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U.S. Launches Missiles at Syrian Base After Chemical Weapons Attack
Topic Started: Apr 6 2017, 09:20 PM (2,638 Views)
estonianman
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CautionaryTales
Apr 7 2017, 06:35 PM
Siberian
Apr 7 2017, 04:35 PM
frankly saying I personally am a little tired of this clownade, when the US for its domestic entertainment plays with fire and life of millions of people....
If I was Putin I would just launch a dozen of nuclear missiles to some Australia, as retaliation of its participation of occupation of Russia during our civil war :) , not to start WWIII immediately but to make the US behave adult and in a responsible way :)
I just wonder if Putin is as weak as I think or just waits for proper moment to teach Trump a lesson, it is an interesting question....
unfortunatelly I tend to think he's weak. anyway, either way if collision with the US intensifies he will have to either fight or will be replaced by real patriots.
Putin and Trump are partners in this.
It's a stage show, like Cats or Mama Mia.

Where is the evidence?
MEEK AND MILD
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CautionaryTales
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Tsalagi
Apr 6 2017, 09:25 PM
This is rather sudden, and Trump didn't coordinate any action with the Russians, who might very well have been manning posts at either of the two bases we hit tonite.

Well.....there went the 'non-intervention" policy out the window
An update. He did notify the Russians and they (and most Syrians) pulled out of the target zone.
The missiles did little damage to the concrete airstrip and probably only to broken down aircraft.
I saw in the news that the airstrip is back in service today.


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CautionaryTales
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Harambe4Trump
Apr 6 2017, 09:26 PM
He lost my support.
Fashys last post?


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George Aligator
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nNeo
Apr 6 2017, 10:50 PM
jake58
Apr 6 2017, 10:45 PM
To what? It's not like there's a robust democracy over there.
No indeed, that's been the problem all along, there, Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, Libya, etc. We'd love a nice secular liberal democracy, but there's little to develop to that end. 4/5 of the major factions are horrible, including Assad. But that didn't stop us from trying regime change in A-stan, Iraq, various central American countries, and hasn't kept us out of other peoples' civil wars. You'd think we'd learn but...

It might just take killing most of the extremists on both sides and taking over for a while. We could pay for it with oil money or something (think anyone would fall for that again?). If the US, Russia, and a few allies all pitched in we could probably kill all th liberate them.


Disclaimer: please don't take this too seriously. You wanted conspiracy, I'm making one up.
American culture is warped by two delusions. One is the sweeping claim that our notions of human nature, human rights and human society are based on universal, God-created truths. This is a pre-scientific belief long debunked by anthropology. Every society is shaped by its own history and conditions.

The second delusion is the religious belief that Christianity is the one, true faith and that Jesus wants Christians like us to go forth throughout the world, turning people into Christians whether they want to or not. Islam has a parallel delusion which we find despicable, but that is because "our God is the real God and your god is a pagan idol."

These two ego-centric delusions have become stalking horses for predatory capitalist exploitation, covering colonialist aggression with a veil of sanctimonious self-congratulation. The insoluble problem is that the Muslims of Arabia don't buy it, they never have and they never will. We've been trying to convert, subdue and exploit them for five hundred years. It has never worked and it never will.
Conservatism is a social disease
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CautionaryTales
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Ok.. we are in...now what?
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/04/trump_doesn_t_know_what_he_wants_to_do_in_syria.html


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nNeo

George Aligator
Apr 7 2017, 07:38 PM
The insoluble problem is that the Muslims of Arabia don't buy it, they never have and they never will. We've been trying to convert, subdue and exploit them for five hundred years. It has never worked and it never will.
True for all the middle east, and essentially why I've long advocated not intervening there, but especially the case for Syria and Iraq, where the populations not only distrust and dislike westerners, but each other as well. Assad had maybe 20-25% of the country behind him when it was whole. Now half the population are dead or fled, and multiple outside powers are fighting proxy wars on top of the tribal / sectarian divisions that go back centuries. I see no path to a functioning state, and symbolically lobbing missiles in certainly isn't going to help.
Edited by nNeo, Apr 7 2017, 09:23 PM.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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Drudge X
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nNeo
Apr 7 2017, 08:06 PM
George Aligator
Apr 7 2017, 07:38 PM
American culture is warped by two delusions. One is the sweeping claim that our notions of human nature, human rights and human society are based on universal, God-created truths. This is a pre-scientific belief long debunked by anthropology. Every society is shaped by its own history and conditions.

The second delusion is the religious belief that Christianity is the one, true faith and that Jesus wants Christians like us to go forth throughout the world, turning people into Christians whether they want to or not. Islam has a parallel delusion which we find despicable, but that is because "our God is the real God and your god is a pagan idol."

These two ego-centric delusions have become stalking horses for predatory capitalist exploitation, covering colonialist aggression with a veil of sanctimonious self-congratulation. The insoluble problem is that the Muslims of Arabia don't buy it, they never have and they never will. We've been trying to convert, subdue and exploit them for five hundred years. It has never worked and it never will.
True for all the middle east, and essentially why I've long advocated not intervening there, but especially the case for Syria and Iraq, where the populations not only distrust and dislike westerners, but each other as well. Assad had maybe 20-25% of the country behind him when it was whole. Now half the population are dead or fled, and multiple outside powers are fighting proxy wars on top of the tribal / sectarian divisions that go back centuries. I see no path to a functioning state, and symbolically lobbing missiles in certainly isn't going to help.
So you agree with Pat Buchanan as non-interventionist correct?
Kate Steinle was separated from her family permanently but leftists didn't seem to mind.
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nNeo

Drudge X
Apr 7 2017, 08:27 PM
So you agree with Pat Buchanan as non-interventionist correct?
Roughly aligned on that.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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jake58

George Aligator
Apr 7 2017, 07:38 PM
nNeo
Apr 6 2017, 10:50 PM
jake58
Apr 6 2017, 10:45 PM
To what? It's not like there's a robust democracy over there.
No indeed, that's been the problem all along, there, Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, Libya, etc. We'd love a nice secular liberal democracy, but there's little to develop to that end. 4/5 of the major factions are horrible, including Assad. But that didn't stop us from trying regime change in A-stan, Iraq, various central American countries, and hasn't kept us out of other peoples' civil wars. You'd think we'd learn but...

It might just take killing most of the extremists on both sides and taking over for a while. We could pay for it with oil money or something (think anyone would fall for that again?). If the US, Russia, and a few allies all pitched in we could probably kill all th liberate them.


Disclaimer: please don't take this too seriously. You wanted conspiracy, I'm making one up.
American culture is warped by two delusions. One is the sweeping claim that our notions of human nature, human rights and human society are based on universal, God-created truths. This is a pre-scientific belief long debunked by anthropology. Every society is shaped by its own history and conditions.

The second delusion is the religious belief that Christianity is the one, true faith and that Jesus wants Christians like us to go forth throughout the world, turning people into Christians whether they want to or not. Islam has a parallel delusion which we find despicable, but that is because "our God is the real God and your god is a pagan idol."

These two ego-centric delusions have become stalking horses for predatory capitalist exploitation, covering colonialist aggression with a veil of sanctimonious self-congratulation. The insoluble problem is that the Muslims of Arabia don't buy it, they never have and they never will. We've been trying to convert, subdue and exploit them for five hundred years. It has never worked and it never will.
Every culture is warped by these same delusions. It's not an 'American' phenomenon. America has its flaws but in a place where nearly every culture is represented in some form or other, you don't see the continuous hatred of others over marginal differences in their view of God/Allah/whatever. To take Iraq as an example witness the violence of Muslims towards other Muslims over the last 15 years. The Middle East has much deeper problems than some of their oil got taken by the West 75 years ago... and they cottoned onto that pretty quickly. Hate seems to be a natural by product of Islam, hopefully you weren't in Stockholm today... which never had anything to do with ME oil.
That which can be asserted without evidence; can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchens
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nNeo

jake58
Apr 7 2017, 09:00 PM
Every culture is warped by these same delusions. It's not an 'American' phenomenon. America has its flaws but in a place where nearly every culture is represented in some form or other, you don't see the continuous hatred of others over marginal differences in their view of God/Allah/whatever. To take Iraq as an example witness the violence of Muslims towards other Muslims over the last 15 years. The Middle East has much deeper problems than some of their oil got taken by the West 75 years ago... and they cottoned onto that pretty quickly. Hate seems to be a natural by product of Islam, hopefully you weren't in Stockholm today... which never had anything to do with ME oil.
Sure. As George said, "our God is the real God and your god is a pagan idol."

It's tribalism, more broad than Islam. Every culture has it to some degree, but some more than others for various reasons. But the real issues driving the conflict, as with more wars, are economic and geopolitical. Religion and culture are good tools for churning up the masses. Money and power are what drive the leaders.

Bottom line is we can't fix that.
Edited by nNeo, Apr 7 2017, 09:33 PM.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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jake58

nNeo
Apr 7 2017, 09:29 PM
jake58
Apr 7 2017, 09:00 PM
Every culture is warped by these same delusions. It's not an 'American' phenomenon. America has its flaws but in a place where nearly every culture is represented in some form or other, you don't see the continuous hatred of others over marginal differences in their view of God/Allah/whatever. To take Iraq as an example witness the violence of Muslims towards other Muslims over the last 15 years. The Middle East has much deeper problems than some of their oil got taken by the West 75 years ago... and they cottoned onto that pretty quickly. Hate seems to be a natural by product of Islam, hopefully you weren't in Stockholm today... which never had anything to do with ME oil.
Sure. As George said, "our God is the real God and your god is a pagan idol."

It's tribalism, more broad than Islam. Every culture has it to some degree, but some more than others for various reasons. Bottom line is we can't fix that.
I believe george was arguing that we were responsible for what you are calling ME 'tribalism,' it's his way of demeaning capitalism or an involuntary guilt reflex, take your pick. Muslims would be killing other Muslims today whether or not oil existed, culturally they're about 500 years behind... awaiting the Renaissance.
That which can be asserted without evidence; can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchens
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The Inquisitor
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The Trump administration has been noticeably talking a lot to our Middle East allies.
Unfortunately the Middle East has always been a region of some conflict.
I believe that Trump is attempting to get them to sort out their own problems with minimal US involvement.
At the same time assuring them that the US will back them up.
If he could get them all to the table? "doubtful" but worth a try, nothing else has worked so far.
Warning....Leftist's Post Here....Take Precautions
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nNeo

jake58
Apr 7 2017, 09:34 PM
Muslims would be killing other Muslims today whether or not oil existed
Some are and some aren't, but that's not what the war is about. It's a power struggle, both internally and of external powers by proxy. Islam has little to do with it, other than ISIS being fundie nut jobs. But even in there case it's about their tribe sticking it to the dirty Alawites and taking over (money and power) Religion is an excuse.

"God wants us to smite the infidels" always plays better than "let's kill those people and take their stuff". Of course "We must liberate them and spread democracy" or "contain communism" have worked pretty well too ;)

Muslims as a whole have not been notably more violent or warlike than other groups historically. You might as well say "look at all the wars in Europe over the past thousand years. They we Christians, so Christianity must be super violent."

I don't have a shred of guilt about capitalism or whiteness, but George has a valid point about colonialism. Iraq & Syria (and much of the region) were "countries" made up by England and France, with no regard to the wishes of the people living in them, nor good understanding of the tribal and cultural differences. Keeping any country functioning is a chore, but when it's made up of people who never got along and wanted to be autonomous, it's much harder.
Edited by nNeo, Apr 7 2017, 09:58 PM.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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jake58

The Inquisitor
Apr 7 2017, 09:35 PM
The Trump administration has been noticeably talking a lot to our Middle East allies.
Unfortunately the Middle East has always been a region of some conflict.
I believe that Trump is attempting to get them to sort out their own problems with minimal US involvement.
At the same time assuring them that the US will back them up.
If he could get them all to the table? "doubtful" but worth a try, nothing else has worked so far.
I believe that Trump is attempting to get them to sort out their own problems with minimal US involvement.


If I thought Trump was this stupid, I'd be recommending impeachment. There is simply no point to the isolated missile barrage... unless it's aimed at someone in particular. I mean, is the world going to be a demonstrably poorer place without Assad?
That which can be asserted without evidence; can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchens
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nNeo

The Inquisitor
Apr 7 2017, 09:35 PM
The Trump administration has been noticeably talking a lot to our Middle East allies.
Unfortunately the Middle East has always been a region of some conflict.
I believe that Trump is attempting to get them to sort out their own problems with minimal US involvement.
At the same time assuring them that the US will back them up.
If he could get them all to the table? "doubtful" but worth a try, nothing else has worked so far.
Which allies? The Suni militants are backed by Qatar and Saudi Arabia, our "ally" as well as the source of many of the worst terrorists over the past two decades. Israel occupies part of Syria, wants its oil, and has long been at odds with Assad. Russia and Iran support Assad and want to keep him in power. Turkey nominally supports our efforts against both Assad and ISIS, but doesn't want to commit too much, and especially doesn't want to empower the Kurds. The Kurds are fighting ISIS, and should be a real ally (as they helped us against Saddam) but we don't want to help them too much because it would piss off Turkey. Pretty much everyone else in the region hates them.

So even if all these "allies" -- each with conflicting agendas -- could sit down together and negotiate, how can it end in a stable configuration?
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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The Inquisitor
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jake58
Apr 7 2017, 09:44 PM
The Inquisitor
Apr 7 2017, 09:35 PM
The Trump administration has been noticeably talking a lot to our Middle East allies.
Unfortunately the Middle East has always been a region of some conflict.
I believe that Trump is attempting to get them to sort out their own problems with minimal US involvement.
At the same time assuring them that the US will back them up.
If he could get them all to the table? "doubtful" but worth a try, nothing else has worked so far.
I believe that Trump is attempting to get them to sort out their own problems with minimal US involvement.


If I thought Trump was this stupid, I'd be recommending impeachment. There is simply no point to the isolated missile barrage... unless it's aimed at someone in particular. I mean, is the world going to be a demonstrably poorer place without Assad?
A direct attack by the US aimed at killing Assad would be an act of war, illegal and a war crime. :oyvey
Warning....Leftist's Post Here....Take Precautions
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nNeo

jake58
Apr 7 2017, 09:44 PM
There is simply no point to the isolated missile barrage... unless it's aimed at someone in particular. I mean, is the world going to be a demonstrably poorer place without Assad?
Thank you! That's it. If the goal is to take him out, fine, do it. Syria will still me a mess, but with one less piece on the board at least, and the guy IS a monster. But a random bombing does squat. He's not going to give up, and if anything Russia will help him more. Waste of time and potentially greater risk to Americans.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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jake58

nNeo
Apr 7 2017, 09:44 PM
jake58
Apr 7 2017, 09:34 PM
Muslims would be killing other Muslims today whether or not oil existed
Some are and some aren't, but that's not what the war is about. It's a power struggle, both internally and of external powers by proxy. Islam has little to do with it, other than ISIS being fundie nut jobs. But even in there case it's about their tribe sticking it to the dirty Alawites and taking over (money and power) Religion is an excuse.

"God wants us to smite the infidels" always plays better than "let's kill those people and take their stuff". Of course "We must liberate them and spread democracy" or "contain communism" have worked pretty well too ;)

Muslims as a whole have not been notably more violent or warlike than other groups historically. You might as well say "look at all the wars in Europe over the past thousand years. They we Christians, so Christianity must be super violent."
Beg to differ, Syria is a virtual wasteland with a non functioning economy, they're fighting to see who gets to sit on a mountain of rubble when it's over because that's the kind of s**t these peeps fight over.

I'm not talking about 'wars' I'm talking about culture - Stockholm, Berlin, Nice, Paris - this isn't a damaged individual going to the mall with his shotgun, there's a group dynamic behind these acts and that comes directly from radicalized Muslims - and sadly, you can't tell the peaceful ones from the violent ones.
That which can be asserted without evidence; can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchens
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jake58

The Inquisitor
Apr 7 2017, 09:51 PM
jake58
Apr 7 2017, 09:44 PM
The Inquisitor
Apr 7 2017, 09:35 PM
The Trump administration has been noticeably talking a lot to our Middle East allies.
Unfortunately the Middle East has always been a region of some conflict.
I believe that Trump is attempting to get them to sort out their own problems with minimal US involvement.
At the same time assuring them that the US will back them up.
If he could get them all to the table? "doubtful" but worth a try, nothing else has worked so far.
I believe that Trump is attempting to get them to sort out their own problems with minimal US involvement.


If I thought Trump was this stupid, I'd be recommending impeachment. There is simply no point to the isolated missile barrage... unless it's aimed at someone in particular. I mean, is the world going to be a demonstrably poorer place without Assad?
A direct attack by the US aimed at killing Assad would be an act of war, illegal and a war crime. :oyvey
I don't believe killing a war criminal is a war crime. We went after Ghaddafi as I recall for actions against American forces. Really, who's going to be pissed off other than the Russians and only because he is supposedly under their protection.
That which can be asserted without evidence; can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchens
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nNeo

jake58
Apr 7 2017, 09:55 PM
Stockholm, Berlin, Nice, Paris - this isn't a damaged individual going to the mall with his shotgun, there's a group dynamic behind these acts and that comes directly from radicalized Muslims
That's a VERY specific subset, not the religion as a whole. Sadly our Saudi "allies" are especially well stocked with that variety.
jake58
Apr 7 2017, 09:55 PM
sadly, you can't tell the peaceful ones from the violent ones.

Often you can tell if you know what you're looking for. Most westerners don't know one from the other, heck, barely know Muslims from Sikhs, which is another reason not to get involved. Not our area, not our fight. If they can't work it out, how can we?
Edited by nNeo, Apr 7 2017, 10:07 PM.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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