Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Perspectives. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Natural Law and Gun Rights
Topic Started: Mar 30 2018, 12:36 PM (256 Views)
Old Trapper

Right wingers, with their lack of understanding of the difference between natural (God Given) rights, and those rights "guaranteed" by government, may gain some understanding of how lacking in importance the Second Amendment is in a reality based society that actually functions as God intended, and the Founders envisioned. However, in today's world God has become a secondary, or perhaps even lower on the pole, authority as compared to mans authority:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/30/shouldnt-matter-repeal-second-amendment/?hl=1&noRedirect=1

"The Constitution mentions both natural and legal rights, and the distinction is critical. Within the Bill of Rights, some activities, like speech, are innate human rights protected against government interference. Other rights, like a speedy trial, are legal rights, which are products of the structure the Constitution created.

This distinction is crucial, because natural rights are articulated as endowed by God, while legal rights are endowed by government. The Founding Fathers understood natural rights to exist independent of—or in spite of—government. They simply exist for free people walking the earth. Legal rights are granted by men, and can be altered or destroyed by changes to law or the structure of government. The natural and legal rights in the Constitution are so fundamental that the Bill of Rights was added as an explicit bar to encroachment from the federal government.

The right to keep and bear arms is a natural right. It can be derived and is protected in multiple ways. Inherently, humans have natural grounds for self-preservation and defense. This right is beyond the reach of any person or government. Individuals can protect themselves using any necessary tools or actions."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
clone
Member Avatar
Director @ Center for Advanced Memetic Warfare
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Only liberals can choose not to go down the road to widespread, systematic violence.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Old Trapper

clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Then you would support 2-3 years of mandatory military service, right?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Inquisitor
Member Avatar

Old Trapper
Mar 31 2018, 12:27 AM
clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Then you would support 2-3 years of mandatory military service, right?
Now that's an idea....

Would that be for Males....Females or the Undecided?....
Edited by The Inquisitor, Mar 31 2018, 12:54 AM.
Warning....Leftist's Post Here....Take Precautions
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tsalagi
Member Avatar

The Inquisitor
Mar 31 2018, 12:50 AM
Old Trapper
Mar 31 2018, 12:27 AM
clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Then you would support 2-3 years of mandatory military service, right?
Now that's an idea....

Would that be for Males....Females or the Undecided?....
Would it matter...the chances of close quarters battle are less and less with each generation....so really, all you need is the amount of pressure necessary to pull a trigger, or operate a keyboard.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tsalagi
Member Avatar

clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

you know what that means though...one more item a thief can steal while you're gone from the house.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Robertr2000
Member Avatar

clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Like Switzerland.
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Robertr2000
Member Avatar

Old Trapper
Mar 30 2018, 12:36 PM
Right wingers, with their lack of understanding of the difference between natural (God Given) rights, and those rights "guaranteed" by government, may gain some understanding of how lacking in importance the Second Amendment is in a reality based society that actually functions as God intended, and the Founders envisioned. However, in today's world God has become a secondary, or perhaps even lower on the pole, authority as compared to mans authority:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/30/shouldnt-matter-repeal-second-amendment/?hl=1&noRedirect=1

"The Constitution mentions both natural and legal rights, and the distinction is critical. Within the Bill of Rights, some activities, like speech, are innate human rights protected against government interference. Other rights, like a speedy trial, are legal rights, which are products of the structure the Constitution created.

This distinction is crucial, because natural rights are articulated as endowed by God, while legal rights are endowed by government. The Founding Fathers understood natural rights to exist independent of—or in spite of—government. They simply exist for free people walking the earth. Legal rights are granted by men, and can be altered or destroyed by changes to law or the structure of government. The natural and legal rights in the Constitution are so fundamental that the Bill of Rights was added as an explicit bar to encroachment from the federal government.

The right to keep and bear arms is a natural right. It can be derived and is protected in multiple ways. Inherently, humans have natural grounds for self-preservation and defense. This right is beyond the reach of any person or government. Individuals can protect themselves using any necessary tools or actions."
Government can't Grant you natural or god given rights.

Government is there to afferm and protect those rights.

This America established. Until the evil globalists took over. But we have turned the tables on them by denying Hillary. We are cleaning out the 3 letter agentcies and hunting down the satanists and pedophiles

Gitmo is ready and waiting........

What a beautiful morning. :)
Edited by Robertr2000, Mar 31 2018, 09:50 AM.
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tsalagi
Member Avatar

Robertr2000
Mar 31 2018, 09:39 AM
clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Like Switzerland.
That's not exactly true, males ages 18-51who have undergone military service previously are considered members of the Reserve, and as such are required to keep their weapon and gear, but I believe the weapons are all registered, and ammunition for said military grade weapon is strictly accounted for.

They're not so every Tom, Dick, and Harry can go Rambo
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Robertr2000
Member Avatar

Tsalagi
Mar 31 2018, 09:46 AM
Robertr2000
Mar 31 2018, 09:39 AM
clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Like Switzerland.
That's not exactly true, males ages 18-51who have undergone military service previously are considered members of the Reserve, and as such are required to keep their weapon and gear, but I believe the weapons are all registered, and ammunition for said military grade weapon is strictly accounted for.

They're not so every Tom, Dick, and Harry can go Rambo
All citizens and even foriegners with permanent status can purchase semiautomatic weapons.
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Old Trapper

The Inquisitor
Mar 31 2018, 12:50 AM
Old Trapper
Mar 31 2018, 12:27 AM
clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Then you would support 2-3 years of mandatory military service, right?
Now that's an idea....

Would that be for Males....Females or the Undecided?....
Constitution says all able bodied males. It is called the Militia.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Old Trapper

Robertr2000
Mar 31 2018, 09:44 AM
Old Trapper
Mar 30 2018, 12:36 PM
Right wingers, with their lack of understanding of the difference between natural (God Given) rights, and those rights "guaranteed" by government, may gain some understanding of how lacking in importance the Second Amendment is in a reality based society that actually functions as God intended, and the Founders envisioned. However, in today's world God has become a secondary, or perhaps even lower on the pole, authority as compared to mans authority:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/30/shouldnt-matter-repeal-second-amendment/?hl=1&noRedirect=1

"The Constitution mentions both natural and legal rights, and the distinction is critical. Within the Bill of Rights, some activities, like speech, are innate human rights protected against government interference. Other rights, like a speedy trial, are legal rights, which are products of the structure the Constitution created.

This distinction is crucial, because natural rights are articulated as endowed by God, while legal rights are endowed by government. The Founding Fathers understood natural rights to exist independent of—or in spite of—government. They simply exist for free people walking the earth. Legal rights are granted by men, and can be altered or destroyed by changes to law or the structure of government. The natural and legal rights in the Constitution are so fundamental that the Bill of Rights was added as an explicit bar to encroachment from the federal government.

The right to keep and bear arms is a natural right. It can be derived and is protected in multiple ways. Inherently, humans have natural grounds for self-preservation and defense. This right is beyond the reach of any person or government. Individuals can protect themselves using any necessary tools or actions."
Government can't Grant you natural or god given rights.

Government is there to afferm and protect those rights.

This America established. Until the evil globalists took over. But we have turned the tables on them by denying Hillary. We are cleaning out the 3 letter agentcies and hunting down the satanists and pedophiles

Gitmo is ready and waiting........

What a beautiful morning. :)
You didn't read the article once again. Thus you have no clue, as usual, as to what was said.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tsalagi
Member Avatar

Under the Swiss, from the link

http://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-gun-laws-rates-of-gun-deaths-2018-2?utm_source=hearst&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=allverticals#swiss-laws-are-designed-to-prevent-anyone-whos-violent-or-incompetent-from-owning-a-gun-8

"Swiss authorities decide on a local level whether to give people gun permits. They also keep a log of everyone who owns a gun in their region, known as a canton, though hunting rifles and some semiautomatic long arms are exempt from the permit requirement.

But cantonal police don't take their duty dolling out gun licenses lightly. They might consult a psychiatrist or talk with authorities in other cantons where a prospective gun buyer has lived before to vet the person. "

"People who've been convicted of a crime or have an alcohol or drug addiction aren't allowed to buy guns in Switzerland.

The law also states that anyone who "expresses a violent or dangerous attitude" won't be permitted to own a gun.

Gun owners who want to carry their weapon for "defensive purposes" also have to prove they can properly load, unload, and shoot their weapon and must pass a test to get a license. "

"Concealed-carry permits are tough to get in Switzerland, and most people who aren't security workers or police officers don't have one.

"We have guns at home, but they are kept for peaceful purposes," Martin Killias, a professor of criminology at Zurich University, told the BBC in 2013. "There is no point taking the gun out of your home in Switzerland because it is illegal to carry a gun in the street."

That's mostly true. Hunters and sports shooters are allowed to transport their guns only from their home to the firing range — they can't just stop off for coffee with their rifle.

And guns cannot be loaded during transport to prevent them from accidentally firing"

Not exactly the role model you thought Robert


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Old Trapper

Robertr2000
Mar 31 2018, 09:53 AM
Tsalagi
Mar 31 2018, 09:46 AM
Robertr2000
Mar 31 2018, 09:39 AM
clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Like Switzerland.
That's not exactly true, males ages 18-51who have undergone military service previously are considered members of the Reserve, and as such are required to keep their weapon and gear, but I believe the weapons are all registered, and ammunition for said military grade weapon is strictly accounted for.

They're not so every Tom, Dick, and Harry can go Rambo
All citizens and even foriegners with permanent status can purchase semiautomatic weapons.
Wrong, as usual:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/swiss-guns/553448/

Hunting weapons must be registered with the local Canton. Pistols, rifles, and semiautomatic weapons require a license. The paperwork is relatively easy to obtain—and Cantons can make exceptions for individuals. (Citizens of Albania, Algeria, Sri Lanka, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, and Turkey who live in the country as permanent residents are forbidden from buying guns because of their nations’ history of civil war.)
Edited by Old Trapper, Mar 31 2018, 10:49 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
nNeo

Bloody nonsense. There are no immutable "God given rights", that's simply a rhetorical device for the ones the framers felt should be beyond question. Phrases like "dependency on government-sanctioned rules" should be a red flag that you're reading libertarian idiocy. Click the X and get on with your day. Protip: "government-sanctioned rules" are the only ones with legal standing. "Natural rights philosophy" might as well be "unicorn magic".

Also the second does not exist primarily as a defense against government, at least not directly. That's a revisionist take pushed by the NRA et al beginning in the early 1980s. The framers were concerned about a large standing army, so citizen militias were a way of organizing for communal defense, but maintaining local control. This backfired in the whisky rebellion, failed miserably in 1812, and was subsequently abandoned in favour of a professional army. By the time of the civil war, central millitary power was both numerically and technologically superior to a degree that precluded citizen rebellion. The civil war reestablished federal primacy. Your AR isn't going to be much help against AC130s and M1 Abrams.
Edited by nNeo, Mar 31 2018, 11:41 AM.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Robertr2000
Member Avatar

Old Trapper
Mar 31 2018, 10:40 AM
Robertr2000
Mar 31 2018, 09:44 AM
Old Trapper
Mar 30 2018, 12:36 PM
Right wingers, with their lack of understanding of the difference between natural (God Given) rights, and those rights "guaranteed" by government, may gain some understanding of how lacking in importance the Second Amendment is in a reality based society that actually functions as God intended, and the Founders envisioned. However, in today's world God has become a secondary, or perhaps even lower on the pole, authority as compared to mans authority:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/30/shouldnt-matter-repeal-second-amendment/?hl=1&noRedirect=1

"The Constitution mentions both natural and legal rights, and the distinction is critical. Within the Bill of Rights, some activities, like speech, are innate human rights protected against government interference. Other rights, like a speedy trial, are legal rights, which are products of the structure the Constitution created.

This distinction is crucial, because natural rights are articulated as endowed by God, while legal rights are endowed by government. The Founding Fathers understood natural rights to exist independent of—or in spite of—government. They simply exist for free people walking the earth. Legal rights are granted by men, and can be altered or destroyed by changes to law or the structure of government. The natural and legal rights in the Constitution are so fundamental that the Bill of Rights was added as an explicit bar to encroachment from the federal government.

The right to keep and bear arms is a natural right. It can be derived and is protected in multiple ways. Inherently, humans have natural grounds for self-preservation and defense. This right is beyond the reach of any person or government. Individuals can protect themselves using any necessary tools or actions."
Government can't Grant you natural or god given rights.

Government is there to afferm and protect those rights.

This America established. Until the evil globalists took over. But we have turned the tables on them by denying Hillary. We are cleaning out the 3 letter agentcies and hunting down the satanists and pedophiles

Gitmo is ready and waiting........

What a beautiful morning. :)
You didn't read the article once again. Thus you have no clue, as usual, as to what was said.
Sure I did, what I posted was more accurate than the article.
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Robertr2000
Member Avatar

Old Trapper
Mar 31 2018, 10:46 AM
Robertr2000
Mar 31 2018, 09:53 AM
Tsalagi
Mar 31 2018, 09:46 AM
Robertr2000
Mar 31 2018, 09:39 AM
clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Like Switzerland.
That's not exactly true, males ages 18-51who have undergone military service previously are considered members of the Reserve, and as such are required to keep their weapon and gear, but I believe the weapons are all registered, and ammunition for said military grade weapon is strictly accounted for.

They're not so every Tom, Dick, and Harry can go Rambo
All citizens and even foriegners with permanent status can purchase semiautomatic weapons.
Wrong, as usual:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/swiss-guns/553448/

Hunting weapons must be registered with the local Canton. Pistols, rifles, and semiautomatic weapons require a license. The paperwork is relatively easy to obtain—and Cantons can make exceptions for individuals. (Citizens of Albania, Algeria, Sri Lanka, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, and Turkey who live in the country as permanent residents are forbidden from buying guns because of their nations’ history of civil war.)
You're new here so I'll give you a break.

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/switzerland.php

Current Gun-Control Law

Overview

The Weapons Act contains a comprehensive regime for the licensing of the acquisition and carrying of permitted weapons; the banning of certain weapons, including automatic firearms; and the production and trade in weapons, including the reporting obligations of dealers and a registration system that covers all privately owned guns, including those acquired by inheritance, but not including hunting rifles. The federal Weapons Act is implemented by the cantons and the cantons also keep registers of privately owned guns. The provisions on ammunition are in keeping with the principles of the Act, which aims to deter abuse while permitting lawful gunownership.[43]

Acquisition of Guns

An acquisition license is required primarily for handguns. Rifles and semiautomatic long arms that are customarily used by recreational hunters are exempt from the licensing requirement,[44] whereas fully automatic guns are banned.[45] An applicant for a weapons license must be at least eighteen years of age, may not have been placed under guardianship, may not give cause for suspicion that he would endanger himself or others with the weapon, and may not have a criminal record with a conviction for a violent crime or of several convictions for nonviolent crimes.[46] The license is issued by the canton of residence of the applicant but is valid throughout Switzerland. The license is valid for six months, maximally nine months.[47] It is usually valid for the acquisition of one weapon only.[48]

The acquisition license is required only if a weapon is acquired from a dealer. No license is required for transactions between private individuals. Instead, these are permitted as long as the seller verifies the identity and age of the buyer by checking an official identification document and as long as he has no reason to believe that the buyer has been or should be disqualified from gun ownership. The buyer may ascertain these circumstances by requesting information from the cantonal authorities, but only if the buyer consents in writing.[49]

Carrying of Guns

The carrying of a gun for defensive purposes requires a carrying license, which will be granted only if the applicant is qualified to acquire guns; demonstrates a need for the weapon to protect himself, others, or property against existing dangers; and has passed an exam to test his required theoretical knowledge and practical skill.

(continues)
https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/switzerland.php
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tsalagi
Member Avatar

Seems to me pretty restrictive?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
clone
Member Avatar
Director @ Center for Advanced Memetic Warfare
Old Trapper
Mar 31 2018, 12:27 AM
clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Then you would support 2-3 years of mandatory military service, right?
Works for Israel....works for me..... :popcorn:

Posted Image
Only liberals can choose not to go down the road to widespread, systematic violence.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
clone
Member Avatar
Director @ Center for Advanced Memetic Warfare
Tsalagi
Mar 31 2018, 09:46 AM
Robertr2000
Mar 31 2018, 09:39 AM
clone
Mar 30 2018, 12:48 PM
In reality, the government should require every family to own a gun, and the government should pay for it.

Finally, a government spending program that I could get behind.

:popcorn:

Like Switzerland.
That's not exactly true, males ages 18-51who have undergone military service previously are considered members of the Reserve, and as such are required to keep their weapon and gear, but I believe the weapons are all registered, and ammunition for said military grade weapon is strictly accounted for.

They're not so every Tom, Dick, and Harry can go Rambo
Yabbut...then there is reality....

Posted Image
Only liberals can choose not to go down the road to widespread, systematic violence.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · MFAB · Next Topic »
Add Reply