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Tesla is 'going out of business,' says former GM exec Bob Lutz; Silly liberals trying to run a car company
Topic Started: Nov 18 2017, 10:04 AM (357 Views)
Drudge X
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BuckFan
Nov 19 2017, 12:48 PM
Drudge X
Nov 18 2017, 03:30 PM
BuckFan
Nov 18 2017, 01:05 PM
A competitor claiming they are better and the competition is losing. Who wudda thunk
Tesla is not a natural competitor with GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, or Nissan. Without sucking on the government's milk, Tesla has no cash whatsoever.

Net income for three years.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/cash-flow?p=TSLA

It helps to have a market cap of $53 Billion and a multi-billionaire backing you up. Startups are not cheap, especially on this scale.
In other words, it's a well-lube scheme with tax payers footing the bill. If taxpayers are funding Tesla's operations, at least bring the price down to a competitive level like Japanese automakers.
Kate Steinle was separated from her family permanently but leftists didn't seem to mind.
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Robert Stout
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Drudge X
Nov 19 2017, 04:31 PM
peewee
Nov 19 2017, 11:03 AM
Drudge X
Nov 18 2017, 03:27 PM
There's not one car in GM catalog that entices me unless they bring back the retro Trans Am.
Did you drive the Camaro 2SS/RS, the poor man's Corvette?
No, I always wanted the retro look 79 Trans Am.
DrudgeX insists on having a big chicken on his hood............. :shakeshead:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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W A Mozart
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BuckFan
Nov 19 2017, 12:51 PM
W A Mozart
Nov 19 2017, 10:51 AM
Harambe4Trump
Nov 18 2017, 01:59 PM
W A Mozart
Nov 18 2017, 01:56 PM
Harambe4Trump
Nov 18 2017, 01:13 PM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deep
Legendary failure, ....Lutz?

Which company was it? GM?


Mozart
Perhaps you missed the auto bailouts of 2008/9?

He was a bust. He was why I drove a Honda.
Ah, ...no.

Richard Wagoner was in charge of GM during those years. Bob Lutz would have been 74 years old at the time (2008), and playing only a minor role as a board member. Furthermore, the real problem with GM was (1) unions and (2) their bloated pension plans, both driving them to bankruptcy. Furthermore, GM made some smart decisions in getting rid of their European operations. GM had a HUGE plant near Frankfurt Germany. Every time I flew in and out of Germany in the 80's and 90's I would bump into their workers on shift changes on the train platforms around Frankfurt. Their OPEL operations could never compete with the other German brands, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche or even Volkswagen.

Mozart
The unions were not the problem, that is a Rightie boogieman to cover from poor management. GM made horrible business decisions that weakened them compared to their competitors like Ford.

I will give you a bone. The Big Three did have a disadvantage compared to the Japanese and European newcomers in this country. They did have a labor legacy of cost that the newcomers did not. They also have a legacy of old infrastructure (factories) and complacent product development and marketing that made them less competitive.
Ah, ...no.

First, I have an extensive background in the automobile industry, the details of which would shock you were I to reveal them. The UAW was directly responsible for the "uncompetitiveness" vis-a-vis the newly arriving Japanese manufacturer's. The work force at the new Japanese plants was younger, more flexible and didn't carry the baggage of millions of UAW retiree's. This is no bogeyman, but reality.

Second, I read a couple of Bob Lutz's books and met him the one time at Pebble Beach. It was twilight in a cordoned-off area of the clubhouse where I was quietly admiring an early 1960's Ferrari. It was the night before the Concourse D'elegance. A couple was walking toward me in the semi-dark and I barely looked-up. When they walked on over to the Ferrari I immediately recognized him as Bob Lutz, a true legend in the automotive world. We chatted for over a half hour. His wife was with him and she was thoroughly charming. It was a memorable evening indeed.


Mozart
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thoughtless
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Tesla shares gain as Wall Street heaps praise on electric truck, new Roadster
Without geometry, life is pointless.
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BuckFan

Drudge X
Nov 19 2017, 04:33 PM
BuckFan
Nov 19 2017, 12:48 PM
Drudge X
Nov 18 2017, 03:30 PM
BuckFan
Nov 18 2017, 01:05 PM
A competitor claiming they are better and the competition is losing. Who wudda thunk
Tesla is not a natural competitor with GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, or Nissan. Without sucking on the government's milk, Tesla has no cash whatsoever.

Net income for three years.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/cash-flow?p=TSLA

It helps to have a market cap of $53 Billion and a multi-billionaire backing you up. Startups are not cheap, especially on this scale.
In other words, it's a well-lube scheme with tax payers footing the bill. If taxpayers are funding Tesla's operations, at least bring the price down to a competitive level like Japanese automakers.
Tesla has gotten the same subsidies that any company can get that promises jobs. Japanese auto companies also got those subsidies to build their plants. The reality is the ones that got shafted are the Big Three which built their plants decades ago before tax give-aways were common practice.
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George Aligator
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General Motors is a conglomerate built on the takeover of dozens of independent auto manufacturers. The US car industry is a textbook example of the economic principle of "concentration of capital." Big fish eat little fish until monopoly is achieved. It has already happened in the computer & software industry. It isn't something wrong with capitalism, it is a fundamental part of the way capitalism works. It's a job killer too.
Conservatism is a social disease
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BuckFan

W A Mozart
Nov 19 2017, 08:34 PM
BuckFan
Nov 19 2017, 12:51 PM
W A Mozart
Nov 19 2017, 10:51 AM
Harambe4Trump
Nov 18 2017, 01:59 PM
W A Mozart
Nov 18 2017, 01:56 PM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deep
Perhaps you missed the auto bailouts of 2008/9?

He was a bust. He was why I drove a Honda.
Ah, ...no.

Richard Wagoner was in charge of GM during those years. Bob Lutz would have been 74 years old at the time (2008), and playing only a minor role as a board member. Furthermore, the real problem with GM was (1) unions and (2) their bloated pension plans, both driving them to bankruptcy. Furthermore, GM made some smart decisions in getting rid of their European operations. GM had a HUGE plant near Frankfurt Germany. Every time I flew in and out of Germany in the 80's and 90's I would bump into their workers on shift changes on the train platforms around Frankfurt. Their OPEL operations could never compete with the other German brands, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche or even Volkswagen.

Mozart
The unions were not the problem, that is a Rightie boogieman to cover from poor management. GM made horrible business decisions that weakened them compared to their competitors like Ford.

I will give you a bone. The Big Three did have a disadvantage compared to the Japanese and European newcomers in this country. They did have a labor legacy of cost that the newcomers did not. They also have a legacy of old infrastructure (factories) and complacent product development and marketing that made them less competitive.
Ah, ...no.

First, I have an extensive background in the automobile industry, the details of which would shock you were I to reveal them. The UAW was directly responsible for the "uncompetitiveness" vis-a-vis the newly arriving Japanese manufacturer's. The work force at the new Japanese plants was younger, more flexible and didn't carry the baggage of millions of UAW retiree's. This is no bogeyman, but reality.

Second, I read a couple of Bob Lutz's books and met him the one time at Pebble Beach. It was twilight in a cordoned-off area of the clubhouse where I was quietly admiring an early 1960's Ferrari. It was the night before the Concourse D'elegance. A couple was walking toward me in the semi-dark and I barely looked-up. When they walked on over to the Ferrari I immediately recognized him as Bob Lutz, a true legend in the automotive world. We chatted for over a half hour. His wife was with him and she was thoroughly charming. It was a memorable evening indeed.


Mozart
I said that the new plants did not have to deal with the legacy of decades of employment or wear.

But that is not what drove Americans away from Big Three cars. Poor quality, poor design, poor materials drove Americans away and those were management decisions. That fact is the Japanese showed the Americans that high quality products could be produced at an affordable cost.

I do not let union leadership off from the problems. They did not react quickly to recognize that new work rules were needed. They did not realize that workers required training for the new tasks that technology was bringing to the factories. They were also complacent in allowing pension funds to be underfunded.
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Demagogue
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I have sat in a Bolt and a Model 3. The two cars can't really be compared beyond the fact that they are both electric.

With that said, Lutz might be correct in that the company could be in trouble if it can't fully ramp up model 3 production. Right now they are having a hard time of it because they have never made cars on this scale before. They have a ton of money invested in the Model 3. If due to production issues they can not fill (or at least make a huge dent in) the 400,000 orders they have for the car before the end of 2018 they they may be in financial trouble.

Of course, a couple years ago former and current executives from Boeing were saying that SpaceX would never be able to meet their launch manifest while they laughed at what they considered a small time player in their market.

Now, SpaceX has launched more rockets than anyone other than Russia in one calendar year.

Of course SpaceX and Tesla are two vastly different enterprises. For Musk, Tesla auto was always about making the world accept electric cars. Honestly, it was an environmental mission of his. The fact that they ended up making some really great cars was just a cool side effect. Why do you think Tesla made their patents on their charging system and other things available to anyone who wanted to use them? So if by some chance the automotive side of Tesla can't fill all those Model 3 orders then it won't be the end of the world because Musk's goal will have been achieved. Prior to Tesla, nobody was making an all electric car in large quantities. Now, nearly every single major manufacturer offers one.

Of course, Musk is a businessman and he would prefer to make money on his investments. I won't count Tesla out just yet but they do need to get the production up. A few years back I said that I would not be surprised to see Tesla purchased by one of the big manufacturers. I don't think that will happen but if they can't figure out the production thing I would not be surprised to see them partner with one of them.
Edited by Demagogue, Nov 20 2017, 01:19 PM.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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clone
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Director @ Center for Advanced Memetic Warfare
Demagogue
Nov 20 2017, 01:17 PM
I have sat in a Bolt and a Model 3. The two cars can't really be compared beyond the fact that they are both electric.

With that said, Lutz might be correct in that the company could be in trouble if it can't fully ramp up model 3 production. Right now they are having a hard time of it because they have never made cars on this scale before. They have a ton of money invested in the Model 3. If due to production issues they can not fill (or at least make a huge dent in) the 400,000 orders they have for the car before the end of 2018 they they may be in financial trouble.

Of course, a couple years ago former and current executives from Boeing were saying that SpaceX would never be able to meet their launch manifest while they laughed at what they considered a small time player in their market.

Now, SpaceX has launched more rockets than anyone other than Russia in one calendar year.

Of course SpaceX and Tesla are two vastly different enterprises. For Musk, Tesla auto was always about making the world accept electric cars. Honestly, it was an environmental mission of his. The fact that they ended up making some really great cars was just a cool side effect. Why do you think Tesla made their patents on their charging system and other things available to anyone who wanted to use them? So if by some chance the automotive side of Tesla can't fill all those Model 3 orders then it won't be the end of the world because Musk's goal will have been achieved. Prior to Tesla, nobody was making an all electric car in large quantities. Now, nearly every single major manufacturer offers one.

Of course, Musk is a businessman and he would prefer to make money on his investments. I won't count Tesla out just yet but they do need to get the production up. A few years back I said that I would not be surprised to see Tesla purchased by one of the big manufacturers. I don't think that will happen but if they can't figure out the production thing I would not be surprised to see them partner with one of them.
Tesla is building a premium brand and is much more than a car company....

Regarding the release of patents tech this is hardly a noble enterprise. More people with electric vehicles more people using his soon to be nationwide network of charging stations....

Only liberals can choose not to go down the road to widespread, systematic violence.
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Demagogue
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clone
Nov 20 2017, 03:16 PM
Demagogue
Nov 20 2017, 01:17 PM
I have sat in a Bolt and a Model 3. The two cars can't really be compared beyond the fact that they are both electric.

With that said, Lutz might be correct in that the company could be in trouble if it can't fully ramp up model 3 production. Right now they are having a hard time of it because they have never made cars on this scale before. They have a ton of money invested in the Model 3. If due to production issues they can not fill (or at least make a huge dent in) the 400,000 orders they have for the car before the end of 2018 they they may be in financial trouble.

Of course, a couple years ago former and current executives from Boeing were saying that SpaceX would never be able to meet their launch manifest while they laughed at what they considered a small time player in their market.

Now, SpaceX has launched more rockets than anyone other than Russia in one calendar year.

Of course SpaceX and Tesla are two vastly different enterprises. For Musk, Tesla auto was always about making the world accept electric cars. Honestly, it was an environmental mission of his. The fact that they ended up making some really great cars was just a cool side effect. Why do you think Tesla made their patents on their charging system and other things available to anyone who wanted to use them? So if by some chance the automotive side of Tesla can't fill all those Model 3 orders then it won't be the end of the world because Musk's goal will have been achieved. Prior to Tesla, nobody was making an all electric car in large quantities. Now, nearly every single major manufacturer offers one.

Of course, Musk is a businessman and he would prefer to make money on his investments. I won't count Tesla out just yet but they do need to get the production up. A few years back I said that I would not be surprised to see Tesla purchased by one of the big manufacturers. I don't think that will happen but if they can't figure out the production thing I would not be surprised to see them partner with one of them.
Tesla is building a premium brand and is much more than a car company....

Regarding the release of patents tech this is hardly a noble enterprise. More people with electric vehicles more people using his soon to be nationwide network of charging stations....

I agree that Tesla is more than just a car company. Sometimes companies spin off one portion of themselves. If it turns out that they can't properly mass produce cars then I would think Musk might consider either partnering with someone who does mass production regularly or selling that part of the company.

You have a point about the charging station thing. I am sure that his hope was that since he made the system free everybody would adopt it making the tesla setup the worldwide standard.

I am really curious to see what happens with the Model 3. As you said, Tesla is positioned as a high end brand. Comparing the Model 3 to a Bolt is about like comparing a BMW 3 series car with a Chevy Cruze.

People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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clone
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Demagogue
Nov 20 2017, 03:42 PM
clone
Nov 20 2017, 03:16 PM
Demagogue
Nov 20 2017, 01:17 PM
I have sat in a Bolt and a Model 3. The two cars can't really be compared beyond the fact that they are both electric.

With that said, Lutz might be correct in that the company could be in trouble if it can't fully ramp up model 3 production. Right now they are having a hard time of it because they have never made cars on this scale before. They have a ton of money invested in the Model 3. If due to production issues they can not fill (or at least make a huge dent in) the 400,000 orders they have for the car before the end of 2018 they they may be in financial trouble.

Of course, a couple years ago former and current executives from Boeing were saying that SpaceX would never be able to meet their launch manifest while they laughed at what they considered a small time player in their market.

Now, SpaceX has launched more rockets than anyone other than Russia in one calendar year.

Of course SpaceX and Tesla are two vastly different enterprises. For Musk, Tesla auto was always about making the world accept electric cars. Honestly, it was an environmental mission of his. The fact that they ended up making some really great cars was just a cool side effect. Why do you think Tesla made their patents on their charging system and other things available to anyone who wanted to use them? So if by some chance the automotive side of Tesla can't fill all those Model 3 orders then it won't be the end of the world because Musk's goal will have been achieved. Prior to Tesla, nobody was making an all electric car in large quantities. Now, nearly every single major manufacturer offers one.

Of course, Musk is a businessman and he would prefer to make money on his investments. I won't count Tesla out just yet but they do need to get the production up. A few years back I said that I would not be surprised to see Tesla purchased by one of the big manufacturers. I don't think that will happen but if they can't figure out the production thing I would not be surprised to see them partner with one of them.
Tesla is building a premium brand and is much more than a car company....

Regarding the release of patents tech this is hardly a noble enterprise. More people with electric vehicles more people using his soon to be nationwide network of charging stations....

I agree that Tesla is more than just a car company. Sometimes companies spin off one portion of themselves. If it turns out that they can't properly mass produce cars then I would think Musk might consider either partnering with someone who does mass production regularly or selling that part of the company.

You have a point about the charging station thing. I am sure that his hope was that since he made the system free everybody would adopt it making the tesla setup the worldwide standard.

I am really curious to see what happens with the Model 3. As you said, Tesla is positioned as a high end brand. Comparing the Model 3 to a Bolt is about like comparing a BMW 3 series car with a Chevy Cruze.

Part of the problem is not just manufacturing but sourcing the rare materials for batteries to scale while competitors and speculators scour the world to lock down supply.

And regarding the charging stations assuming he doesn't charge for competitors to charge (which I can't see him doing because just like a bank hit me with a $3 charge to use their ATM) with the new geo beacons and near presence technologies he would instantly have an AD network to rival the biggest today but with an even better laser targeted demographic....

Lastly if a middle class wannabe cool person could get into a "TESLA" for the price of a Chevy Bolt that's a 99% sale for Tesla....

Only liberals can choose not to go down the road to widespread, systematic violence.
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Drudge X
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Yup. Bring the price down to $18-$25k.
Kate Steinle was separated from her family permanently but leftists didn't seem to mind.
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