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Why Christians Must Support Gun Control; “What does God want?”
Topic Started: Nov 12 2017, 05:49 PM (469 Views)
George Aligator
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Christianity demands action. It insists on the protection of the innocent. In the 13th century, St. Thomas Aquinas justified war in self-defense, but he also opposed the killing of innocent civilians. “Aquinas holds that causing the death of innocents in a foreseeable manner, whether intentionally or indirectly,” according to the Cambridge divinity scholar Daniel H. Weiss, “is never justified.”

And yet Christian evangelicals, particularly white Southern Baptists, have generally parted ways with Catholics on gun laws. Some are simply politically opposed to gun control because they are Republicans; others understandably distrust a society that does not seem to embrace God. But that opposition is crumbling. While six in 10 evangelical leaders report living in a household with a gun, nearly as many, 55 percent, favor stricter gun laws, according to an August survey by the National Association of Evangelicals.

“They accept the Second Amendment,” said Leith Anderson, president of the National Association of Evangelicals when the survey results were released. But they “also deeply grieve when weapons are used to take innocent lives.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/opinion/sunday/christians-support-gun-control.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-top-region&region=opinion-c-col-top-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-top-region&_r=0
Conservatism is a social disease
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Robertr2000
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Jesus supports your right to fight tyranny and self defense. It's God given.

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"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
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George Aligator
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A "right" to insurrection and self-defense whether natural of God-given isn't really Biblical concept. The OT is focused on the law as a duty and the later books, detailing the rise of the kingdom of Israel under David and Solomon celebrate an expansionist, absolute monarchy, not citizens' rights.

The tales of the NT describe seething insurrection against foreign occupiers with Jesus appearing at the least sympathetic to the anti-Roman forces. He is betrayed and executed at the demands of the collaborating Jewish establishment. This dimension of the story seems to have been softened considerably after the adoption of Christianity as the established religion of the Roman Empire.

The cultural and technological differences between the world of the Bible and today's America are such that attempting to find doctrine on armed uprising is as tricky as looking for divine traffic regulations.
Conservatism is a social disease
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Robertr2000
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Armed uprising?? :dunno:
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
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George Aligator
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Robertr2000
Jan 4 2018, 04:25 PM
Armed uprising?? :dunno:
Your meme ^^^ mentions "fight tyranny". A tyrant runs the government. You can't fight him with just tweets.
Conservatism is a social disease
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longbich
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George Aligator
Jan 4 2018, 04:26 PM
Robertr2000
Jan 4 2018, 04:25 PM
Armed uprising?? :dunno:
Your meme ^^^ mentions "fight tyranny". A tyrant runs the government. You can't fight him with just tweets.
What about Thoughts and Prayers?
There's a way of confronting tyranny.
Hasn't anyone thought of this before? It should work. Look at all the other times it has. Oh wait a minute....
The Bird of Time has but a little way to fly-
And Lo, the Bird is on the wing. "Omar"
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George Aligator
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longbich
Jan 4 2018, 09:31 PM
George Aligator
Jan 4 2018, 04:26 PM
Robertr2000
Jan 4 2018, 04:25 PM
Armed uprising?? :dunno:
Your meme ^^^ mentions "fight tyranny". A tyrant runs the government. You can't fight him with just tweets.
What about Thoughts and Prayers?
There's a way of confronting tyranny.
Hasn't anyone thought of this before? It should work. Look at all the other times it has. Oh wait a minute....
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

Sounds like a socialist program way to the left of Bernie Sanders, although the Guy who said those ^^^ words was also a Jew. Religion may be a big help in getting out our mess but it isn't going to be a Republican way out.
Conservatism is a social disease
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Realitycheck
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longbich
Jan 4 2018, 09:31 PM
George Aligator
Jan 4 2018, 04:26 PM
Robertr2000
Jan 4 2018, 04:25 PM
Armed uprising?? :dunno:
Your meme ^^^ mentions "fight tyranny". A tyrant runs the government. You can't fight him with just tweets.
What about Thoughts and Prayers?
There's a way of confronting tyranny.
Hasn't anyone thought of this before? It should work. Look at all the other times it has. Oh wait a minute....
:rotflmao: :cheers: Praying is like pissing into the wind.
Religion in general and xianity in particular, is the worst scourge, the foulest plague to ever beset mankind.
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George Aligator
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Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 03:22 PM
longbich
Jan 4 2018, 09:31 PM
George Aligator
Jan 4 2018, 04:26 PM
Robertr2000
Jan 4 2018, 04:25 PM
Armed uprising?? :dunno:
Your meme ^^^ mentions "fight tyranny". A tyrant runs the government. You can't fight him with just tweets.
What about Thoughts and Prayers?
There's a way of confronting tyranny.
Hasn't anyone thought of this before? It should work. Look at all the other times it has. Oh wait a minute....
:rotflmao: :cheers: Praying is like pissing into the wind.
This ^^^ seems a bit silly. Do you know the various types of prayer? Do you have any thoughts on the subject or is this the usual P.com kiddie thrill of saying something naughty and getting away with it?
Conservatism is a social disease
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Realitycheck
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George Aligator
Jan 5 2018, 04:38 PM
Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 03:22 PM
longbich
Jan 4 2018, 09:31 PM
George Aligator
Jan 4 2018, 04:26 PM
Robertr2000
Jan 4 2018, 04:25 PM
Armed uprising?? :dunno:
Your meme ^^^ mentions "fight tyranny". A tyrant runs the government. You can't fight him with just tweets.
What about Thoughts and Prayers?
There's a way of confronting tyranny.
Hasn't anyone thought of this before? It should work. Look at all the other times it has. Oh wait a minute....
:rotflmao: :cheers: Praying is like pissing into the wind.
This ^^^ seems a bit silly. Do you know the various types of prayer? Do you have any thoughts on the subject or is this the usual P.com kiddie thrill of saying something naughty and getting away with it?
What the hell difference does a different kind of prayer make? None of them work because there is no god to answer them. Before you go into fits "proving" prayer works, ask the folks in Texas, Florida and Puerto Rico, ask the starving kids in the world, ask the victims of pedophile priests if prayer works.
Religion in general and xianity in particular, is the worst scourge, the foulest plague to ever beset mankind.
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George Aligator
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Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 05:25 PM
George Aligator
Jan 5 2018, 04:38 PM
Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 03:22 PM
longbich
Jan 4 2018, 09:31 PM
George Aligator
Jan 4 2018, 04:26 PM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepArmed uprising??
What about Thoughts and Prayers?
There's a way of confronting tyranny.
Hasn't anyone thought of this before? It should work. Look at all the other times it has. Oh wait a minute....
:rotflmao: :cheers: Praying is like pissing into the wind.
This ^^^ seems a bit silly. Do you know the various types of prayer? Do you have any thoughts on the subject or is this the usual P.com kiddie thrill of saying something naughty and getting away with it?
What the hell difference does a different kind of prayer make? None of them work because there is no god to answer them. Before you go into fits "proving" prayer works, ask the folks in Texas, Florida and Puerto Rico, ask the starving kids in the world, ask the victims of pedophile priests if prayer works.
You are referring to petitionary prayer, prayers to win the lottery etc. Prayer is more than just a phone call to God. You might ask the millions of Christians who prayed for Donald Trump to win the presidential election if prayer works.

We have a declining number of religious fanatics. The last thing we need is a rising number of atheist fanatics.
Conservatism is a social disease
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Realitycheck
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George Aligator
Jan 5 2018, 05:44 PM
Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 05:25 PM
George Aligator
Jan 5 2018, 04:38 PM
Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 03:22 PM
longbich
Jan 4 2018, 09:31 PM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepArmed uprising??
:rotflmao: :cheers: Praying is like pissing into the wind.
This ^^^ seems a bit silly. Do you know the various types of prayer? Do you have any thoughts on the subject or is this the usual P.com kiddie thrill of saying something naughty and getting away with it?
What the hell difference does a different kind of prayer make? None of them work because there is no god to answer them. Before you go into fits "proving" prayer works, ask the folks in Texas, Florida and Puerto Rico, ask the starving kids in the world, ask the victims of pedophile priests if prayer works.
You are referring to petitionary prayer, prayers to win the lottery etc. Prayer is more than just a phone call to God. You might ask the millions of Christians who prayed for Donald Trump to win the presidential election if prayer works.

We have a declining number of religious fanatics. The last thing we need is a rising number of atheist fanatics.
:rotflmao: You might ask the many more millions who prayed Chump would not win.

A phone call to god, prayer or otherwise is a call to a number which never existed.

More atheists will only result in fewer wars, less child abuse and greater advances in science.
Religion in general and xianity in particular, is the worst scourge, the foulest plague to ever beset mankind.
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longbich
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Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 03:22 PM
longbich
Jan 4 2018, 09:31 PM
George Aligator
Jan 4 2018, 04:26 PM
Robertr2000
Jan 4 2018, 04:25 PM
Armed uprising?? :dunno:
Your meme ^^^ mentions "fight tyranny". A tyrant runs the government. You can't fight him with just tweets.
What about Thoughts and Prayers?
There's a way of confronting tyranny.
Hasn't anyone thought of this before? It should work. Look at all the other times it has. Oh wait a minute....
:rotflmao: :cheers: Praying is like pissing into the wind.
Realitycheck I have to disagree with you here.
At least when you're pissing into the wind you will get a result.

The dwindling number of religionists in the developed world is due to the education of the civilized.
Atheists are rarely fanatical. It's hard to be radically passionate about something that isn't there.

George Aligator likes to have his two bits worth on every subject but hasn't thought this through very well.
Maybe if we just send him our thoughts ,as we will not futilely pray, he will come around to some observations more in line with his usual thoughtful approach.
The Bird of Time has but a little way to fly-
And Lo, the Bird is on the wing. "Omar"
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ringotuna
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Without the invocation of a higher deity, prayer becomes simple meditation. It is a means of seeking clarity and peace of mind. Therefore it has value, if only to the one praying. I myself do not pray. You can call me a quiet athiest. One who actually practices the respect and sense of equality that others here only give lip service to.
Ringoism: Never underestimate the advantages of being underestimated.
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George Aligator
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longbich
Jan 6 2018, 01:22 AM
Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 03:22 PM
longbich
Jan 4 2018, 09:31 PM
George Aligator
Jan 4 2018, 04:26 PM
Robertr2000
Jan 4 2018, 04:25 PM
Armed uprising?? :dunno:
Your meme ^^^ mentions "fight tyranny". A tyrant runs the government. You can't fight him with just tweets.
What about Thoughts and Prayers?
There's a way of confronting tyranny.
Hasn't anyone thought of this before? It should work. Look at all the other times it has. Oh wait a minute....
:rotflmao: :cheers: Praying is like pissing into the wind.
Realitycheck I have to disagree with you here.
At least when you're pissing into the wind you will get a result.

The dwindling number of religionists in the developed world is due to the education of the civilized.
Atheists are rarely fanatical. It's hard to be radically passionate about something that isn't there.

George Aligator likes to have his two bits worth on every subject but hasn't thought this through very well.
Maybe if we just send him our thoughts ,as we will not futilely pray, he will come around to some observations more in line with his usual thoughtful approach.
I mentioned my thoughts that petitionary prayer is the only style which our scoffers seem to know. Meditation is a form of prayer whose effects have been validated by neuroscience. God is a culturally determined concept. The Angry
Boss Upstairs is a Judeo-Christian concept not shared by most of the world's people.

What happens when one prays is a subtle phenomenon. The alt-right bad boys who skipped Sunday school have a simplistic prejudice that fits their anti-intellectual approach to any abstract phenomenon. Besides being a genius, their hero in the White House has declared himself a devout Presbyterian. Is he mistaken or is he lying? Curious minds want to know.
Conservatism is a social disease
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longbich
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George Aligator
Jan 6 2018, 10:05 AM
longbich
Jan 6 2018, 01:22 AM
Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 03:22 PM
longbich
Jan 4 2018, 09:31 PM
George Aligator
Jan 4 2018, 04:26 PM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepArmed uprising??
What about Thoughts and Prayers?
There's a way of confronting tyranny.
Hasn't anyone thought of this before? It should work. Look at all the other times it has. Oh wait a minute....
:rotflmao: :cheers: Praying is like pissing into the wind.
Realitycheck I have to disagree with you here.
At least when you're pissing into the wind you will get a result.

The dwindling number of religionists in the developed world is due to the education of the civilized.
Atheists are rarely fanatical. It's hard to be radically passionate about something that isn't there.

George Aligator likes to have his two bits worth on every subject but hasn't thought this through very well.
Maybe if we just send him our thoughts ,as we will not futilely pray, he will come around to some observations more in line with his usual thoughtful approach.
I mentioned my thoughts that petitionary prayer is the only style which our scoffers seem to know. Meditation is a form of prayer whose effects have been validated by neuroscience. God is a culturally determined concept. The Angry
Boss Upstairs is a Judeo-Christian concept not shared by most of the world's people.

What happens when one prays is a subtle phenomenon. The alt-right bad boys who skipped Sunday school have a simplistic prejudice that fits their anti-intellectual approach to any abstract phenomenon. Besides being a genius, their hero in the White House has declared himself a devout Presbyterian. Is he mistaken or is he lying? Curious minds want to know.
In meditation breathing is meant to clear the mind, to bring a person to a place of clarity, letting go of everything but the present moment.
Prayer is different.
In prayer you're turning over your scattered thoughts to a god.

Hidden among the George Aligator expected rationale is the condescending rap concerning we scoffers. Attempting to obfuscate by claiming that petitionary prayer is not the only kind and then emphasizing the belief (there is that unconvincing word again) that meditation is also prayer.
Sorry George Aligator but just because the rest of your interesting observations seem so realistic this silly insert just won't compute.
Edited by longbich, Jan 6 2018, 05:43 PM.
The Bird of Time has but a little way to fly-
And Lo, the Bird is on the wing. "Omar"
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George Aligator
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longbich
Jan 6 2018, 05:42 PM
George Aligator
Jan 6 2018, 10:05 AM
longbich
Jan 6 2018, 01:22 AM
Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 03:22 PM
longbich
Jan 4 2018, 09:31 PM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepArmed uprising??
:rotflmao: :cheers: Praying is like pissing into the wind.
Realitycheck I have to disagree with you here.
At least when you're pissing into the wind you will get a result.

The dwindling number of religionists in the developed world is due to the education of the civilized.
Atheists are rarely fanatical. It's hard to be radically passionate about something that isn't there.

George Aligator likes to have his two bits worth on every subject but hasn't thought this through very well.
Maybe if we just send him our thoughts ,as we will not futilely pray, he will come around to some observations more in line with his usual thoughtful approach.
I mentioned my thoughts that petitionary prayer is the only style which our scoffers seem to know. Meditation is a form of prayer whose effects have been validated by neuroscience. God is a culturally determined concept. The Angry
Boss Upstairs is a Judeo-Christian concept not shared by most of the world's people.

What happens when one prays is a subtle phenomenon. The alt-right bad boys who skipped Sunday school have a simplistic prejudice that fits their anti-intellectual approach to any abstract phenomenon. Besides being a genius, their hero in the White House has declared himself a devout Presbyterian. Is he mistaken or is he lying? Curious minds want to know.
In meditation breathing is meant to clear the mind, to bring a person to a place of clarity, letting go of everything but the present moment.
Prayer is different.
In prayer you're turning over your scattered thoughts to a god.

Hidden among the George Aligator expected rationale is the condescending rap concerning we scoffers. Attempting to obfuscate by claiming that petitionary prayer is not the only kind and then emphasizing the belief (there is that unconvincing word again) that meditation is also prayer.
Sorry George Aligator but just because the rest of your interesting observations seem so realistic this silly insert just won't compute.
My colleague seems not to know the different forms of prayer, limiting his understand to petitionary prayer. Here in Christian America, some of the most widely recited prayers are those of thanksgiving, and praise, forms of prayer that go back to the Psalms and other Biblical models and are not supplication. Nor are prayers directed only toward God. Christians pray to saints, other religions pray to various spirits etc. Prayers are used for worshipping, praising confessing sins as well as expressing feelings and thoughts.

The scope and variety of prayer within the Christian tradition is but a small part of human praying. My colleague seems to similarly limited in his understanding of meditation, thinking yoga-type meditation like TM is all there is. He seems unaware of the Christian tradition of contemplative prayer, a form of meditation central to such widespread practices as the Mysteries of the Rosary. Oriental religions have their own versions of contemplative prayer as a style of meditation.

Hilaire Belloc once responded to a scoffing critic like my colleague, saying, "your God is too small." I'm afraid a similar limitation of understanding applies in our current discussion. Whatever your own personal beliefs may be, the nature and extent of prayer in human societies is an anthropological reality that can be learned without requiring ritual performance by the student. Trust me
Conservatism is a social disease
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longbich
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George Aligator
Jan 6 2018, 06:07 PM
longbich
Jan 6 2018, 05:42 PM
George Aligator
Jan 6 2018, 10:05 AM
longbich
Jan 6 2018, 01:22 AM
Realitycheck
Jan 5 2018, 03:22 PM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepArmed uprising??
Realitycheck I have to disagree with you here.
At least when you're pissing into the wind you will get a result.

The dwindling number of religionists in the developed world is due to the education of the civilized.
Atheists are rarely fanatical. It's hard to be radically passionate about something that isn't there.

George Aligator likes to have his two bits worth on every subject but hasn't thought this through very well.
Maybe if we just send him our thoughts ,as we will not futilely pray, he will come around to some observations more in line with his usual thoughtful approach.
I mentioned my thoughts that petitionary prayer is the only style which our scoffers seem to know. Meditation is a form of prayer whose effects have been validated by neuroscience. God is a culturally determined concept. The Angry
Boss Upstairs is a Judeo-Christian concept not shared by most of the world's people.

What happens when one prays is a subtle phenomenon. The alt-right bad boys who skipped Sunday school have a simplistic prejudice that fits their anti-intellectual approach to any abstract phenomenon. Besides being a genius, their hero in the White House has declared himself a devout Presbyterian. Is he mistaken or is he lying? Curious minds want to know.
In meditation breathing is meant to clear the mind, to bring a person to a place of clarity, letting go of everything but the present moment.
Prayer is different.
In prayer you're turning over your scattered thoughts to a god.

Hidden among the George Aligator expected rationale is the condescending rap concerning we scoffers. Attempting to obfuscate by claiming that petitionary prayer is not the only kind and then emphasizing the belief (there is that unconvincing word again) that meditation is also prayer.
Sorry George Aligator but just because the rest of your interesting observations seem so realistic this silly insert just won't compute.
My colleague seems not to know the different forms of prayer, limiting his understand to petitionary prayer. Here in Christian America, some of the most widely recited prayers are those of thanksgiving, and praise, forms of prayer that go back to the Psalms and other Biblical models and are not supplication. Nor are prayers directed only toward God. Christians pray to saints, other religions pray to various spirits etc. Prayers are used for worshipping, praising confessing sins as well as expressing feelings and thoughts.

The scope and variety of prayer within the Christian tradition is but a small part of human praying. My colleague seems to similarly limited in his understanding of meditation, thinking yoga-type meditation like TM is all there is. He seems unaware of the Christian tradition of contemplative prayer, a form of meditation central to such widespread practices as the Mysteries of the Rosary. Oriental religions have their own versions of contemplative prayer as a style of meditation.

Hilaire Belloc once responded to a scoffing critic like my colleague, saying, "your God is too small." I'm afraid a similar limitation of understanding applies in our current discussion. Whatever your own personal beliefs may be, the nature and extent of prayer in human societies is an anthropological reality that can be learned without requiring ritual performance by the student. Trust me
Maybe some meditation would be good for George Aligator.
It is meant to clear your mind and bring some clarity not to be burdened by confusing intrusion with religious connotations.
It is often the case that a simple discussion will be clouded by unnecessary overthinking and mind numbing word definitions.

Here it is about prayer. Prayer has to do with religion.
Meditation may but it is mainly about clearing your mind of clutter.

Religion is not necessary as a part of meditation. Meditation may be a part of prayer.

Meditation has now had another strand of unneeded clutter added with the modern term "mindfulness".

"A form of meditation" is one way of bending an argument to your agenda. All the varieties of prayer have some measure of religion/god inherent. Meditation does not. It has no need for any intrusions at all. No god and no ephemeral mundane intrusions into the main aim.
Prayer is prayer and meditation is meditation.
The Bird of Time has but a little way to fly-
And Lo, the Bird is on the wing. "Omar"
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George Aligator
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longbich
Jan 6 2018, 07:39 PM
George Aligator
Jan 6 2018, 06:07 PM
longbich
Jan 6 2018, 05:42 PM
George Aligator
Jan 6 2018, 10:05 AM
longbich
Jan 6 2018, 01:22 AM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepArmed uprising?? Realitycheck I have to disagree with you here.
At least when you're pissing into the wind you will get a result.

The dwindling number of religionists in the developed world is due to the education of the civilized.
Atheists are rarely fanatical. It's hard to be radically passionate about something that isn't there.

George Aligator likes to have his two bits worth on every subject but hasn't thought this through very well.
Maybe if we just send him our thoughts ,as we will not futilely pray, he will come around to some observations more in line with his usual thoughtful approach.
I mentioned my thoughts that petitionary prayer is the only style which our scoffers seem to know. Meditation is a form of prayer whose effects have been validated by neuroscience. God is a culturally determined concept. The Angry
Boss Upstairs is a Judeo-Christian concept not shared by most of the world's people.

What happens when one prays is a subtle phenomenon. The alt-right bad boys who skipped Sunday school have a simplistic prejudice that fits their anti-intellectual approach to any abstract phenomenon. Besides being a genius, their hero in the White House has declared himself a devout Presbyterian. Is he mistaken or is he lying? Curious minds want to know.
In meditation breathing is meant to clear the mind, to bring a person to a place of clarity, letting go of everything but the present moment.
Prayer is different.
In prayer you're turning over your scattered thoughts to a god.

Hidden among the George Aligator expected rationale is the condescending rap concerning we scoffers. Attempting to obfuscate by claiming that petitionary prayer is not the only kind and then emphasizing the belief (there is that unconvincing word again) that meditation is also prayer.
Sorry George Aligator but just because the rest of your interesting observations seem so realistic this silly insert just won't compute.
My colleague seems not to know the different forms of prayer, limiting his understand to petitionary prayer. Here in Christian America, some of the most widely recited prayers are those of thanksgiving, and praise, forms of prayer that go back to the Psalms and other Biblical models and are not supplication. Nor are prayers directed only toward God. Christians pray to saints, other religions pray to various spirits etc. Prayers are used for worshipping, praising confessing sins as well as expressing feelings and thoughts.

The scope and variety of prayer within the Christian tradition is but a small part of human praying. My colleague seems to similarly limited in his understanding of meditation, thinking yoga-type meditation like TM is all there is. He seems unaware of the Christian tradition of contemplative prayer, a form of meditation central to such widespread practices as the Mysteries of the Rosary. Oriental religions have their own versions of contemplative prayer as a style of meditation.

Hilaire Belloc once responded to a scoffing critic like my colleague, saying, "your God is too small." I'm afraid a similar limitation of understanding applies in our current discussion. Whatever your own personal beliefs may be, the nature and extent of prayer in human societies is an anthropological reality that can be learned without requiring ritual performance by the student. Trust me
Maybe some meditation would be good for George Aligator.
It is meant to clear your mind and bring some clarity not to be burdened by confusing intrusion with religious connotations.
It is often the case that a simple discussion will be clouded by unnecessary overthinking and mind numbing word definitions.

Here it is about prayer. Prayer has to do with religion.
Meditation may but it is mainly about clearing your mind of clutter.

Religion is not necessary as a part of meditation. Meditation may be a part of prayer.

Meditation has now had another strand of unneeded clutter added with the modern term "mindfulness".

"A form of meditation" is one way of bending an argument to your agenda. All the varieties of prayer have some measure of religion/god inherent. Meditation does not. It has no need for any intrusions at all. No god and no ephemeral mundane intrusions into the main aim.
Prayer is prayer and meditation is meditation.
Well, we are making progress. We have managed to recognize that petitionary prayer is only one mode of prayer. This was the core of the proposition scoffing at prayer and religious belief and it has been shown to be ignorant and incorrect.

Now we come to the issue of meditation as a mode of prayer. Simply asserting that "Prayer is prayer and meditation is meditation" doesn't prove anything. Attempting to define all meditation as the sort of breathing technique that produces the relaxation response of Transcendental Meditation is just another example of limited knowledge of the subject. I mentioned the meditative prayer taught Catholics using the mysteries (joyful, sorrowful, glorious) used in conjunction with the rosary as a widely practiced form of meditative prayer. This form of meditative prayer is quite similar to the mantra mediation taught the Beatles and popularized in TM. Other forms, for example that of Jakob Böhme, of meditative prayer are well known to students of religion.

The argument that because you have never heard of something, it can't exist is pathetic. The wise man, as Confucius observed, knows what he knows and what he does not know.

Conservatism is a social disease
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longbich
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George Aligator
Jan 6 2018, 08:09 PM
longbich
Jan 6 2018, 07:39 PM
George Aligator
Jan 6 2018, 06:07 PM
longbich
Jan 6 2018, 05:42 PM
George Aligator
Jan 6 2018, 10:05 AM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepArmed uprising?? Realitycheck I have to disagree with you here.
At least when you're pissing into the wind you will get a result.

The dwindling number of religionists in the developed world is due to the education of the civilized.
Atheists are rarely fanatical. It's hard to be radically passionate about something that isn't there.

George Aligator likes to have his two bits worth on every subject but hasn't thought this through very well.
Maybe if we just send him our thoughts ,as we will not futilely pray, he will come around to some observations more in line with his usual thoughtful
In meditation breathing is meant to clear the mind, to bring a person to a place of clarity, letting go of everything but the present moment.
Prayer is different.
In prayer you're turning over your scattered thoughts to a god.

Hidden among the George Aligator expected rationale is the condescending rap concerning we scoffers. Attempting to obfuscate by claiming that petitionary prayer is not the only kind and then emphasizing the belief (there is that unconvincing word again) that meditation is also prayer.
Sorry George Aligator but just because the rest of your interesting observations seem so realistic this silly insert just won't compute.
My colleague seems not to know the different forms of prayer, limiting his understand to petitionary prayer. Here in Christian America, some of the most widely recited prayers are those of thanksgiving, and praise, forms of prayer that go back to the Psalms and other Biblical models and are not supplication. Nor are prayers directed only toward God. Christians pray to saints, other religions pray to various spirits etc. Prayers are used for worshipping, praising confessing sins as well as expressing feelings and thoughts.

The scope and variety of prayer within the Christian tradition is but a small part of human praying. My colleague seems to similarly limited in his understanding of meditation, thinking yoga-type meditation like TM is all there is. He seems unaware of the Christian tradition of contemplative prayer, a form of meditation central to such widespread practices as the Mysteries of the Rosary. Oriental religions have their own versions of contemplative prayer as a style of meditation.

Hilaire Belloc once responded to a scoffing critic like my colleague, saying, "your God is too small." I'm afraid a similar limitation of understanding applies in our current discussion. Whatever your own personal beliefs may be, the nature and extent of prayer in human societies is an anthropological reality that can be learned without requiring ritual performance by the student. Trust me
Maybe some meditation would be good for George Aligator.
It is meant to clear your mind and bring some clarity not to be burdened by confusing intrusion with religious connotations.
It is often the case that a simple discussion will be clouded by unnecessary overthinking and mind numbing word definitions.

Here it is about prayer. Prayer has to do with religion.
Meditation may but it is mainly about clearing your mind of clutter.

Religion is not necessary as a part of meditation. Meditation may be a part of prayer.

Meditation has now had another strand of unneeded clutter added with the modern term "mindfulness".

"A form of meditation" is one way of bending an argument to your agenda. All the varieties of prayer have some measure of religion/god inherent. Meditation does not. It has no need for any intrusions at all. No god and no ephemeral mundane intrusions into the main aim.
Prayer is prayer and meditation is meditation.
Well, we are making progress. We have managed to recognize that petitionary prayer is only one mode of prayer. This was the core of the proposition scoffing at prayer and religious belief and it has been shown to be ignorant and incorrect.

Now we come to the issue of meditation as a mode of prayer. Simply asserting that "Prayer is prayer and meditation is meditation" doesn't prove anything. Attempting to define all meditation as the sort of breathing technique that produces the relaxation response of Transcendental Meditation is just another example of limited knowledge of the subject. I mentioned the meditative prayer taught Catholics using the mysteries (joyful, sorrowful, glorious) used in conjunction with the rosary as a widely practiced form of meditative prayer. This form of meditative prayer is quite similar to the mantra mediation taught the Beatles and popularized in TM. Other forms, for example that of Jakob Böhme, of meditative prayer are well known to students of religion.

The argument that because you have never heard of something, it can't exist is pathetic. The wise man, as Confucius observed, knows what he knows and what he does not know.

To introduce a tone of condescension into a discussion is almost as conducive as mentioning Hitler.
You will lose due to a pompous attitude completely out of tune with the essential OP concerned with the valid premise of Christians and gun control.
That was also a broad topic as it really requires everyone, not just Christians, to admit that that is a very wise choice.

Making progress? You are losing me George Aligator. You are not the omniscient one here. You are not the know all. You are merely another poster with an agenda to push. Just like me.
This forum is about Religion+ all faiths and views. I am an atheist.
It suits me fine to mock this silly aspect of humanity.
Prayer is just one element (but I admit a comforting one) of a useless, greedy cruel hoax.
To the contrary the ignorance is all on the side of the believers.
Gradually they are coming around. Even in America there is a realization that the over privileged religious section of our societies has wasted so many of our resources.

We don't come around to anything George Aligator. You don't run this.
To have an amplifying discussion is fine but to stick to the zeitgeist's well worn acceptance of words makes for more decisive conclusions.
If you or anyone speaks to me like this George Aligator with such dismissive condescension I will not bother having anything to do with them.
I am the one who dismissively addresses religionists.
The Bird of Time has but a little way to fly-
And Lo, the Bird is on the wing. "Omar"
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