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'The brutal military repression has united us all’ – Catalonia MEP
Topic Started: Oct 6 2017, 11:58 PM (546 Views)
Siberian
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Madrid’s crackdown on Catalonia following its independence referendum only “unified” people, Catalan European Democratic party MEP Ramon Tremosa told RT, adding that those who are really divided over the issue are Spaniards, not Catalonians.

https://www.rt.com/news/405918-catalonia-referendum-spain-violence/
Goood morning GULAG!!!
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Siberian
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yet I hear his voice trembling of fear... If Spain demonstrates at least minimum resolve it will stay united.
Catalan leaders are not real revolutionaries or leaders at all.. they just wanted a bigger pie from Madrid. with every day of non-declaration of independence chances for independence decrease...
Goood morning GULAG!!!
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Siberian
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and, by the way, Catalonia is absolutely a precedent and a trigger of Parade of sovereignities which we will definitely see in next couple of years, or at least attempts of it. Smaller nations loved the idea of "Europe of regions" within a Jar's yutopian concept that the EU is not a temporary colonial empire of Germany but the next step in evolution of states and human beings, life of which he understands. :) What is the difference if we all are EU members and the EU will take care of us. It won't, but common people don't get it..
But this utopia, the EU itself - became a strongest catalyst for desintegration of Historical states of Europe. And before desintegrating itself it infects member states which are going to desintegrate even before the EU itself collapses. In the end we will see another Feodal Europe of the Middle ages with a hundred of mini-states....

This is the reason Catalan leaders are a subject of immense pressure from all sides now. I doubt they are not threatened with anything at all, including phisical extermination. And I consider chances of Catalonia to declare independence as small.
Caralonia will most probably sink in own crisis, its leaders will not dare to declare independence and then people wil first be angry and then, there will be certain destabilization, but after a massive campaign of fear promotion in press - will calm down.
We saw it in Greece already, when it elected Tsipras. Where is he now? Where is Greeces' Grexit?

This is my risky prediction, on the very brink of Declaration of sovereignity of Catalonia, when 98% of people think Catalonia will do it. Do you agree with 98%?

Let us see if I am an official genius of this forum or still there are chances that I may be wrong? :) I am interested myself, I am still not fully sure of ourse, I admit there are still chances they will go for it.... maybe 15%.... no vthis time I think.. before successful Brexit tgere was an unsuccessful Grexit. History rarely goes fast...
Edited by Siberian, Oct 7 2017, 12:31 AM.
Goood morning GULAG!!!
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Robert Stout
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Siberian
Oct 7 2017, 12:21 AM
and, by the way, Catalonia is absolutely a precedent and a trigger of Parade of sovereignities which we will definitely see in next couple of years, or at least attempts of it. Smaller nations loved the idea of "Europe of regions" within a Jar's yutopian concept that the EU is not a temporary colonial empire of Germany but the next step in evolution of states and human beings, life of which he understands. :) What is the difference if we all are EU members and the EU will take care of us. It won't, but common people don't get it..
But this utopia, the EU itself - became a strongest catalyst for desintegration of Historical states of Europe. And before desintegrating itself it infects member states which are going to desintegrate even before the EU itself collapses. In the end we will see another Feodal Europe of the Middle ages with a hundred of mini-states....

This is the reason Catalan leaders are a subject of immense pressure from all sides now. I doubt they are not threatened with anything at all, including phisical extermination. And I consider chances of Catalonia to declare independence as small.
Caralonia will most probably sink in own crisis, its leaders will not dare to declare independence and then people wil first be angry and then, there will be certain destabilization, but after a massive campaign of fear promotion in press - will calm down.
We saw it in Greece already, when it elected Tsipras. Where is he now? Where is Greeces' Grexit?

This is my risky prediction, on the very brink of Declaration of sovereignity of Catalonia, when 98% of people think Catalonia will do it. Do you agree with 98%?

Let us see if I am an official genius of this forum or still there are chances that I may be wrong? :) I am interested myself, I am still not fully sure of ourse, I admit there are still chances they will go for it.... maybe 15%.... no vthis time I think.. before successful Brexit tgere was an unsuccessful Grexit. History rarely goes fast...
The Catalon war of independence will not start until Spanish officials are killed in Barcelona....There is no revolution without a body count.............. :machinegun:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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Hughmac

OK, the Catalan Government is made up of the rump of a deceased party that collapse owing to endemic corruption (3% Scandal). This residual party, a right-wing nationalist part, won the elections (such is democracy) but fell short of two seats to obtain a workable majority parliament. So, as no mainstream party would have anything to do with them, they formed a coalition government with the CUP, which is an extremist, left-wing, anarchist party (strange bedfellows). The main partners in the government being led round by the nose by the anarchists and a grateful for the distraction of independence to keep the limelight off their corruption woes. The CUP only agreed to form a coalition if the CiU dropped their party leader, Arturo Mas, which they did and an obscure political figure, a mere mayor, was chosen as regional Prime Minister.

Cataluña, before this even started, was deep in the economic crap with S&P given them a government bond rating of "trash", on a par with failed African states. So they Catalan separatists have been peddling "Spain robs us," which is bollocks, because even at the moment the Central Government is lending them money, left right and centre, because the Catalan regional government can't get a penny in credit from anybody.

Enter stage left, the Central Government, headed by the completely corrupt conservative PP party under Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who, like his Catalan counterpart, is over the moon with this distraction from his own party's corruption problems, which are immense and in any other democratic country in the world, would have resulted in his immediate resignation - but not our Mariano.

Mariano is from Galicia, famed for laconic utterances and honed lassitude. Mariano has demonstrated over the years that his favourite tactic is to sit back, shut up, and twiddle his thumbs until: A) the problems sorts itself out, B) somebody else sorts it out for him, C) hold up until the next elections and wait for the die-hard, rightwing, Franco-nostaligic voters get him back into power.

Mariano will go down in history as being the most efficient factory for churning out independence supporters.

So the stage is set; on the one hand we have a utterly corrupt party governing in Madrid and a completely corrupt party governing in Barcelona both turning up the heat so that the average Spaniard (and I include Catalans) will put their energy into flag waving instead of red-card waving.

The laughable reference to "brutal military repression" is exactly that, a rib-splitting idiocy, fruit of almost Stalanist-style propaganda? Where is the military intervention??? The Guardia Civil? a paramilitary police force - the most efficient police in Spain and equivalent to the Italian Carabinieri? (many rightwing Americans might want to look up Carabinieri and probably "Italy")

The riot police incident came about because the Spanish Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy, had repeatedly bleated "there will be no referendum; there will be not voting urns" so, when the 1st of October came and there were indeed voting urns and electoral colleges, he didn't want to look stupid (more stupid than he already does) and panicked. The Catalan regional police were supposed to lock down all the schools (schools are used as voting centres) by 5am Sunday morning. The Guardia Civil were to go in afterwards and confiscate any urns found on these premises. But the Catalan police, had been ordered to do nothing and instead stood around and had breakfast in the bars with the voting centre staff. So, the Guardia turned up at 08.00h and found the schools open and with people already inside and voting. The Guardia Civil officers on the spot contacted the Minister of the Interior to find out what they should do, and a message came down the line saying, stop the voting and confiscate the urns.

Why? Because Mariano didn't want to lose face after having droned on about there never going to be a referendum of voting urns, so he threw the Guardia Civil under the bus, pushing them into an impossible situation. What Mariano should have done - and everybody agrees - was to have told the Guardia Civil to stand down and let the people vote. It was already clear that the referendum was completely without legal validity, both on a national and international level, so let them vote.

That's brutal military repression??? There were two police forces attempting to prevent the voting: the Guardia Civil and the Policia Nacional, the latter being completely civilian. There should have been three police forces, but the regional police bugged out.

OK folks, that's enough for now but I will post more if anybody is interested because there is a whole lot more to this.

Cheers
Hughmac
Edited by Hughmac, Oct 9 2017, 10:35 AM.
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George Aligator
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Hughmac
Oct 9 2017, 10:28 AM
OK, the Catalan Government is made up of the rump of a deceased party that collapse owing to endemic corruption (3% Scandal). This residual party, a right-wing nationalist part, won the elections (such is democracy) but fell short of two seats to obtain a workable majority parliament. So, as no mainstream party would have anything to do with them, they formed a coalition government with the CUP, which is an extremist, left-wing, anarchist party (strange bedfellows). The main partners in the government being led round by the nose by the anarchists and a grateful for the distraction of independence to keep the limelight off their corruption woes. The CUP only agreed to form a coalition if the CiU dropped their party leader, Arturo Mas, which they did and an obscure political figure, a mere mayor, was chosen as regional Prime Minister.

Cataluña, before this even started, was deep in the economic crap with S&P given them a government bond rating of "trash", on a par with failed African states. So they Catalan separatists have been peddling "Spain robs us," which is bollocks, because even at the moment the Central Government is lending them money, left right and centre, because the Catalan regional government can't get a penny in credit from anybody.

Enter stage left, the Central Government, headed by the completely corrupt conservative PP party under Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who, like his Catalan counterpart, is over the moon with this distraction from his own party's corruption problems, which are immense and in any other democratic country in the world, would have resulted in his immediate resignation - but not our Mariano.

Mariano is from Galicia, famed for laconic utterances and honed lassitude. Mariano has demonstrated over the years that his favourite tactic is to sit back, shut up, and twiddle his thumbs until: A) the problems sorts itself out, B) somebody else sorts it out for him, C) hold up until the next elections and wait for the die-hard, rightwing, Franco-nostaligic voters get him back into power.

Mariano will go down in history as being the most efficient factory for churning out independence supporters.

So the stage is set; on the one hand we have a utterly corrupt party governing in Madrid and a completely corrupt party governing in Barcelona both turning up the heat so that the average Spaniard (and I include Catalans) will put their energy into flag waving instead of red-card waving.

The laughable reference to "brutal military repression" is exactly that, a rib-splitting idiocy, fruit of almost Stalanist-style propaganda? Where is the military intervention??? The Guardia Civil? a paramilitary police force - the most efficient police in Spain and equivalent to the Italian Carabinieri? (many rightwing Americans might want to look up Carabinieri and probably "Italy")

The riot police incident came about because the Spanish Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy, had repeatedly bleated "there will be no referendum; there will be not voting urns" so, when the 1st of October came and there were indeed voting urns and electoral colleges, he didn't want to look stupid (more stupid than he already does) and panicked. The Catalan regional police were supposed to lock down all the schools (schools are used as voting centres) by 5am Sunday morning. The Guardia Civil were to go in afterwards and confiscate any urns found on these premises. But the Catalan police, had been ordered to do nothing and instead stood around and had breakfast in the bars with the voting centre staff. So, the Guardia turned up at 08.00h and found the schools open and with people already inside and voting. The Guardia Civil officers on the spot contacted the Minister of the Interior to find out what they should do, and a message came down the line saying, stop the voting and confiscate the urns.

Why? Because Mariano didn't want to lose face after having droned on about there never going to be a referendum of voting urns, so he threw the Guardia Civil under the bus, pushing them into an impossible situation. What Mariano should have done - and everybody agrees - was to have told the Guardia Civil to stand down and let the people vote. It was already clear that the referendum was completely without legal validity, both on a national and international level, so let them vote.

That's brutal military repression??? There were two police forces attempting to prevent the voting: the Guardia Civil and the Policia Nacional, the latter being completely civilian. There should have been three police forces, but the regional police bugged out.

OK folks, that's enough for now but I will post more if anybody is interested because there is a whole lot more to this.

Cheers
Hughmac
Where is the Church in all this?
Death to the enemies among us! Pity is treason
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Hughmac

George Aligator
Oct 9 2017, 10:42 AM
Hughmac
Oct 9 2017, 10:28 AM
OK, the Catalan Government is made up of the rump of a deceased party that collapse owing to endemic corruption (3% Scandal). This residual party, a right-wing nationalist part, won the elections (such is democracy) but fell short of two seats to obtain a workable majority parliament. So, as no mainstream party would have anything to do with them, they formed a coalition government with the CUP, which is an extremist, left-wing, anarchist party (strange bedfellows). The main partners in the government being led round by the nose by the anarchists and a grateful for the distraction of independence to keep the limelight off their corruption woes. The CUP only agreed to form a coalition if the CiU dropped their party leader, Arturo Mas, which they did and an obscure political figure, a mere mayor, was chosen as regional Prime Minister.

Cataluña, before this even started, was deep in the economic crap with S&P given them a government bond rating of "trash", on a par with failed African states. So they Catalan separatists have been peddling "Spain robs us," which is bollocks, because even at the moment the Central Government is lending them money, left right and centre, because the Catalan regional government can't get a penny in credit from anybody.

Enter stage left, the Central Government, headed by the completely corrupt conservative PP party under Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who, like his Catalan counterpart, is over the moon with this distraction from his own party's corruption problems, which are immense and in any other democratic country in the world, would have resulted in his immediate resignation - but not our Mariano.

Mariano is from Galicia, famed for laconic utterances and honed lassitude. Mariano has demonstrated over the years that his favourite tactic is to sit back, shut up, and twiddle his thumbs until: A) the problems sorts itself out, B) somebody else sorts it out for him, C) hold up until the next elections and wait for the die-hard, rightwing, Franco-nostaligic voters get him back into power.

Mariano will go down in history as being the most efficient factory for churning out independence supporters.

So the stage is set; on the one hand we have a utterly corrupt party governing in Madrid and a completely corrupt party governing in Barcelona both turning up the heat so that the average Spaniard (and I include Catalans) will put their energy into flag waving instead of red-card waving.

The laughable reference to "brutal military repression" is exactly that, a rib-splitting idiocy, fruit of almost Stalanist-style propaganda? Where is the military intervention??? The Guardia Civil? a paramilitary police force - the most efficient police in Spain and equivalent to the Italian Carabinieri? (many rightwing Americans might want to look up Carabinieri and probably "Italy")

The riot police incident came about because the Spanish Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy, had repeatedly bleated "there will be no referendum; there will be not voting urns" so, when the 1st of October came and there were indeed voting urns and electoral colleges, he didn't want to look stupid (more stupid than he already does) and panicked. The Catalan regional police were supposed to lock down all the schools (schools are used as voting centres) by 5am Sunday morning. The Guardia Civil were to go in afterwards and confiscate any urns found on these premises. But the Catalan police, had been ordered to do nothing and instead stood around and had breakfast in the bars with the voting centre staff. So, the Guardia turned up at 08.00h and found the schools open and with people already inside and voting. The Guardia Civil officers on the spot contacted the Minister of the Interior to find out what they should do, and a message came down the line saying, stop the voting and confiscate the urns.

Why? Because Mariano didn't want to lose face after having droned on about there never going to be a referendum of voting urns, so he threw the Guardia Civil under the bus, pushing them into an impossible situation. What Mariano should have done - and everybody agrees - was to have told the Guardia Civil to stand down and let the people vote. It was already clear that the referendum was completely without legal validity, both on a national and international level, so let them vote.

That's brutal military repression??? There were two police forces attempting to prevent the voting: the Guardia Civil and the Policia Nacional, the latter being completely civilian. There should have been three police forces, but the regional police bugged out.

OK folks, that's enough for now but I will post more if anybody is interested because there is a whole lot more to this.

Cheers
Hughmac
Where is the Church in all this?
Ah, the blessed Church. Right, as in the case of the Basque lands, ground-floor priests tend to be more left-wing activists, so we had the case where a church was used, during a sham morning service, to count votes, right there in front of the altar. However, the Spanish Council of Bishops and the Vatican side with the Central Government.

You see, the trouble with stopping this Referendum was that not only did it deny the pro-independence supporters from voting in favour, but it also stopped the loyalists from doing voting against it, as well, so you have the situation where both sides in Cataluña want the right to decide; not just the people asking for independence. Put another way: the majority of Catalanes want a referendum, but the majority of pro-referendum supporters are not pro-independence.

The referendum results are a farce. They say 90% want independence and there was a 42% turn out. First of all, if there are no official figures because the voting was not controlled at all, how can you give results. People were filmed voting several times, even standing outside the voting centres putting on make up to disguise the fact that they had already voted. In other centres people saw that the urns already had voting ballots inside before the first person had even voted. There is also footage of one voting-urn (ballot box) sitting on a street with a crowd gathered around just stuffing it with votes!!!

The Catalan 2nd-in-command has already admitted that Cataluña doesn't have the means in place to be independent, lacking just about everything: no border control, no currency, no nothing. It's a joke.

The Central Government is probably going to invoke Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution and suspend the region's autonomy.

The only way out is for immediate regional elections so that a bone-fide vote taking can be brought about, with guaranteed voting conditions. And while there at it, they should also hold national elections as well, as the political heads, both in Madrid and in Barcelona, who have brought us to the ridiculous situation should both be dismissed.

Any other questions, Mr GA?

Cheers
Hughmac

Edited by Hughmac, Oct 9 2017, 11:05 AM.
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Hughmac

dp
Edited by Hughmac, Oct 9 2017, 11:06 AM.
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George Aligator
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No further questions at this time, I thank you for your informed and informative presentation.

Spain wasn't unified by referendum so it may not be wise for it to be severed by the modern fad of asking Fulano de Tal what to do with the country. Ferdinand and Isabella couldn't have gotten a divorce if they had wanted to, so perhaps the same rule should apply to the baby, España.

Like the Scots and others, the Catalans want their own gemeinschaft state as a buffer against the increasing inroads of the gesellschaft ideologies pushed by the new mass media. We all want to go home, but as the novelist Tom Wolfe said, you can't go home again.

It's good to read your ideas here on the troll farm. I hope you will post more and soon.

Su afmo - GA
Death to the enemies among us! Pity is treason
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W A Mozart
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Quote:
 
.."It was already clear that the referendum was completely without legal validity, both on a national and international level, so let them vote."


"Legal validity" as determined by whom? Is ANY vote on separation and/or independence a 'legal' vote? This is BIG stuff here. There are regions and locals all over Europe looking to get small. We don't want big government; we want to rule ourselves. Forget Brussels. Forget Madrid. This will be a coming trend. This all has to do with immigration, perhaps not in Catalonia, yet, but in most of Europe. When historians look back on the ruins of Europe, say 50 years from now, they will focus their attention at 'ground zero,' the formation of that massive bureaucracy in Brussels, the EU. It started with Helmut Kohl and the insanity that took place in the 1990's after the wall came down. While staring-up at the thousands of minarets dominating the European skyline the remnants of a European civilization will wonder in amazement as to how they somehow ceded all of their legitimate power to a bunch of loopy bureaucrats in Brussels, whom they knew nothing about. Today, Catalonia is merely reacting to BIG government and faceless bureaucrats. More power to regional governments will be a coming trend all over Europe. It's a last-ditch effort for people to protect their identities, their culture and their children's future.

Catalonia? This is just the beginning.


Mozart
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Hughmac

W A Mozart
Oct 9 2017, 11:18 AM
Quote:
 
.."It was already clear that the referendum was completely without legal validity, both on a national and international level, so let them vote."


"Legal validity" as determined by whom?
No legal validity according to the Spanish Constitution of 1978; like you own, it is the source of all legal validity. If the Constitution does not permit a referendum on a regional level; only on a national one, then it must be a nationwide referendum or amend the Constitution. Therefore, the 1st of October referendum has not legal validity.

I personally am in favour of the Catalanes being able to hold a referendum - they should be afforded that right, by the way, yet may they not get a majority "Yes" vote, because it will only bring them misery.

Europe can only hope to compete in tomorrow's world as a unified entity; they is no hope for one-horse national entities in the competition for trade and resources against the Asian super powers.

Cheers
Hughmac

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Harambe4Trump
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Hughmac
Oct 9 2017, 11:33 AM
W A Mozart
Oct 9 2017, 11:18 AM
Quote:
 
.."It was already clear that the referendum was completely without legal validity, both on a national and international level, so let them vote."


"Legal validity" as determined by whom?
No legal validity according to the Spanish Constitution of 1978; like you own, it is the source of all legal validity. If the Constitution does not permit a referendum on a regional level; only on a national one, then it must be a nationwide referendum or amend the Constitution. Therefore, the 1st of October referendum has not legal validity.

I personally am in favour of the Catalanes being able to hold a referendum - they should be afforded that right, by the way, yet may they not get a majority "Yes" vote, because it will only bring them misery.

Europe can only hope to compete in tomorrow's world as a unified entity; they is no hope for one-horse national entities in the competition for trade and resources against the Asian super powers.

Cheers
Hughmac

Somehow, scrappy Taiwan, Japan, and S Korea get along fine without sacrificing their sovereignty to faceless supranational authorities
Can anyone answer this simple question?

Why is it that 94% of mass shootings are perpetrated by people who have either identified or registered as a Democrat?
#MAGA
#wallsnotwars
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Hughmac

W A Mozart
Oct 9 2017, 11:18 AM
Quote:
 
.."It was already clear that the referendum was completely without legal validity, both on a national and international level, so let them vote."


...We don't want big government
Here we go! It doesn't matter what is happening or where ever it is in the world, our right-wing US poster just HAVE to turn it in to about them. It's got nothing to do with big government Mozzie or crazy right-wing, American fantasies, this is about 30 years of propaganda coming out of nationalist Catalan parties.

You want an example of what is really happening in Cataluña. Here you go!

Some 200 school children at the Instituto El Palau in Sant Andreu de la Barca demonstrated outside their school against the bullying of Guardia Civil children at the school. It took place at 08.00h in the morning with the protesters refusing to enter.

What had led to this was the fact that some teachers had singled out pupils with parents serving in the Guardia Civil before their classmates, putting them in an impossible situation where they had to choose between defending their parents or confronting the teachers and their own classmates.


http://www.theseasidegazette.com/2017/10/47810/children-defending-children/

Cheers
Hughmac
Edited by Hughmac, Oct 9 2017, 11:47 AM.
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Hughmac

George Aligator
Oct 9 2017, 11:15 AM
No further questions at this time, I thank you for your informed and informative presentation.

Spain wasn't unified by referendum so it may not be wise for it to be severed by the modern fad of asking Fulano de Tal what to do with the country. Ferdinand and Isabella couldn't have gotten a divorce if they had wanted to, so perhaps the same rule should apply to the baby, España.

Like the Scots and others, the Catalans want their own gemeinschaft state as a buffer against the increasing inroads of the gesellschaft ideologies pushed by the new mass media. We all want to go home, but as the novelist Tom Wolfe said, you can't go home again.

It's good to read your ideas here on the troll farm. I hope you will post more and soon.

Su afmo - GA
You're welcome, Mr GA ;-) - H
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W A Mozart
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Hughmac
Oct 9 2017, 11:33 AM
W A Mozart
Oct 9 2017, 11:18 AM
Quote:
 
.."It was already clear that the referendum was completely without legal validity, both on a national and international level, so let them vote."


"Legal validity" as determined by whom?
No legal validity according to the Spanish Constitution of 1978; like you own, it is the source of all legal validity. If the Constitution does not permit a referendum on a regional level; only on a national one, then it must be a nationwide referendum or amend the Constitution. Therefore, the 1st of October referendum has not legal validity.

I personally am in favour of the Catalanes being able to hold a referendum - they should be afforded that right, by the way, yet may they not get a majority "Yes" vote, because it will only bring them misery.

Europe can only hope to compete in tomorrow's world as a unified entity; they is no hope for one-horse national entities in the competition for trade and resources against the Asian super powers.

Cheers
Hughmac

Quote:
 
..."Europe can only hope to compete in tomorrow's world as a unified entity; they is no hope for one-horse national entities in the competition for trade and resources against the Asian super powers."


Nonsense. That's a fallacy often cited by EU bureaucrats looking for excuses to keep their 250K per year salaries. What about Switzerland? They're not in the EU. Doing just fine, thank you. Furthermore, it is the elimination of trade barriers which is important, not open borders. We don't need the EU for that. It would seem to me this argument is the very same that was made by the British socialists/liberals/commies on exiting the EU, Brexit. One of the absolute best documentaries on exiting Brexit was this one, made 6 months prior to the vote.

A must view... Find some time late in the day, pour yourself an exquisite, amber-colored Spanish brandy (I'm so jealous of anyone living in Spanish paradise.... :) ), put your feet up and pay attention to the points being made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

Mozart
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estonianman
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Now the left is saying the Russians are behind Catalonia's independence movement.

They can't help themselves from being stuck on stupid.
Edited by estonianman, Oct 9 2017, 12:43 PM.
Communism sounds good on paper unless you are reading a history book
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Hughmac

W A Mozart
Oct 9 2017, 12:32 PM
Hughmac
Oct 9 2017, 11:33 AM
W A Mozart
Oct 9 2017, 11:18 AM
Quote:
 
.."It was already clear that the referendum was completely without legal validity, both on a national and international level, so let them vote."


"Legal validity" as determined by whom?
No legal validity according to the Spanish Constitution of 1978; like you own, it is the source of all legal validity. If the Constitution does not permit a referendum on a regional level; only on a national one, then it must be a nationwide referendum or amend the Constitution. Therefore, the 1st of October referendum has not legal validity.

I personally am in favour of the Catalanes being able to hold a referendum - they should be afforded that right, by the way, yet may they not get a majority "Yes" vote, because it will only bring them misery.

Europe can only hope to compete in tomorrow's world as a unified entity; they is no hope for one-horse national entities in the competition for trade and resources against the Asian super powers.

Cheers
Hughmac

Quote:
 
..."Europe can only hope to compete in tomorrow's world as a unified entity; they is no hope for one-horse national entities in the competition for trade and resources against the Asian super powers."


Nonsense. That's a fallacy often cited by EU bureaucrats looking for excuses to keep their 250K per year salaries. What about Switzerland? They're not in the EU. Doing just fine, thank you. Furthermore, it is the elimination of trade barriers which is important, not open borders. We don't need the EU for that. It would seem to me this argument is the very same that was made by the British socialists/liberals/commies on exiting the EU, Brexit. One of the absolute best documentaries on exiting Brexit was this one, made 6 months prior to the vote.

A must view... Find some time late in the day, pour yourself an exquisite, amber-colored Spanish brandy (I'm so jealous of anyone living in Spanish paradise.... :) ), put your feet up and pay attention to the points being made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

Mozart
Switzerland is doing fine because it's sitting on everybody else's money, which is why nobody touched it during WW2. Too many fat cats have secret accounts there; Jorde Pujol (ex-Prime Minister of the Catalan Government) and most of the top dogs in Mariano Rajoy's party, just to start with: Google Barcenas.

Cataluña has just under 7 million inhabitants - fewer if they go independent - have no currency, no embassies, no fiscal system, no defence (unlike the Swiss) and are completely broke. The two Catalan flagship banks, Caixa and Sabadell, have pulled out, and Natural gas (Fenosa) along with a whole string of other. They're completely xxxxed even if the Spaniards tell them to feck off and be independent. Nobody speaks Catalan outside their borders.

Why is it always so uphill explaining anything to right-wing Americans, Mozzie?

The majority of Catalans don't want to be independent. You've got a regional government with only 42% of votes in the last election deciding that 100% of Catalans are going to have their nationality taken away from them. This isn't Iraqi Kurdistan where the majority are behind it; it's a completely different set up.

Cheers
Hughmac
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Siberian
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Hughmac, thanks for review :)

much less an event than a successful separatist referendum has been used and not once to spin a full scale coup or revolution - a political technology used by CIA numerous times for the last 15 years.
But now in Spain CIA obviously plays on the Spanish side, and putting Russian involvement nonsense aside - are there forces capable of organizing and financing another "colored revolution"? any revolution or even a noticable and long prilotests needs quite a logistics and big money. Camping tents, food, molotov xxxxtails, speakers, radio, propaganda banners, leaflets, NGO activists etc.
Big busines maybe? anyone except big (biggest?) part of the people?
Edited by Siberian, Oct 9 2017, 01:59 PM.
Goood morning GULAG!!!
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Hughmac

Siberian
Oct 9 2017, 01:49 PM
Hughmac, thanks for review :)

much less an event than a successful separatist referendum has been used and not once to spin a full scale coup or revolution - a political technology used by CIA numerous times for the last 15 years.
But now in Spain CIA obviously plays on the Spanish side, and putting Russian involvement nonsense aside - are there forces capable of organizing and financing another "colored revolution"? any revolution or even a noticable and long prilotests needs quite a logistics and big money. Camping tents, food, molotov xxxxtails, speakers, radio, propaganda banners, leaflets, NGO activists etc.
Big busines maybe? anyone except big (biggest?) part of the people?
Thanks and you're welcome.

No, they have basically admitted that they're not ready for independence, having nothing really in place. Even the Spanish left-wing are against it. The new left-wing Podemos party, born from street protests a few years ago against government cuts, has stated categorically that they do not want Catalan independence - they want the Constitution changed, yes, so that there can be a proper referendum and they want a vote of no confidence against Rajoy.

My cousin, a Scot, who has lived as many years as I have in Spain, but who lives in Gerona (Cataluña) is an ardent separatist - he wants and independent Scotland, too. Surprisingly, he thinks that Brits are made for voting in favour of Brexit but wants Catalan independence - he cannot see the irony of it and when pointed out to him, says that "it's different." He's my Cuz and I love him dearly, and just like his father - my uncle - a rebel. God bless you Uncle Bern, up in your Red-Cap Para heaven. Uncle Bern respected Germans but killed them and hated Americans but only beat them up and stole their jeeps :tongue:

I digress...

The majority of CuP supporters (the junior partner of the Catalan, right-wing nationalist party coalition) is basically make up of hoodies, who have spent the previous years as vandals and hooligans, but who have now found themselves a cause and are hailed as heroes. That is the core of the independence movement.

There are no backers, anywhere, outside their borders. Yes, the international press made a fest of the images of the Guardia Civil carrying out baton charges - unlike American police, they didn't shot or kill anybody, however.

But there has been so much blatant propaganda coming out of the independent movement: one woman claimed before the world's press that the Guardia Civil had broken all of her fingers. Trouble was, the footage of the guardsman grabbing her arm clearly showed that it was the other hand to the bandaged one that she had held up to the press. She later broke down and confessed that only one of her fingers was damaged and it hadn't been caused by the policeman.

The world press didn't show the police barricaded up into a house waiting for the regional police to pull back the attackers, neither did it show those hoodies throwing barriers and other street furniture at the police, baiting them to react. This is just like the Basque Lands all over again - or at least, we're afraid that this is where it is heading: neck-shots, bombs, kidnappings and 'revolutionary tax' levied on small and medium businesses by terrorists.

No mention was made either that on the 25th of May several years back the Catalan police carried out several acts of police brutality against peaceful demonstrators in a nationwide sit-in. Only in Cataluña did the police react in this way. Now, suddenly, they're heroes - absolute bollocks.

There is no foreign interference and everybody from the IMF to the Pope is against a UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence).

Pro-Union demonstrations were slow to start but they are now massive, not only in Cataluña, but across all of Spain.

Let me sum it up thus: the senior party in the Catalan coalition government, hounded by the judiciary and receiving constant blows for corruption, decided to play the independence card to both court the anarchist CuP and turn the spot light off their problems, but they never, ever expected to get this far and now they're s**t scared and back-peddling.

Yes, they've got the tiger by its tail and are too scared to let go. They know that as a party they are going to crash and burn, but they're hoping against all odds that somebody, somewhere, will pull their chestnuts out of the fire for them, which is why they are now saying that they want third-party mediation. CuP is smelling a rat and won't let them get away with bugging out, though.

Cheers
Hughmac
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Hughmac

Latest developments.

1) The CuP are threatening the PDK (senior partner) that they won't accept a back down from them.

2) The Mayor of Barcelona, a left-wing activist who rose from being a spokeswoman in a street protest against home evictions to the most powerful Mayor in Cataluña, has just stated that the Referendum results do not justify a UDI but what they do justify are mediation talks to come to a compromise.

3) The two flag-ship, emblematic Catalan banking giants, Caixa and Sabadell have just announced that they are not only moving their head offices (sede social) out of Cataluña but are also changing their company tax office (sede fiscal), shifting out of the region.

4) CuP activists moved down into Valencia, in the neighbouring region to disrupt the regional fiesta day, where they clashed with right-wing extremists using Nazi salutes. The police tried to keep both troublemaking parties away from peaceful Valencianos trying to celebrate their festival day.

5) The Catalan Prime Minister is going to address the regional parliament tomorrow where it is believe he will either declare a UDI or back-down. The Central Govern said that it will enact Article 155 of the Constitution and suspend the regional parliament if he does go for an UDI.

6) The Catalan Supreme Court has just requested that the Policia Nacional protect their installations tomorrow, instead of the Policia Catalan, whom they do not trust with the task.

Cheers
Hughmac
Edited by Hughmac, Oct 9 2017, 04:00 PM.
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