have dreams where I am terrified by the possibility of demons.
And I would never pray to an angel.

Repenta....you are an angel.......

[sistermm]

Try telling that to my husband lol



You Big E and some others make the threads bearable because of the kindness and patience you show. There is so much negativity.

You have made my day.

[irish eyes]

It is HaShem (G-d) who Alone hears and answers all human supplications. Angels have no free will, and are thus not nearly as powerful on this plane of existence as a person, who does have freedom of the will.

Mazel, I am in total agreement with your first point. But as for the comment that angels have no free will, please explain how that could be so when Satan is supposed to be one of the cherubim (angels) and he chose of his own free will to go against G-d. This is an obvious contradiction.

[mazel schlimazel]

Belief in Satan as a being diametric to G-d's will is nowhere to be found in Judaism. That is more of a Christian interpretation. HaSatan is an allegorical prosecutor in the Heavenly court. Evil arises from one's own nature, not from a devil.

[skeptical_r_i_2]

It is HaShem (G-d) who Alone hears and answers all human supplications. Angels have no free will, and are thus not nearly as powerful on this plane of existence as a person, who does have freedom of the will.

Mazel, I am in total agreement with your first point. But as for the comment that angels have no free will, please explain how that could be so when Satan is supposed to be one of the cherubim (angels) and he chose of his own free will to go against G-d. This is an obvious contradiction.

Mazel Schlimazel wrote:  Belief in Satan as a being diametric to G-d's will is nowhere to be found in Judaism. That is more of a Christian interpretation. HaSatan is an allegorical prosecutor in the Heavenly court. Evil arises from one's own nature, not from a devil.

The word translated as "angel" in most translations of the Tenakh (Old Testament) is just the common Hebrew noun for "messenger". Normally in the Tenakh these are seen as men (at least they normally talk, walk and look like men, and people in the tenakh often relate to them exactly as if they are men). Translations just use the generic "angels" to designate that they are messengers of God, on a mission for God. If you read the Tenakh in the original Hebrew you just read "messengers".  "Angels" is a translation word, not an actual Old Testament Hebrew word. The actual word means messenger!

There are a couple of references to seraphim and cherubim, but except for one case they are essentially irrelevant to humans.

"satan" is not a title in the Tenakh. It is a common noun meaning "adversary".There are a number of places in the Tenakh where the word "satan"/adversary is used. I'll give just a few samples (of many) of the word "satan" with its true simple meaning of adversary.

Numbers 22:22 - "And God's anger burned because he (Bil'im) went, and the messenger of the Lord stood in the way as an adversary ("satan") to him"

I Samuel 29:4 - the Philistines say of David, "...lest in the battle he be an adversary ("satan") to us".

I Kings 5:4 (Tenakh: 5:18) Solomon says, "But now the Lord my God has given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary ("satan") not evil hindrance"

I Kings 11:14 "And the Lord stirred up an adversary ("satan") for Solomon, Hadad the Edomit"

I Kings 11:23 - "And God stirred up another adversary ("satan"), Rezon the son of Elyada"

So you can see that the word "satan" is just the common noun for “adversaryâ€�.  In the book of Job it has exactly the same meaning: a common noun for adversary! 

In about 586 BCE the Babylonians carried off the bulk of the Jewish population to Babylon. There they were influenced by the dualism of that religious environment, with its contrast between a God and an Evil Being who opposed God, between the forces of Good and the forces of Evil, between the powers of Light and of Darkness, and this dichotomy became part of Jewish folklore and was prevalent with the man-on-the-street (as opposed to Jewish religious authorities). After the Jews returned to Israel later, they brought back many of these popular ideas with them. Those ideas were popular in the first century and permeate the New Testament (unlike the Tenakh). So they became part of Christianity (as opposed to the formal religion of Judaism)..

Because we are dealing with Christian translations here, and the Christians had adopted a definite “Devil� concept (casting out devils and all of that good stuff), of an evil being that had evil power and promoted evil against God, Christian translators defined the adversary in Job (and two other verses) as THAT Devil type of critter, and so used the word “satan� as a title, “Satan�, instead of being consistent and translating it as the common noun that it is, meaning “adversary� ( as Jewish translators do). In other words, the Satan concept of Christian Bibles is not in the Tenakh (Old Testament). In Job there is a heavenly adversary of man (not God) who God speaks to and who God gives power to, to affect man. Since Job is just an extended parable about the nature of perceived evil and not history, the whole Christian exercise to use Job to establish a real Satan is rather an amusing example of a later religious idea influencing a later translation to give a Christian kick to an earlier document (the Book of Job).

Irish Eyes, the concept you have: "Satan is supposed to be one of the cherubim (angels) and he chose of his own free will to go against G-d" is the Christian concept, not the Jewish concept or the concept found in the Tenakh (Old Testament).

 

[irish eyes]

Thank you Mazel and Skeptical_R_I_2. Very interesting to learn another viewpoint. I was already aware that satan means adversary, but my concept of Satan (with a capital S) is that he is the supreme or ultimate adversary of G-d and mankind. I am curious, though... according to Jewish teachings, who is Isaiah referring to in chapter 14, verses 12-14?

Both of you must surely understand that sometimes teachings become so ingrained in an individual that it eventually becomes a part of his or her reality. And I can say in all honesty that this most likely occurs in both the Jewish and Christian teachings. It is far easier to see one's own 'reality' rather than another's... the "We're right and you're wrong" syndrome. But with maturity I've come to realize that one's so-called reality may be biased by human viewpoint. Nature of the beast. So I don't sweat the details, nor do I attempt to convince another that I'm right because my reality is not their reality. The important thing is, one day we will all know the truth... the pure and unadulterated truth that comes from the source of the one true G-d and not from the minds of men.

Storm Angel, to answer your question, no I have not personally had any angelic visions or received any angelic messages that could be clearly defined as such. But... my husband has experienced instances where we have wondered if the messenger was an angelic being sent by G-d. Both waking and sleeping.

[skeptical_r_i_2]

Thank you Mazel and Skeptical_R_I_2. Very interesting to learn another viewpoint. I was already aware that satan means adversary, but my concept of Satan (with a capital S) is that he is the supreme or ultimate adversary of G-d and mankind. I am curious, though... according to Jewish teachings, who is Isaiah referring to in chapter 14, verses 12-14?

 

In this section of Isaiah he is giving several oracles against Israel's enemies.

Isaiah 13:1  "An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw..." and the oracle about Babylon follows until 14:23.

Isaiah 14:24 starts the oracle concerning Assyria, and it continues through 14:27

Isaiah 14:24 starts the oracle concerning the Philistines, and it continues through 14:32

Isaiah 15:1 "An oracles concerning Moab" and it continues through 16:14

Isaiah 17:1 "An oracle concerning Damascus" and that continues through 17:14

Isaiah 18:1 starts an oracle concerning Ethiopia and that continues through 18:7

Isaiah 19:1 "An oracle concerning Egypt" and it continues to 20:6

Isaiah 21:1 "The oracle concerning the wilderness of the sea" and it continues to 21:10

Isaiah 21:11 "The oracle concerning Dumah"....   and Isaiah continues with oracles about a number of other places.

I mention all of these oracles so that you will see that there is a pattern here where Isaiah starts an oracle about a nation and the words which follow are about that nation.

Isaiah 14:4 (in the oracle about Babylon) says, "...you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has ceased! How his insolence has ceased!" and the taunt continues verse 5 through verse 21.     Isaiah 14:12-17 of the taunt against the king of Babylon reads "How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart,'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High. But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities...'".  The taunt is a poetic description Isaiah gives referring to the king of Babylon (possibly Nebuchadnezzar) describing his insolence; how he aspired so high, and fell so low.

There is no mystery here....

The KJV translators translate that as "Lucifer, son of the morning", but that is NOT what the Hebrew says. This is just another example (and a very poor one at that) of the KJV translators trying to force a translation that is consistent somehow with their devil/Satan beliefs... but it is not what the Bible in Hebrew actually says. The Hebrew would literally read "How you-fell from-heavens morning-star son-of dawn". The hyphenated words are because Hebrew uses prefixes and suffixes on words where in English we would use separate words.

I would point out that many modern Christian translations translate these verses properly as I have described, similar to "How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of dawn!"

 

[irish eyes]

Thank you Mazel and Skeptical_R_I_2. Very interesting to learn another viewpoint. I was already aware that satan means adversary, but my concept of Satan (with a capital S) is that he is the supreme or ultimate adversary of G-d and mankind. I am curious, though... according to Jewish teachings, who is Isaiah referring to in chapter 14, verses 12-14?

 

In this section of Isaiah he is giving several oracles against Israel's enemies.

Isaiah 13:1  "An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw..." and the oracle about Babylon follows until 14:23.

Isaiah 14:24 starts the oracle concerning Assyria, and it continues through 14:27

Isaiah 14:24 starts the oracle concerning the Philistines, and it continues through 14:32

Isaiah 15:1 "An oracles concerning Moab" and it continues through 16:14

Isaiah 17:1 "An oracle concerning Damascus" and that continues through 17:14

Isaiah 18:1 starts an oracle concerning Ethiopia and that continues through 18:7

Isaiah 19:1 "An oracle concerning Egypt" and it continues to 20:6

Isaiah 21:1 "The oracle concerning the wilderness of the sea" and it continues to 21:10

Isaiah 21:11 "The oracle concerning Dumah"....   and Isaiah continues with oracles about a number of other places.

I mention all of these oracles so that you will see that there is a pattern here where Isaiah starts an oracle about a nation and the words which follow are about that nation.

Isaiah 14:4 (in the oracle about Babylon) says, "...you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has ceased! How his insolence has ceased!" and the taunt continues verse 5 through verse 21.     Isaiah 14:12-17 of the taunt against the king of Babylon reads "How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart,'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High. But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities...'".  The taunt is a poetic description Isaiah gives referring to the king of Babylon (possibly Nebuchadnezzar) describing his insolence; how he aspired so high, and fell so low.

There is no mystery here....

The KJV translators translate that as "Lucifer, son of the morning", but that is NOT what the Hebrew says. This is just another example (and a very poor one at that) of the KJV translators trying to force a translation that is consistent somehow with their devil/Satan beliefs... but it is not what the Bible in Hebrew actually says. The Hebrew would literally read "How you-fell from-heavens morning-star son-of dawn". The hyphenated words are because Hebrew uses prefixes and suffixes on words where in English we would use separate words.

I would point out that many modern Christian translations translate these verses properly as I have described, similar to "How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of dawn!"

 

 

I agree that the KJV is a poor translation from the original texts. I have found the NIV to be a superior translation.

But I wonder... for one to fall from heavens it is implied that the fallen WAS in heaven. If that is accurate then does this then imply that if the fallen was simply a mortal man, and not an angelic creature, that man was in heaven and was cast down to earth? I'm puzzled.

[mephibosheth]

Thank you Mazel and Skeptical_R_I_2. Very interesting to learn another viewpoint. I was already aware that satan means adversary, but my concept of Satan (with a capital S) is that he is the supreme or ultimate adversary of G-d and mankind. I am curious, though... according to Jewish teachings, who is Isaiah referring to in chapter 14, verses 12-14?

 

In this section of Isaiah he is giving several oracles against Israel's enemies.

Isaiah 13:1  "An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw..." and the oracle about Babylon follows until 14:23.

Isaiah 14:24 starts the oracle concerning Assyria, and it continues through 14:27

Isaiah 14:24 starts the oracle concerning the Philistines, and it continues through 14:32

Isaiah 15:1 "An oracles concerning Moab" and it continues through 16:14

Isaiah 17:1 "An oracle concerning Damascus" and that continues through 17:14

Isaiah 18:1 starts an oracle concerning Ethiopia and that continues through 18:7

Isaiah 19:1 "An oracle concerning Egypt" and it continues to 20:6

Isaiah 21:1 "The oracle concerning the wilderness of the sea" and it continues to 21:10

Isaiah 21:11 "The oracle concerning Dumah"....   and Isaiah continues with oracles about a number of other places.

I mention all of these oracles so that you will see that there is a pattern here where Isaiah starts an oracle about a nation and the words which follow are about that nation.

Isaiah 14:4 (in the oracle about Babylon) says, "...you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has ceased! How his insolence has ceased!" and the taunt continues verse 5 through verse 21.     Isaiah 14:12-17 of the taunt against the king of Babylon reads "How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart,'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High. But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities...'".  The taunt is a poetic description Isaiah gives referring to the king of Babylon (possibly Nebuchadnezzar) describing his insolence; how he aspired so high, and fell so low.

There is no mystery here....

The KJV translators translate that as "Lucifer, son of the morning", but that is NOT what the Hebrew says. This is just another example (and a very poor one at that) of the KJV translators trying to force a translation that is consistent somehow with their devil/Satan beliefs... but it is not what the Bible in Hebrew actually says. The Hebrew would literally read "How you-fell from-heavens morning-star son-of dawn". The hyphenated words are because Hebrew uses prefixes and suffixes on words where in English we would use separate words.

I would point out that many modern Christian translations translate these verses properly as I have described, similar to "How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of dawn!"

 

 

I agree that the KJV is a poor translation from the original texts. I have found the NIV to be a superior translation.

But I wonder... for one to fall from heavens it is implied that the fallen WAS in heaven. If that is accurate then does this then imply that if the fallen was simply a mortal man, and not an angelic creature, that man was in heaven and was cast down to earth? I'm puzzled.

I read it as to Jesus ....my strongest point is verse 19.[blink][grin]

[skeptical_r_i_2]

Thank you Mazel and Skeptical_R_I_2. Very interesting to learn another viewpoint. I was already aware that satan means adversary, but my concept of Satan (with a capital S) is that he is the supreme or ultimate adversary of G-d and mankind. I am curious, though... according to Jewish teachings, who is Isaiah referring to in chapter 14, verses 12-14?

In this section of Isaiah he is giving several oracles against Israel's enemies.

Isaiah 13:1  "An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw..." and the oracle about Babylon follows until 14:23.

Isaiah 14:24 starts the oracle concerning Assyria, and it continues through 14:27

Isaiah 14:24 starts the oracle concerning the Philistines, and it continues through 14:32

Isaiah 15:1 "An oracles concerning Moab" and it continues through 16:14

Isaiah 17:1 "An oracle concerning Damascus" and that continues through 17:14

Isaiah 18:1 starts an oracle concerning Ethiopia and that continues through 18:7

Isaiah 19:1 "An oracle concerning Egypt" and it continues to 20:6

Isaiah 21:1 "The oracle concerning the wilderness of the sea" and it continues to 21:10

Isaiah 21:11 "The oracle concerning Dumah"....   and Isaiah continues with oracles about a number of other places.

I mention all of these oracles so that you will see that there is a pattern here where Isaiah starts an oracle about a nation and the words which follow are about that nation.

Isaiah 14:4 (in the oracle about Babylon) says, "...you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has ceased! How his insolence has ceased!" and the taunt continues verse 5 through verse 21.     Isaiah 14:12-17 of the taunt against the king of Babylon reads "How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart,'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High. But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities...'".  The taunt is a poetic description Isaiah gives referring to the king of Babylon (possibly Nebuchadnezzar) describing his insolence; how he aspired so high, and fell so low.

There is no mystery here....

The KJV translators translate that as "Lucifer, son of the morning", but that is NOT what the Hebrew says. This is just another example (and a very poor one at that) of the KJV translators trying to force a translation that is consistent somehow with their devil/Satan beliefs... but it is not what the Bible in Hebrew actually says. The Hebrew would literally read "How you-fell from-heavens morning-star son-of dawn". The hyphenated words are because Hebrew uses prefixes and suffixes on words where in English we would use separate words.

I would point out that many modern Christian translations translate these verses properly as I have described, similar to "How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of dawn!"

 

 

I agree that the KJV is a poor translation from the original texts. I have found the NIV to be a superior translation.

But I wonder... for one to fall from heavens it is implied that the fallen WAS in heaven. If that is accurate then does this then imply that if the fallen was simply a mortal man, and not an angelic creature, that man was in heaven and was cast down to earth? I'm puzzled.

You may have noticed that Isaiah, like the other prophets, uses very figurative language when describing things. To describe the arrogance and boastfulness of the Babylonian king, Isaiah uses the same kinds of idioms that we might also use in English. "High" is good, at the "top" of your game, "Down" is bad, you have "sunk low".

In English we use "high" idioms all the time.

Ann was really in seventh heaven when she got a car of her own.

He was on top of the world.

The boss reached for the stars…

I’ve been in Heaven since you told me you loved me.

I moved heaven and earth to get you that interview

Isaiah also used "high" and "low" figures of speech to show how high the king aspired, and how low God brought him: Isaiah 14:13-14

"You said in your heart,'I will ascend to heaven;

I will raise my throne above the stars of God;

I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon;

I will ascend to the tops of the clouds,

I will make myself like the Most High.    

But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit.'"

If you want to take this literally, then where was the Babylon king? In heaven?,  above the stars?, on Mount Zaphon?, on top of the clouds?????  Isaiah is using a lot of figurative speech here.


However, don't take my word for it.  Take Isaiah's words. HE SAYS (so you won't be confused), "...you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has ceased! How his insolence has ceased!... etc."

Isaiah tells you who he is talking about!  What more can I say. The Hebrew words, the Biblical words, are "How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of dawn!"  Those are the Hebrew words.     You say that you like the NIV.  Here is Isaiah 14:4 and Isaiah 14:12 from the NIV, "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! " and "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! "      Maybe if you want to ignore the actual Bible, you could accept your own translation!

Why do you want to ignore what Isaiah actually says ("...this taunt against the king of Babylon") to make him say something he does not say?????