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High-Paying Trade Jobs Sit Empty, While High School Grads Line Up For University
Topic Started: Apr 26 2018, 01:37 PM (499 Views)
George Aligator
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PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 02:32 PM
Companies are offering signing bonuses and 6 digit salaries in PA for top quality welders. We have a steel company that's advertising for people on the radio, $27/hour with pension and zero contribution healthcare.

Maybe it's time to cut to government checks and see who decides to starve before working?
Those offers ^^^ are juicy but the kids aren't dumb. Compare the lifetime earnings and months of steady employment over working years and that BA degree is worth well over a million bucks more than a high school diploma.
Conservatism is a social disease
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Demagogue
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George Aligator
Apr 26 2018, 04:03 PM
PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 02:32 PM
Companies are offering signing bonuses and 6 digit salaries in PA for top quality welders. We have a steel company that's advertising for people on the radio, $27/hour with pension and zero contribution healthcare.

Maybe it's time to cut to government checks and see who decides to starve before working?
Those offers ^^^ are juicy but the kids aren't dumb. Compare the lifetime earnings and months of steady employment over working years and that BA degree is worth well over a million bucks more than a high school diploma.
Maybe in the 1980's or with a technical degree GA but kids doing 4 years for a sociology degree end up as assistant managers for McDonalds making $30k a year.

Well, maybe with the current better jobs environment they can do a little better and get slightly higher compensation. When I interview people I actually give more credit to someone who has 4 years of apprenticeship while working regularly than to someone who went to college on mommy & daddy's dollar for 4 years.

Generally speaking, I find people who have done a tour of service in the military or those who have done an apprenticeship to be better prepared than those who spend 4 years seeking a non-technical degree. Now, someone who went to a decent school and got an engineering degree, a physics degree, a mathematics degree, things like that, those folks are usually pretty solid.

People with arts degrees though are usually not worth the time it would take to train them to read a tape measure...
Edited by Demagogue, Apr 26 2018, 04:31 PM.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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PATruth
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George Aligator
Apr 26 2018, 04:03 PM
PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 02:32 PM
Companies are offering signing bonuses and 6 digit salaries in PA for top quality welders. We have a steel company that's advertising for people on the radio, $27/hour with pension and zero contribution healthcare.

Maybe it's time to cut to government checks and see who decides to starve before working?
Those offers ^^^ are juicy but the kids aren't dumb. Compare the lifetime earnings and months of steady employment over working years and that BA degree is worth well over a million bucks more than a high school diploma.
I think we both know college isn't for everyone. Besides, if a young man goes directly into the trades right out of school, doesn't borrow $100,000 for college, and already has 4 years earned towards his union pension he isn't sitting bad. I don't discourage college but I'm a little disappointed our society subtly disrespects men who work with their hands.
Edited by PATruth, Apr 26 2018, 04:30 PM.
"No. No he won't. We'll stop it."
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Coast2coast

Demagogue
Apr 26 2018, 04:28 PM
George Aligator
Apr 26 2018, 04:03 PM
PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 02:32 PM
Companies are offering signing bonuses and 6 digit salaries in PA for top quality welders. We have a steel company that's advertising for people on the radio, $27/hour with pension and zero contribution healthcare.

Maybe it's time to cut to government checks and see who decides to starve before working?
Those offers ^^^ are juicy but the kids aren't dumb. Compare the lifetime earnings and months of steady employment over working years and that BA degree is worth well over a million bucks more than a high school diploma.
Maybe in the 1980's or with a technical degree GA but kids doing 4 years for a sociology degree end up as assistant managers for McDonalds making $30k a year.

Well, maybe with the current better jobs environment they can do a little better and get slightly higher compensation. When I interview people I actually give more credit to someone who has 4 years of apprenticeship while working regularly than to someone who went to college on mommy & daddy's dollar for 4 years.

Generally speaking, I find people who have done a tour of service in the military or those who have done an apprenticeship to be better prepared than those who spend 4 years seeking a non-technical degree. Now, someone who went to a decent school and got an engineering degree, a physics degree, a mathematics degree, things like that, those folks are usually pretty solid.

People with arts degrees though are usually not worth the time it would take to train them to read a tape measure...
That's a rather judgmental attitude towards the arts.

The arts by the way has an amazing amount of talented and skilled electrical workers, carpenters and other technicians to mention but a few of the skills. Many of them were Arts Majors in college.






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George Aligator
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The nation-wide averages about education and earnings are significant:

Among millennials ages 25 to 32, median annual earnings for full-time working college-degree holders are $17,500 greater than for those with high school diplomas only. That gap steadily widened for each successive generation in the latter half of the 20th century.Feb 11, 2014
Study: Income Gap Between Young College and High School Grads ...
https://www.usnews.com/.../study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-...

but individual experiences differ from the averages, often by a lot, depending of the region in which they live and jobs for which they are applying.

As you know, I have a connection with our local Ivy League school, Dartmouth College. Their recent graduates are way above the national statistics but that isn't a "typical college." The trickier part is not just kids who couldn't succeed in college but the significant number of college kids who couldn't make it in a skilled trade. The goal is to let individuals sort it out based on what is best for them. I think moving to tuition-free education in state universities for students who can pass the admissions and keep up their GPA is a good national policy. It works in Scotland, as Trump has observed.
Conservatism is a social disease
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Demagogue
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Coast2coast
Apr 26 2018, 04:38 PM
Demagogue
Apr 26 2018, 04:28 PM
George Aligator
Apr 26 2018, 04:03 PM
PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 02:32 PM
Companies are offering signing bonuses and 6 digit salaries in PA for top quality welders. We have a steel company that's advertising for people on the radio, $27/hour with pension and zero contribution healthcare.

Maybe it's time to cut to government checks and see who decides to starve before working?
Those offers ^^^ are juicy but the kids aren't dumb. Compare the lifetime earnings and months of steady employment over working years and that BA degree is worth well over a million bucks more than a high school diploma.
Maybe in the 1980's or with a technical degree GA but kids doing 4 years for a sociology degree end up as assistant managers for McDonalds making $30k a year.

Well, maybe with the current better jobs environment they can do a little better and get slightly higher compensation. When I interview people I actually give more credit to someone who has 4 years of apprenticeship while working regularly than to someone who went to college on mommy & daddy's dollar for 4 years.

Generally speaking, I find people who have done a tour of service in the military or those who have done an apprenticeship to be better prepared than those who spend 4 years seeking a non-technical degree. Now, someone who went to a decent school and got an engineering degree, a physics degree, a mathematics degree, things like that, those folks are usually pretty solid.

People with arts degrees though are usually not worth the time it would take to train them to read a tape measure...
That's a rather judgmental attitude towards the arts.

The arts by the way has an amazing amount of talented and skilled electrical workers, carpenters and other technicians to mention but a few of the skills. Many of them were Arts Majors in college.






Hey, I can only tell you what my experience has been. They may work out well in the film and theater business. In the industrial construction and engineering world, not so much.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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Coast2coast

Both higher education and skills education has great value to them. One right for some, the other right for others. They should not be in competition with one another.




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Coast2coast

Demagogue
Apr 26 2018, 04:45 PM
Coast2coast
Apr 26 2018, 04:38 PM
Demagogue
Apr 26 2018, 04:28 PM
George Aligator
Apr 26 2018, 04:03 PM
PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 02:32 PM
Companies are offering signing bonuses and 6 digit salaries in PA for top quality welders. We have a steel company that's advertising for people on the radio, $27/hour with pension and zero contribution healthcare.

Maybe it's time to cut to government checks and see who decides to starve before working?
Those offers ^^^ are juicy but the kids aren't dumb. Compare the lifetime earnings and months of steady employment over working years and that BA degree is worth well over a million bucks more than a high school diploma.
Maybe in the 1980's or with a technical degree GA but kids doing 4 years for a sociology degree end up as assistant managers for McDonalds making $30k a year.

Well, maybe with the current better jobs environment they can do a little better and get slightly higher compensation. When I interview people I actually give more credit to someone who has 4 years of apprenticeship while working regularly than to someone who went to college on mommy & daddy's dollar for 4 years.

Generally speaking, I find people who have done a tour of service in the military or those who have done an apprenticeship to be better prepared than those who spend 4 years seeking a non-technical degree. Now, someone who went to a decent school and got an engineering degree, a physics degree, a mathematics degree, things like that, those folks are usually pretty solid.

People with arts degrees though are usually not worth the time it would take to train them to read a tape measure...
That's a rather judgmental attitude towards the arts.

The arts by the way has an amazing amount of talented and skilled electrical workers, carpenters and other technicians to mention but a few of the skills. Many of them were Arts Majors in college.






Hey, I can only tell you what my experience has been. They may work out well in the film and theater business. In the industrial construction and engineering world, not so much.
An Arts Major in Engineering? After Deus ex Machina what's left? :biggrin:

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_g R_
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Coast2coast
Apr 26 2018, 05:07 PM
Both higher education and skills education has great value to them. One right for some, the other right for others. They should not be in competition with one another.




One of my nieces is a 6th grade art teacher who drives an 18 wheeler in some of her off-time.
A few summers ago she got her CDL and now she actually owns her own rig.
Edited by _g R_, Apr 26 2018, 05:20 PM.
The real leftists are the silenced majority, the sleeping giant.
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BuckFan

Demagogue
Apr 26 2018, 03:53 PM
BuckFan
Apr 26 2018, 03:50 PM
PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 02:32 PM
Companies are offering signing bonuses and 6 digit salaries in PA for top quality welders. We have a steel company that's advertising for people on the radio, $27/hour with pension and zero contribution healthcare.

Maybe it's time to cut to government checks and see who decides to starve before working?
Do you have any evidence that people that could qualify for these jobs are sitting around collecting government checks? Any at all? Anything?
I think his point is that there are able bodied people sitting at their house collecting a welfare check while there union apprentice programs out there that can not get enough people to fully fill their classes.

With that said, you would still need to be able to pass the union's minimum qualifications and for the IBEW that does involve having the ability to do at the least algebra. Most locals have a test they give.
It is a Rightie myth that there are many people sitting around collecting welfare checks that could be working. When you look at the data, that just is not happening that much.

Here in Ohio they are looking at dropping unemployed able-bodied people off of Medicaid. They looked at the numbers and after you subtract those on disability, over 55, in school, in job training, in drug or alcohol treatment or dealing with serious mental illness it left ... 5%.

The problem with the proposal is that it really doesn't define who is exempt. In the past people with serious physical issues that work less than 30 hrs. were caught up in the "able to work" clauses and had to fight to get exempted. Single mothers were expected to work but got no assistance for child care, in the case covered, child care cost more than the assistance and her paycheck together.

I hate these posts that try to say there are all these bums sitting around collecting checks when that went out the window back in the 90's. It just is not happening.

I'm all for job training programs combined with adequate child care, health coverage including mental illness, and even relocation assistance to help those that need boosted above minimum wage, part time jobs that lead no where. Just don't give me this crap of the sterotypical welfare momma or pot-smoking bum.
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BuckFan

PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 04:29 PM
George Aligator
Apr 26 2018, 04:03 PM
PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 02:32 PM
Companies are offering signing bonuses and 6 digit salaries in PA for top quality welders. We have a steel company that's advertising for people on the radio, $27/hour with pension and zero contribution healthcare.

Maybe it's time to cut to government checks and see who decides to starve before working?
Those offers ^^^ are juicy but the kids aren't dumb. Compare the lifetime earnings and months of steady employment over working years and that BA degree is worth well over a million bucks more than a high school diploma.
I think we both know college isn't for everyone. Besides, if a young man goes directly into the trades right out of school, doesn't borrow $100,000 for college, and already has 4 years earned towards his union pension he isn't sitting bad. I don't discourage college but I'm a little disappointed our society subtly disrespects men who work with their hands.
No one should be borrowing $100,000 for a college education. I know there are that do but they are irresponsible and it is not necessary.
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lucash
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#NeverTrump
Katoblue
Apr 26 2018, 03:48 PM
lucash
Apr 26 2018, 03:37 PM
My advice to my younger siblings and other relatives has always been - college can be an invaluable experience (I don't regret my 4 years one bit) and a great thing to pursue, but also keep in mind the realities of attending a 2 or 4 year university/college (or more if you're going to get a Masters or Doctorate). Sometimes you can go into a trade but pursue what you wanted to do at a traditional college elsewhere, or on the side while you're working in your trade.
most people can't afford college today.. and why should they when they can get a bachelor and other degrees in apprenticeship programs and not pay for college, get paid on the job same rate as others do while being trained and don't end up with 100k in student loans when they finish the programs... that are 2, 4 and 6 year programs..

most students can't afford college today.. the apprenticeship programs are a way for those to get degree's and end up making more per year, than 4 year college students..





You didn't actually read my comment did you? I said to consider the realities of attending college (versus a trade school), but implied that ultimately ever person has to make their own choices. The only right choice is the one each person makes with respect to them considering all options and making their own decisions. You cannot force someone into something they don't want.

So consider all outcomes and consequences, and make what they feel is the best decision...be it trade or 2/4+ year college.

Here's an idea though, setting that all aside...why do we have to accept college being so damn expensive? My alma mater recently increased rates for the third time in the last 5 years, and for what....there's been no real increase in the quality (not to say it's bad). I think we need to focus less on telling people what to do and more on controlling the sky rocketing costs for a college education and dwindling resources available.

Edited by lucash, Apr 26 2018, 05:26 PM.
"...a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is detrimental...having lost the will..to demand...good..." - Rachel Carson
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Robertr2000
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High skill IT contracts are going for $12k - $15k




A Month right now. :usa:
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
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BuckFan

Demagogue
Apr 26 2018, 04:45 PM
Coast2coast
Apr 26 2018, 04:38 PM
Demagogue
Apr 26 2018, 04:28 PM
George Aligator
Apr 26 2018, 04:03 PM
PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 02:32 PM
Companies are offering signing bonuses and 6 digit salaries in PA for top quality welders. We have a steel company that's advertising for people on the radio, $27/hour with pension and zero contribution healthcare.

Maybe it's time to cut to government checks and see who decides to starve before working?
Those offers ^^^ are juicy but the kids aren't dumb. Compare the lifetime earnings and months of steady employment over working years and that BA degree is worth well over a million bucks more than a high school diploma.
Maybe in the 1980's or with a technical degree GA but kids doing 4 years for a sociology degree end up as assistant managers for McDonalds making $30k a year.

Well, maybe with the current better jobs environment they can do a little better and get slightly higher compensation. When I interview people I actually give more credit to someone who has 4 years of apprenticeship while working regularly than to someone who went to college on mommy & daddy's dollar for 4 years.

Generally speaking, I find people who have done a tour of service in the military or those who have done an apprenticeship to be better prepared than those who spend 4 years seeking a non-technical degree. Now, someone who went to a decent school and got an engineering degree, a physics degree, a mathematics degree, things like that, those folks are usually pretty solid.

People with arts degrees though are usually not worth the time it would take to train them to read a tape measure...
That's a rather judgmental attitude towards the arts.

The arts by the way has an amazing amount of talented and skilled electrical workers, carpenters and other technicians to mention but a few of the skills. Many of them were Arts Majors in college.






Hey, I can only tell you what my experience has been. They may work out well in the film and theater business. In the industrial construction and engineering world, not so much.
But then I would not have most engineering students design my website or do my advertising. I also would not be interested in having most engineers design the asthetics of a consumer product. The fact is they are two totally different disciplines and have careers tailored to their respective traits.

A good graphic designer can make a living.
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lucash
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#NeverTrump
Demagogue
Apr 26 2018, 04:28 PM
George Aligator
Apr 26 2018, 04:03 PM
PATruth
Apr 26 2018, 02:32 PM
Companies are offering signing bonuses and 6 digit salaries in PA for top quality welders. We have a steel company that's advertising for people on the radio, $27/hour with pension and zero contribution healthcare.

Maybe it's time to cut to government checks and see who decides to starve before working?
Those offers ^^^ are juicy but the kids aren't dumb. Compare the lifetime earnings and months of steady employment over working years and that BA degree is worth well over a million bucks more than a high school diploma.
Maybe in the 1980's or with a technical degree GA but kids doing 4 years for a sociology degree end up as assistant managers for McDonalds making $30k a year.

Well, maybe with the current better jobs environment they can do a little better and get slightly higher compensation. When I interview people I actually give more credit to someone who has 4 years of apprenticeship while working regularly than to someone who went to college on mommy & daddy's dollar for 4 years.

Generally speaking, I find people who have done a tour of service in the military or those who have done an apprenticeship to be better prepared than those who spend 4 years seeking a non-technical degree. Now, someone who went to a decent school and got an engineering degree, a physics degree, a mathematics degree, things like that, those folks are usually pretty solid.

People with arts degrees though are usually not worth the time it would take to train them to read a tape measure...
To be frank...if you're going to employ someone with an arts background who shows no aptitude for the field you're in (engineering?) then I think the problem isn't with the person applying but the company/HR department. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but the whole point of an application process is to clear out the unqualified applicants and find the ones that fit. Again, I may be misunderstanding that part of your comment, but it seems a silly comment.

I'd also propose that the problem is less the field they studied and more the individual they are. As much as the more technically and science inclined folks out there may say - we as a species DO need people involved in non-scientific/mathematical fields just as much as we need folks who are good at math, engineering, science, trades, etc. It's unfortunate, but there seems to be a stigma against the Arts. :cheers:
"...a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is detrimental...having lost the will..to demand...good..." - Rachel Carson
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lucash
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#NeverTrump
Katoblue
Apr 26 2018, 03:48 PM
lucash
Apr 26 2018, 03:37 PM
My advice to my younger siblings and other relatives has always been - college can be an invaluable experience (I don't regret my 4 years one bit) and a great thing to pursue, but also keep in mind the realities of attending a 2 or 4 year university/college (or more if you're going to get a Masters or Doctorate). Sometimes you can go into a trade but pursue what you wanted to do at a traditional college elsewhere, or on the side while you're working in your trade.
most people can't afford college today.. and why should they when they can get a bachelor and other degrees in apprenticeship programs and not pay for college, get paid on the job same rate as others do while being trained and don't end up with 100k in student loans when they finish the programs... that are 2, 4 and 6 year programs..

most students can't afford college today.. the apprenticeship programs are a way for those to get degree's and end up making more per year, than 4 year college students..





And there's the major problem, affordability. We need to do less bashing of Arts/social sciences majors and more work on decreasing the costs for degrees/increasing the aid available.

A society cannot live on trades alone.
"...a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is detrimental...having lost the will..to demand...good..." - Rachel Carson
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Robertr2000
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lucash
Apr 26 2018, 05:34 PM
Katoblue
Apr 26 2018, 03:48 PM
lucash
Apr 26 2018, 03:37 PM
My advice to my younger siblings and other relatives has always been - college can be an invaluable experience (I don't regret my 4 years one bit) and a great thing to pursue, but also keep in mind the realities of attending a 2 or 4 year university/college (or more if you're going to get a Masters or Doctorate). Sometimes you can go into a trade but pursue what you wanted to do at a traditional college elsewhere, or on the side while you're working in your trade.
most people can't afford college today.. and why should they when they can get a bachelor and other degrees in apprenticeship programs and not pay for college, get paid on the job same rate as others do while being trained and don't end up with 100k in student loans when they finish the programs... that are 2, 4 and 6 year programs..

most students can't afford college today.. the apprenticeship programs are a way for those to get degree's and end up making more per year, than 4 year college students..





And there's the major problem, affordability. We need to do less bashing of Arts/social sciences majors and more work on decreasing the costs for degrees/increasing the aid available.

A society cannot live on trades alone.
Increasing the aid available, and sending everyone to college that wishes to do so, IS the problem.

You being a Liberal, this concept is not even in your mental universe to understand.
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
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Coast2coast

_g R_
Apr 26 2018, 05:19 PM
Coast2coast
Apr 26 2018, 05:07 PM
Both higher education and skills education has great value to them. One right for some, the other right for others. They should not be in competition with one another.




One of my nieces is a 6th grade art teacher who drives an 18 wheeler in some of her off-time.
A few summers ago she got her CDL and now she actually owns her own rig.
I have this vision of her class projects being all truck related.
Posted Image

And her own truck being a work of art
Posted Image

I'm sure the extra money is great. Its a shame that a teacher in any discipline needs a second job to make ends meet - but that is a separate subject.





Edited by Coast2coast, Apr 26 2018, 05:54 PM.
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BuckFan

Robertr2000
Apr 26 2018, 05:37 PM
lucash
Apr 26 2018, 05:34 PM
Katoblue
Apr 26 2018, 03:48 PM
lucash
Apr 26 2018, 03:37 PM
My advice to my younger siblings and other relatives has always been - college can be an invaluable experience (I don't regret my 4 years one bit) and a great thing to pursue, but also keep in mind the realities of attending a 2 or 4 year university/college (or more if you're going to get a Masters or Doctorate). Sometimes you can go into a trade but pursue what you wanted to do at a traditional college elsewhere, or on the side while you're working in your trade.
most people can't afford college today.. and why should they when they can get a bachelor and other degrees in apprenticeship programs and not pay for college, get paid on the job same rate as others do while being trained and don't end up with 100k in student loans when they finish the programs... that are 2, 4 and 6 year programs..

most students can't afford college today.. the apprenticeship programs are a way for those to get degree's and end up making more per year, than 4 year college students..





And there's the major problem, affordability. We need to do less bashing of Arts/social sciences majors and more work on decreasing the costs for degrees/increasing the aid available.

A society cannot live on trades alone.
Increasing the aid available, and sending everyone to college that wishes to do so, IS the problem.

You being a Liberal, this concept is not even in your mental universe to understand.
It is who is capable and capability should not be driven by their ability to afford college. If someone has the aptitude for the studies they should be given the chance to go.

It used to be that only those born into a wealthy family could afford to go to college. Smarter, more adept students who were not blessed with the abundance of riches due to family line were destined to work in the factory or the stables. That is not what we should believe in nor pursue. We should pursue putting the most able in the right career.
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George Aligator
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There is a class hostility at the gap between the minority with a college education and the slightly greater majority who did not attend college. The gap comes from the disparate economic burden which our society has placed on the working class people whose families could not make the large capital investment necessary to make it possible for their kids to get a college education.

Education is the key to upward social mobility and the class barrier that , over the past fifty years or so, has prevented most of the working class from reaching the middle class is centered on the prohibitive cost of a college education. For a nation that professes belief in equality of opportunity, the cost of a four-year college to be paid by parents or by years of crushing debt to loan shark banks is a national disgrace, a disgrace that denies our nation much of the potential contribution of bright, hard-working kids whose chance at the American dream is blotted out by lack of family wealth. Shameful
Conservatism is a social disease
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