Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Perspectives. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Pedro Sánchez is sworn in as Spain's new prime minister
Topic Started: Jun 2 2018, 12:23 PM (708 Views)
estonianman
Member Avatar

Hughmac
Jun 4 2018, 04:50 AM
Quote:
 
estonianman: What Hugh is arguing for is a mixed economy, or in other words where the wealth generated by capitalism is squandered by socialism.

Hughmac:: I, Hugh, did not say that nor imply it. where the hell did you get "squander" from??? If you look at what I said, it was the complete opposite of squandering. I specifically said you can't spend more than your income.

estonianman: But it is. I already told you if the goal is to give money to the poor then the only efficient way to do that is by voluntary charity - which many rich do on a constant basis. The transfer efficiency of private charity is 80 - 100%, where as the transfer efficiency of public wealth redistribution is less than 50% due to the administration costs - which only grow mind you. Do you have public sector unions in Spain? If so then that efficiency is much lower.

If you are talking about the bigger picture - well yes socialist governments always squander, the USSR was one of the worst and despite Putin wanting to travel back in time there would be no way to resurrect that beached whale. Everything was routed through the politburo - it was the darwin award for centralization. Learn from it.


Now, you even went so far as to further quote me: "You can't run a country on pure socialism and you can't run one on pure capitalism - the two have to be balanced for the common good."

It turns out that I never said nor implied "squandering" in fact the key concept, which you thoughtfully quoted above was "the two have to be balanced"

Your take, right from the outset, was a complete imbalance where you even compare socialism to a 'parasite.' Yet unchecked capitalism is the very essence of the concept of "parasitism." However, I was no more speaking of unchecked capitalism as I was of unchecked socialism. I stated very clearly: balanced.

Capitalism has to be controlled as does socialism and they have to be balanced for a society to work.

I lived through an epoch of unchecked socialism in the UK in the 70s, so I know what I am talking about, so your observations that I, in some way, entertain some make-believe concept of socialism as the answer to everything is mind-boggling.

Cheers
Hughmac
Sorry I had to take a hiatus for several days.

The two points - squandering and the case for a mixed economy are two separate points. Related of course, but separate in the context of this thread. Squandering addresses the inefficiencies of socialism while the mixed economy related subject addresses the sustainability of socialism.

Now my reply ....

But how do you maintain that balance in a democratic socialist system? Here's the timeline to destruction - every instance socialism has been applied

1. People want stuff - if they can vote for politicians that will just give them other people's stuff that is what they are going to do.

2. If laws balance that equation so that only the people making less than 'x' qualify to get other people's stuff, or have 'y' dependents - then people will modify their behavior to qualify for those benefits. That means hiding income or having children. Usually both.

3. The productive people in society that are tired of having more and more of their stuff taken - leave.

4. The unproductive become the majority and the process accelerates

5. Doom

Every single time. Your prerogative to balance society assumes collective thought processes, that people will understand and maintain a balance. That is an incorrect assumption. When you apply human nature and psychology to socialism - the results are more accurately forecasted.

MEEK AND MILD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
estonianman
Member Avatar

Hughmac
Jun 4 2018, 05:13 AM
estonianman
Jun 3 2018, 11:36 AM
The problem lies in the incentives for success being lost when you nibble away at the meritocracy. Marxists/socialists incorrectly think that people want to work, but the reality is people just want a means to get "stuff". If that means they can modify their behavior to get a government benefit, they will do it. I see bonafide republicans who REEEEEEEEE about welfare brats all day long while their wife is on SS disability because of a back problem 20 years ago - ALL THE TIME in red states. Hence the "gibs me dat" entitled class grows which is why a mixed economy is ultimately unsustainable, especially in a democracy. Europe is expediting this process of cascading failure by putting socialists in seats of power while importing millions of economic migrants.
I agree with this completely. Many people don't want to work. There are cases of three generations of welfare-benefit receivers living under one roof. Some people are claiming benefits because 'they cannot work' they claim, but if the gravy train passed by without stopping, they would soon find that they are miraculously fit for work again when they start to get hungry.

Others genuinely cannot work, amongst whom was my wife, who after her first brain-tumour operation had virtually zero short-term memory and no peripheral vision. She had worked all her life (and she was damned hard worker), paid her taxes and received a disability allowance for the remaining four years of her life.

Thanks to National Public Health all her brain operations during that time - she had about seven - were possible, and it didn't cost us a penny more that what we had been paying through our taxes. She had the best possible treatment under Spain's top neurosurgeon, who was, fortunately for us, based in Granada's main hospital.

In the US, we would have had to sell everything we owned and borrowed off friend and family to have been able to afford what we had in Spain, yet you quote the US as the country with the best balance between capitalism and socialism?

Look, even in the armed forces (the right-wing's darling), is the essence of socialism in the sense of the state providing for the common good, yet there is waste and slacking off. I remember when somebody had stolen the laces from my shoes, so I went to the stores for new laces, which would have been docked from my salary, but the clerk just handed me new shoes complete with laces, because it was easier and less paperwork, which I wouldn't be docked for. Anybody who has done time in the forces knows that waste there is prolific.

Cheers
Hughmac
PS: You're going to have to wait for my next post, I'm afraid as this one is already my 3rd one, so I will have to wait for somebody else to post on this thread - sorry!
America is absolutely a socialist nation - and is surviving despite that. Our ability to create 'wealth' out of thin air and use the military to maintain that hegemony is the reason I said that america is the best example of what you consider a balanced system.

Looks can be deceiving however .... underneath there are big problems.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
MEEK AND MILD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
W A Mozart
Member Avatar

It didn't take long now, did it? Two weeks?

When socialists/commies come to power they quietly pull the support beams from the societal foundations. "Hey, ...this way! Come to Spain! ..."

So, I am sure ALL of Spain is leaping for joy today/tonight at the thought of Spain now being the "destination of choice" for half of Africa/Middle East/Pakistan! Way to go!

..."Spain's prime minister has said the country will take in a rescue ship stranded in the Mediterranean, to help avoid a humanitarian disaster.

Pedro Sánchez said he would give "safe harbour" to the Aquarius and the 629 people on board, after Italy and Malta both refused to let the ship dock.

The UN refugee agency and the EU had both called for a swift end to the stand-off between the two countries.

Mr Sánchez, who took office a week ago, said the ship would dock in Valencia." ...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44441386

:popcorn:

Mozart
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Robert Stout
Member Avatar

W A Mozart
Jun 11 2018, 12:27 PM
It didn't take long now, did it? Two weeks?

When socialists/commies come to power they quietly pull the support beams from the societal foundations. "Hey, ...this way! Come to Spain! ..."

So, I am sure ALL of Spain is leaping for joy today/tonight at the thought of Spain now being the "destination of choice" for half of Africa/Middle East/Pakistan! Way to go!

..."Spain's prime minister has said the country will take in a rescue ship stranded in the Mediterranean, to help avoid a humanitarian disaster.

Pedro Sánchez said he would give "safe harbour" to the Aquarius and the 629 people on board, after Italy and Malta both refused to let the ship dock.

The UN refugee agency and the EU had both called for a swift end to the stand-off between the two countries.

Mr Sánchez, who took office a week ago, said the ship would dock in Valencia." ...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44441386

:popcorn:

Mozart
Italy has dispatched a submarine to prevent this from happening .................. :hooray:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
estonianman
Member Avatar

W A Mozart
Jun 11 2018, 12:27 PM
It didn't take long now, did it? Two weeks?

When socialists/commies come to power they quietly pull the support beams from the societal foundations. "Hey, ...this way! Come to Spain! ..."

So, I am sure ALL of Spain is leaping for joy today/tonight at the thought of Spain now being the "destination of choice" for half of Africa/Middle East/Pakistan! Way to go!

..."Spain's prime minister has said the country will take in a rescue ship stranded in the Mediterranean, to help avoid a humanitarian disaster.

Pedro Sánchez said he would give "safe harbour" to the Aquarius and the 629 people on board, after Italy and Malta both refused to let the ship dock.

The UN refugee agency and the EU had both called for a swift end to the stand-off between the two countries.

Mr Sánchez, who took office a week ago, said the ship would dock in Valencia." ...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44441386

:popcorn:

Mozart
Aren’t these allegedly asylum seekers ....

From Northern Africa?
MEEK AND MILD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hughmac

W A Mozart
Jun 11 2018, 12:27 PM
It didn't take long now, did it? Two weeks?

When socialists/commies come to power they quietly pull the support beams from the societal foundations. "Hey, ...this way! Come to Spain! ..."

So, I am sure ALL of Spain is leaping for joy today/tonight at the thought of Spain now being the "destination of choice" for half of Africa/Middle East/Pakistan! Way to go!

..."Spain's prime minister has said the country will take in a rescue ship stranded in the Mediterranean, to help avoid a humanitarian disaster.

Pedro Sánchez said he would give "safe harbour" to the Aquarius and the 629 people on board, after Italy and Malta both refused to let the ship dock.

The UN refugee agency and the EU had both called for a swift end to the stand-off between the two countries.

Mr Sánchez, who took office a week ago, said the ship would dock in Valencia." ...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44441386

:popcorn:

Mozart
Well, you see, Mozzie, it is almost international law that if somebody is in distress on the high seas it is the duty of anybody who comes across them to offer aid. These people were in distress and needed a port. Spain offered a safe port. The Basque Country, under a right-wing nationalist party, the PNV, offered to take some of them too.

That's the reasoning behind it.

Now, my personal take is that Italy has sent a clear message that it's no good heading for their ports, so fewer will head that way. A sound tactic. Spain has shown that it will take in illegal immigrants/refugees.... more will follow knowing this.

However, these particular refugees are coming from Libya, so they can't make it directly from their to Spain. Spain gets the ones leaving from Algeria and Morocco. Libyans head for Italy and above all Malta, which is a stone's throw, relatively speaking. For this reason, immigrants out of Libya will continue to head for Malta and Italy regardlessly as Spain is out of reach, logistically speaking.

Cheers
Hughmac
Edited by Hughmac, Jun 11 2018, 04:36 PM.
H4T wrote: lobal] nuclear annihilation is preferable to the pre-Trump immigration/refugee policies.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hughmac

estonianman
Jun 9 2018, 12:39 PM
Hughmac
Jun 4 2018, 05:13 AM
estonianman
Jun 3 2018, 11:36 AM
The problem lies in the incentives for success being lost when you nibble away at the meritocracy. Marxists/socialists incorrectly think that people want to work, but the reality is people just want a means to get "stuff". If that means they can modify their behaviour to get a government benefit, they will do it. I see bonafide republicans who REEEEEEEEE about welfare brats all day long while their wife is on SS disability because of a back problem 20 years ago - ALL THE TIME in red states. Hence the "gibs me dat" entitled class grows which is why a mixed economy is ultimately unsustainable, especially in a democracy. Europe is expediting this process of cascading failure by putting socialists in seats of power while importing millions of economic migrants.
I agree with this completely. Many people don't want to work. There are cases of three generations of welfare-benefit receivers living under one roof. Some people are claiming benefits because 'they cannot work' they claim, but if the gravy train passed by without stopping, they would soon find that they are miraculously fit for work again when they start to get hungry.

Others genuinely cannot work, amongst whom was my wife, who after her first brain-tumour operation had virtually zero short-term memory and no peripheral vision. She had worked all her life (and she was damned hard worker), paid her taxes and received a disability allowance for the remaining four years of her life.

Thanks to National Public Health all her brain operations during that time - she had about seven - were possible, and it didn't cost us a penny more that what we had been paying through our taxes. She had the best possible treatment under Spain's top neurosurgeon, who was, fortunately for us, based in Granada's main hospital.

In the US, we would have had to sell everything we owned and borrowed off friend and family to have been able to afford what we had in Spain, yet you quote the US as the country with the best balance between capitalism and socialism?

Look, even in the armed forces (the right-wing's darling), is the essence of socialism in the sense of the state providing for the common good, yet there is waste and slacking off. I remember when somebody had stolen the laces from my shoes, so I went to the stores for new laces, which would have been docked from my salary, but the clerk just handed me new shoes complete with laces, because it was easier and less paperwork, which I wouldn't be docked for. Anybody who has done time in the forces knows that waste there is prolific.

Cheers
Hughmac
PS: You're going to have to wait for my next post, I'm afraid as this one is already my 3rd one, so I will have to wait for somebody else to post on this thread - sorry!
America is absolutely a socialist nation - and is surviving despite that. Our ability to create 'wealth' out of thin air and use the military to maintain that hegemony is the reason I said that america is the best example of what you consider a balanced system.

Looks can be deceiving however .... underneath there are big problems.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
I'm afraid that you don't create wealth out of thin air - your economy is buoyant only because of the petrol-dollar. The moment that countries start trading oil in Euros its all over for your economy. And there is no room for gloating because if the US economy goes down, the Western economy goes down, too. You invaded Iraq because Saddam had announced that he was going to sell oil in Euros. Trouble is, Iran will probably switched over after being screwed over by two-timing Trump under orders from Tel Aviv.

In other words, if Europe sticks to the nuclear deal with Iran, despite the US going back on it, then Iran will probably trade Iranian oil in Euros, which suits the Europeans fine but will probably start an avalanche of other countries abandoning the petrol-dollar.

Cheers
Hughmac
Edited by Hughmac, Jun 11 2018, 04:44 PM.
H4T wrote: lobal] nuclear annihilation is preferable to the pre-Trump immigration/refugee policies.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Harambe4Trump
Member Avatar

Hughmac
Jun 11 2018, 04:43 PM
estonianman
Jun 9 2018, 12:39 PM
Hughmac
Jun 4 2018, 05:13 AM
estonianman
Jun 3 2018, 11:36 AM
The problem lies in the incentives for success being lost when you nibble away at the meritocracy. Marxists/socialists incorrectly think that people want to work, but the reality is people just want a means to get "stuff". If that means they can modify their behaviour to get a government benefit, they will do it. I see bonafide republicans who REEEEEEEEE about welfare brats all day long while their wife is on SS disability because of a back problem 20 years ago - ALL THE TIME in red states. Hence the "gibs me dat" entitled class grows which is why a mixed economy is ultimately unsustainable, especially in a democracy. Europe is expediting this process of cascading failure by putting socialists in seats of power while importing millions of economic migrants.
I agree with this completely. Many people don't want to work. There are cases of three generations of welfare-benefit receivers living under one roof. Some people are claiming benefits because 'they cannot work' they claim, but if the gravy train passed by without stopping, they would soon find that they are miraculously fit for work again when they start to get hungry.

Others genuinely cannot work, amongst whom was my wife, who after her first brain-tumour operation had virtually zero short-term memory and no peripheral vision. She had worked all her life (and she was damned hard worker), paid her taxes and received a disability allowance for the remaining four years of her life.

Thanks to National Public Health all her brain operations during that time - she had about seven - were possible, and it didn't cost us a penny more that what we had been paying through our taxes. She had the best possible treatment under Spain's top neurosurgeon, who was, fortunately for us, based in Granada's main hospital.

In the US, we would have had to sell everything we owned and borrowed off friend and family to have been able to afford what we had in Spain, yet you quote the US as the country with the best balance between capitalism and socialism?

Look, even in the armed forces (the right-wing's darling), is the essence of socialism in the sense of the state providing for the common good, yet there is waste and slacking off. I remember when somebody had stolen the laces from my shoes, so I went to the stores for new laces, which would have been docked from my salary, but the clerk just handed me new shoes complete with laces, because it was easier and less paperwork, which I wouldn't be docked for. Anybody who has done time in the forces knows that waste there is prolific.

Cheers
Hughmac
PS: You're going to have to wait for my next post, I'm afraid as this one is already my 3rd one, so I will have to wait for somebody else to post on this thread - sorry!
America is absolutely a socialist nation - and is surviving despite that. Our ability to create 'wealth' out of thin air and use the military to maintain that hegemony is the reason I said that america is the best example of what you consider a balanced system.

Looks can be deceiving however .... underneath there are big problems.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
I'm afraid that you don't create wealth out of thin air - your economy is buoyant only because of the petrol-dollar. The moment that countries start trading oil in Euros its all over for your economy. And there is no room for gloating because if the US economy goes down, the Western economy goes down, too. You invaded Iraq because Saddam had announced that he was going to sell oil in Euros. Trouble is, Iran will probably switched over after being screwed over by two-timing Trump under orders from Tel Aviv.

In other words, if Europe sticks to the nuclear deal with Iran, despite the US going back on it, then Iran will probably trade Iranian oil in Euros, which suits the Europeans fine but will probably start an avalanche of other countries abandoning the petrol-dollar.

Cheers
Hughmac
:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

You and I both know that when the dollar is dethroned that it will be buy the Yuan and not the Euro . . .
Skipping leg day is the equivalent of a woman having an abortion. You're ashamed of it, and it was probably unnecessary.
#MAGA
#wallsnotwars
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Robert Stout
Member Avatar

Hughmac
Jun 11 2018, 04:43 PM
estonianman
Jun 9 2018, 12:39 PM
Hughmac
Jun 4 2018, 05:13 AM
estonianman
Jun 3 2018, 11:36 AM
The problem lies in the incentives for success being lost when you nibble away at the meritocracy. Marxists/socialists incorrectly think that people want to work, but the reality is people just want a means to get "stuff". If that means they can modify their behaviour to get a government benefit, they will do it. I see bonafide republicans who REEEEEEEEE about welfare brats all day long while their wife is on SS disability because of a back problem 20 years ago - ALL THE TIME in red states. Hence the "gibs me dat" entitled class grows which is why a mixed economy is ultimately unsustainable, especially in a democracy. Europe is expediting this process of cascading failure by putting socialists in seats of power while importing millions of economic migrants.
I agree with this completely. Many people don't want to work. There are cases of three generations of welfare-benefit receivers living under one roof. Some people are claiming benefits because 'they cannot work' they claim, but if the gravy train passed by without stopping, they would soon find that they are miraculously fit for work again when they start to get hungry.

Others genuinely cannot work, amongst whom was my wife, who after her first brain-tumour operation had virtually zero short-term memory and no peripheral vision. She had worked all her life (and she was damned hard worker), paid her taxes and received a disability allowance for the remaining four years of her life.

Thanks to National Public Health all her brain operations during that time - she had about seven - were possible, and it didn't cost us a penny more that what we had been paying through our taxes. She had the best possible treatment under Spain's top neurosurgeon, who was, fortunately for us, based in Granada's main hospital.

In the US, we would have had to sell everything we owned and borrowed off friend and family to have been able to afford what we had in Spain, yet you quote the US as the country with the best balance between capitalism and socialism?

Look, even in the armed forces (the right-wing's darling), is the essence of socialism in the sense of the state providing for the common good, yet there is waste and slacking off. I remember when somebody had stolen the laces from my shoes, so I went to the stores for new laces, which would have been docked from my salary, but the clerk just handed me new shoes complete with laces, because it was easier and less paperwork, which I wouldn't be docked for. Anybody who has done time in the forces knows that waste there is prolific.

Cheers
Hughmac
PS: You're going to have to wait for my next post, I'm afraid as this one is already my 3rd one, so I will have to wait for somebody else to post on this thread - sorry!
America is absolutely a socialist nation - and is surviving despite that. Our ability to create 'wealth' out of thin air and use the military to maintain that hegemony is the reason I said that america is the best example of what you consider a balanced system.

Looks can be deceiving however .... underneath there are big problems.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
I'm afraid that you don't create wealth out of thin air - your economy is buoyant only because of the petrol-dollar. The moment that countries start trading oil in Euros its all over for your economy. And there is no room for gloating because if the US economy goes down, the Western economy goes down, too. You invaded Iraq because Saddam had announced that he was going to sell oil in Euros. Trouble is, Iran will probably switched over after being screwed over by two-timing Trump under orders from Tel Aviv.

In other words, if Europe sticks to the nuclear deal with Iran, despite the US going back on it, then Iran will probably trade Iranian oil in Euros, which suits the Europeans fine but will probably start an avalanche of other countries abandoning the petrol-dollar.

Cheers
Hughmac
Europe will be lucky if they can trade McDonald's BigMacs with their Euros after Trump is finished emasculating them....In five years, the Euro will not exist........... :nana:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hughmac

Harambe4Trump
Jun 11 2018, 04:48 PM
Hughmac
Jun 11 2018, 04:43 PM
estonianman
Jun 9 2018, 12:39 PM
Hughmac
Jun 4 2018, 05:13 AM
estonianman
Jun 3 2018, 11:36 AM
The problem lies in the incentives for success being lost when you nibble away at the meritocracy. Marxists/socialists incorrectly think that people want to work, but the reality is people just want a means to get "stuff". If that means they can modify their behaviour to get a government benefit, they will do it. I see bonafide republicans who REEEEEEEEE about welfare brats all day long while their wife is on SS disability because of a back problem 20 years ago - ALL THE TIME in red states. Hence the "gibs me dat" entitled class grows which is why a mixed economy is ultimately unsustainable, especially in a democracy. Europe is expediting this process of cascading failure by putting socialists in seats of power while importing millions of economic migrants.
I agree with this completely. Many people don't want to work. There are cases of three generations of welfare-benefit receivers living under one roof. Some people are claiming benefits because 'they cannot work' they claim, but if the gravy train passed by without stopping, they would soon find that they are miraculously fit for work again when they start to get hungry.

Others genuinely cannot work, amongst whom was my wife, who after her first brain-tumour operation had virtually zero short-term memory and no peripheral vision. She had worked all her life (and she was damned hard worker), paid her taxes and received a disability allowance for the remaining four years of her life.

Thanks to National Public Health all her brain operations during that time - she had about seven - were possible, and it didn't cost us a penny more that what we had been paying through our taxes. She had the best possible treatment under Spain's top neurosurgeon, who was, fortunately for us, based in Granada's main hospital.

In the US, we would have had to sell everything we owned and borrowed off friend and family to have been able to afford what we had in Spain, yet you quote the US as the country with the best balance between capitalism and socialism?

Look, even in the armed forces (the right-wing's darling), is the essence of socialism in the sense of the state providing for the common good, yet there is waste and slacking off. I remember when somebody had stolen the laces from my shoes, so I went to the stores for new laces, which would have been docked from my salary, but the clerk just handed me new shoes complete with laces, because it was easier and less paperwork, which I wouldn't be docked for. Anybody who has done time in the forces knows that waste there is prolific.

Cheers
Hughmac
PS: You're going to have to wait for my next post, I'm afraid as this one is already my 3rd one, so I will have to wait for somebody else to post on this thread - sorry!
America is absolutely a socialist nation - and is surviving despite that. Our ability to create 'wealth' out of thin air and use the military to maintain that hegemony is the reason I said that america is the best example of what you consider a balanced system.

Looks can be deceiving however .... underneath there are big problems.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
I'm afraid that you don't create wealth out of thin air - your economy is buoyant only because of the petrol-dollar. The moment that countries start trading oil in Euros its all over for your economy. And there is no room for gloating because if the US economy goes down, the Western economy goes down, too. You invaded Iraq because Saddam had announced that he was going to sell oil in Euros. Trouble is, Iran will probably switched over after being screwed over by two-timing Trump under orders from Tel Aviv.

In other words, if Europe sticks to the nuclear deal with Iran, despite the US going back on it, then Iran will probably trade Iranian oil in Euros, which suits the Europeans fine but will probably start an avalanche of other countries abandoning the petrol-dollar.

Cheers
Hughmac
:rotflmao: :rotflmao:
You might want to check your home for a Nitrous oxide leak - it could explain the illogical laughing fits - H
Edited by Hughmac, Jun 12 2018, 04:10 AM.
H4T wrote: lobal] nuclear annihilation is preferable to the pre-Trump immigration/refugee policies.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hughmac

Robert Stout
Jun 11 2018, 05:34 PM
Hughmac
Jun 11 2018, 04:43 PM
estonianman
Jun 9 2018, 12:39 PM
Hughmac
Jun 4 2018, 05:13 AM
estonianman
Jun 3 2018, 11:36 AM
The problem lies in the incentives for success being lost when you nibble away at the meritocracy. Marxists/socialists incorrectly think that people want to work, but the reality is people just want a means to get "stuff". If that means they can modify their behaviour to get a government benefit, they will do it. I see bonafide republicans who REEEEEEEEE about welfare brats all day long while their wife is on SS disability because of a back problem 20 years ago - ALL THE TIME in red states. Hence the "gibs me dat" entitled class grows which is why a mixed economy is ultimately unsustainable, especially in a democracy. Europe is expediting this process of cascading failure by putting socialists in seats of power while importing millions of economic migrants.
I agree with this completely. Many people don't want to work. There are cases of three generations of welfare-benefit receivers living under one roof. Some people are claiming benefits because 'they cannot work' they claim, but if the gravy train passed by without stopping, they would soon find that they are miraculously fit for work again when they start to get hungry.

Others genuinely cannot work, amongst whom was my wife, who after her first brain-tumour operation had virtually zero short-term memory and no peripheral vision. She had worked all her life (and she was damned hard worker), paid her taxes and received a disability allowance for the remaining four years of her life.

Thanks to National Public Health all her brain operations during that time - she had about seven - were possible, and it didn't cost us a penny more that what we had been paying through our taxes. She had the best possible treatment under Spain's top neurosurgeon, who was, fortunately for us, based in Granada's main hospital.

In the US, we would have had to sell everything we owned and borrowed off friend and family to have been able to afford what we had in Spain, yet you quote the US as the country with the best balance between capitalism and socialism?

Look, even in the armed forces (the right-wing's darling), is the essence of socialism in the sense of the state providing for the common good, yet there is waste and slacking off. I remember when somebody had stolen the laces from my shoes, so I went to the stores for new laces, which would have been docked from my salary, but the clerk just handed me new shoes complete with laces, because it was easier and less paperwork, which I wouldn't be docked for. Anybody who has done time in the forces knows that waste there is prolific.

Cheers
Hughmac
PS: You're going to have to wait for my next post, I'm afraid as this one is already my 3rd one, so I will have to wait for somebody else to post on this thread - sorry!
America is absolutely a socialist nation - and is surviving despite that. Our ability to create 'wealth' out of thin air and use the military to maintain that hegemony is the reason I said that america is the best example of what you consider a balanced system.

Looks can be deceiving however .... underneath there are big problems.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
I'm afraid that you don't create wealth out of thin air - your economy is buoyant only because of the petrol-dollar. The moment that countries start trading oil in Euros its all over for your economy. And there is no room for gloating because if the US economy goes down, the Western economy goes down, too. You invaded Iraq because Saddam had announced that he was going to sell oil in Euros. Trouble is, Iran will probably switched over after being screwed over by two-timing Trump under orders from Tel Aviv.

In other words, if Europe sticks to the nuclear deal with Iran, despite the US going back on it, then Iran will probably trade Iranian oil in Euros, which suits the Europeans fine but will probably start an avalanche of other countries abandoning the petrol-dollar.

Cheers
Hughmac
Europe will be lucky if they can trade McDonald's BigMacs with their Euros after Trump is finished emasculating them....In five years, the Euro will not exist........... :nana:
Ah yes, the McDonald's BigMacs... the very pinnacle of American culinary skills, highlighting US cultural expression... H
Edited by Hughmac, Jun 12 2018, 04:10 AM.
H4T wrote: lobal] nuclear annihilation is preferable to the pre-Trump immigration/refugee policies.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ringotuna
Member Avatar

I went to high school w/ a guy named Pedro Sanchez....Apparently he's done pretty well for himself. :biggrin:
Ringoism: Never underestimate the advantages of being underestimated.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ringotuna
Member Avatar

Hughmac. I should be embarrassed to share this with you but I simply must.

Between 1999 & 2005 I was a partner in a small but growing seed business. Sometime around 2003 we received a visit from a group of Spanish agri-businessmen interested in importing and marketing our certified non-GMO products into Spain and the EU. It took less than half an hour into our business luncheon for everyone at the table to realize that one of my partners did not know the difference between Spain and Mexico. The elder partner and I were red faced with embarrassment.
Ringoism: Never underestimate the advantages of being underestimated.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hughmac

estonianman
Jun 9 2018, 12:35 PM
Hughmac
Jun 4 2018, 04:50 AM
Quote:
 
estonianman: What Hugh is arguing for is a mixed economy, or in other words where the wealth generated by capitalism is squandered by socialism.

Hughmac:: I, Hugh, did not say that nor imply it. where the hell did you get "squander" from??? If you look at what I said, it was the complete opposite of squandering. I specifically said you can't spend more than your income.

estonianman: But it is. I already told you if the goal is to give money to the poor then the only efficient way to do that is by voluntary charity - which many rich do on a constant basis. The transfer efficiency of private charity is 80 - 100%, where as the transfer efficiency of public wealth redistribution is less than 50% due to the administration costs - which only grow mind you. Do you have public sector unions in Spain? If so then that efficiency is much lower.

If you are talking about the bigger picture - well yes socialist governments always squander, the USSR was one of the worst and despite Putin wanting to travel back in time there would be no way to resurrect that beached whale. Everything was routed through the politburo - it was the darwin award for centralization. Learn from it.


Now, you even went so far as to further quote me: "You can't run a country on pure socialism and you can't run one on pure capitalism - the two have to be balanced for the common good."

It turns out that I never said nor implied "squandering" in fact the key concept, which you thoughtfully quoted above was "the two have to be balanced"

Your take, right from the outset, was a complete imbalance where you even compare socialism to a 'parasite.' Yet unchecked capitalism is the very essence of the concept of "parasitism." However, I was no more speaking of unchecked capitalism as I was of unchecked socialism. I stated very clearly: balanced.

Capitalism has to be controlled as does socialism and they have to be balanced for a society to work.

I lived through an epoch of unchecked socialism in the UK in the 70s, so I know what I am talking about, so your observations that I, in some way, entertain some make-believe concept of socialism as the answer to everything is mind-boggling.

Cheers
Hughmac
Sorry I had to take a hiatus for several days.

The two points - squandering and the case for a mixed economy are two separate points. Related of course, but separate in the context of this thread. Squandering addresses the inefficiencies of socialism while the mixed economy related subject addresses the sustainability of socialism.

Now my reply ....

But how do you maintain that balance in a democratic socialist system? Here's the timeline to destruction - every instance socialism has been applied

1. People want stuff - if they can vote for politicians that will just give them other people's stuff that is what they are going to do.

2. If laws balance that equation so that only the people making less than 'x' qualify to get other people's stuff, or have 'y' dependents - then people will modify their behavior to qualify for those benefits. That means hiding income or having children. Usually both.

3. The productive people in society that are tired of having more and more of their stuff taken - leave.

4. The unproductive become the majority and the process accelerates

5. Doom

Every single time. Your prerogative to balance society assumes collective thought processes, that people will understand and maintain a balance. That is an incorrect assumption. When you apply human nature and psychology to socialism - the results are more accurately forecasted.

I can't find little to fault your reasoning; I would go so far as to say that I share it.

However, we're dealing with human beings, who are notoriously illogical and greedy, yet make up the substance of society.

Therefore, balance is about giving people what they need, and not about giving them what they want. Balance is just that: equilibrium.

In a fully functional, economically sound, family unit, the wealth procuring capacity finds itself in equilibrium with the cost of maintaining all members of the said family, regardless of their contribution to its income. Thus the income provider and home manager agree to devote a sizeable proportion of the income to non-productive elements within the family, providing education, medical care and sustenance.

Some of those 'free-loading' offspring prove to be a good investment and provide return to the ageing hitherto income provider, whilst others turn out as investment disasters, predisposed to continue taking without ever providing.

As individuals we make sacrifices for our children on an emotional basis, rather than a 'business investment' whereas as a society we make sacrifices as a 'business investment' (free education, health service etc) rather than an emotional one, as there is no paternal/maternal link to the needy.

This business investment made by society in education and health care is because an unskilled, uneducated workforce is an unproductive one in ageing societies that are shifting between industrial output to a full services economy, as is the case with most of the First World. For the same reason that a sick society is also an unproductive one: it is better to keep workers healthy than it is to cure them once they are sick and in the latter case, cure them quickly and efficiently.

What to do with the lazy and lead swingers - leave them only work as an option. Financial assistance is not for them but for the willing-to-work in their time of need. The lazy will come round when they are hungry and if they don't, they will die off - no great loss.

Cheers
Hughmac
H4T wrote: lobal] nuclear annihilation is preferable to the pre-Trump immigration/refugee policies.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hughmac

ringotuna
Jun 12 2018, 04:32 AM
I went to high school w/ a guy named Pedro Sanchez....Apparently he's done pretty well for himself. :biggrin:
:tongue: :cheers: - H
H4T wrote: lobal] nuclear annihilation is preferable to the pre-Trump immigration/refugee policies.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hughmac

ringotuna
Jun 12 2018, 04:51 AM
Hughmac. I should be embarrassed to share this with you but I simply must.

Between 1999 & 2005 I was a partner in a small but growing seed business. Sometime around 2003 we received a visit from a group of Spanish agri-businessmen interested in importing and marketing our certified non-GMO products into Spain and the EU. It took less than half an hour into our business luncheon for everyone at the table to realize that one of my partners did not know the difference between Spain and Mexico. The elder partner and I were red faced with embarrassment.
Ouch! To be fair, the meeting was taking place in the USA; had it been in Spain there would have been no confusion on his part... hopefully. :biggrin:

What was the Spaniards' English like, by the way?

Cheers
Hughmac
Edited by Hughmac, Jun 12 2018, 05:49 AM.
H4T wrote: lobal] nuclear annihilation is preferable to the pre-Trump immigration/refugee policies.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
W A Mozart
Member Avatar

Hughmac
Jun 11 2018, 04:34 PM
W A Mozart
Jun 11 2018, 12:27 PM
It didn't take long now, did it? Two weeks?

When socialists/commies come to power they quietly pull the support beams from the societal foundations. "Hey, ...this way! Come to Spain! ..."

So, I am sure ALL of Spain is leaping for joy today/tonight at the thought of Spain now being the "destination of choice" for half of Africa/Middle East/Pakistan! Way to go!

..."Spain's prime minister has said the country will take in a rescue ship stranded in the Mediterranean, to help avoid a humanitarian disaster.

Pedro Sánchez said he would give "safe harbour" to the Aquarius and the 629 people on board, after Italy and Malta both refused to let the ship dock.

The UN refugee agency and the EU had both called for a swift end to the stand-off between the two countries.

Mr Sánchez, who took office a week ago, said the ship would dock in Valencia." ...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44441386

:popcorn:

Mozart
Well, you see, Mozzie, it is almost international law that if somebody is in distress on the high seas it is the duty of anybody who comes across them to offer aid. These people were in distress and needed a port. Spain offered a safe port. The Basque Country, under a right-wing nationalist party, the PNV, offered to take some of them too.

That's the reasoning behind it.

Now, my personal take is that Italy has sent a clear message that it's no good heading for their ports, so fewer will head that way. A sound tactic. Spain has shown that it will take in illegal immigrants/refugees.... more will follow knowing this.

However, these particular refugees are coming from Libya, so they can't make it directly from their to Spain. Spain gets the ones leaving from Algeria and Morocco. Libyans head for Italy and above all Malta, which is a stone's throw, relatively speaking. For this reason, immigrants out of Libya will continue to head for Malta and Italy regardlessly as Spain is out of reach, logistically speaking.

Cheers
Hughmac
Ah! You're too late.

George Soros has bought all of those refugee's one-way tickets to Morocco for the much more easier and welcoming passage.... :)

They're coming your way! Buy some extra cereal at the grocery store this weekend. Also, get rid of those boxes in your basement. Maybe we can fit 5 or 6 cots down there.

:popcorn:


Mozart
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
W A Mozart
Member Avatar

And oh by the way, to really grasp the insanity here you need to look at this map, ...er, logistics.... :)

Posted Image

Rather than bringing the 'migrants' back to Libya, which would be the SHORTEST route, the socialist/commie leader of Spain decided to welcome the new, and all, immigrants to Spain! "Hey, we'll leave the light on for you...!" They may even provide each and every one of them "a rucksack," some candy bars and a map, with a highlighted foot path over the Pyrenees. I am sure all of Spain is just thrilled, ... :shakeshead:

This is a perfect example as to how the 'far' left has destroyed Europe.


Mozart
Edited by W A Mozart, Jun 12 2018, 11:05 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hughmac

W A Mozart
Jun 12 2018, 11:01 AM
And oh by the way, to really grasp the insanity here you need to look at this map, ...er, logistics.... :)

Posted Image

Rather than bringing the 'migrants' back to Libya, which would be the SHORTEST route, the socialist/commie leader of Spain decided to welcome the new, and all, immigrants to Spain! "Hey, we'll leave the light on for you...!" They may even provide each and every one of them "a rucksack," some candy bars and a map, with a highlighted foot path over the Pyrenees. I am sure all of Spain is just thrilled, ... :shakeshead:

This is a perfect example as to how the 'far' left has destroyed Europe.


Mozart
Right, reality check: Libya doesn't have a government; as a state it ceased to exist, thanks to the Brits and French taking out Gaddafi. There is nobody, therefore, in Libya that is going to receive them and keep them there.

Let's see if I can explain this to you... Spain has an agreement with Morocco so that when illegal immigrants make it to Spain from Morocco, Spain flies them straight back and the Moroccan police are waiting for them when they land.

Keep paying attention...

Italy had such an agreement with Libya; i.e. Gaddafi, and it worked pretty well until France and the UK screwed it up. Now nobody in Libya is taking them back. Instead, it's the people-smuggling mafia that is running the coasts and ports.

Are you getting an inkling of common sense running through the tortured caverns of you mind, my most excellent friend?

Spain accepted those immigrants because by doing so it put the problem back into the EU's lap.

OK, hold that thought. Now let's move onto the ship, Aquarius. It has 650 refugees onboard and it only has a carry capacity for just over a hundred. The ship cannot take a long journey in these conditions, not to mention the lack of supplies, water and you name it. Which is why Italy has now offered two ships to accompany the Aquarius to Valencia by sharing the passengers and providing the supplies. Corsica, which is on the way, is also taking some of the refugees.

So, the Aquarius cannot head back to Libya for two reasons - it was plain lucky to get as far as Italy and it is at present stopped half way between Italy and Malta and in a bad state. Even if it could go back to Libya, it is only to the mafia controlling the port, so guess what will happen when it gets back?

What I find risible about Americans like yourself is that when in was the SS Exodus carrying Jewish refugees intent upon going to Palestine, you guys were totally against all the ports that turned them away, but because these guys are Muslims, you're all totally against any port wanting to take them in. Enough said.

Cheers
Hughmac
Edited by Hughmac, Jun 12 2018, 02:48 PM.
H4T wrote: lobal] nuclear annihilation is preferable to the pre-Trump immigration/refugee policies.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Harambe4Trump
Member Avatar

Hughmac
Jun 12 2018, 02:45 PM
W A Mozart
Jun 12 2018, 11:01 AM
And oh by the way, to really grasp the insanity here you need to look at this map, ...er, logistics.... :)

Posted Image

Rather than bringing the 'migrants' back to Libya, which would be the SHORTEST route, the socialist/commie leader of Spain decided to welcome the new, and all, immigrants to Spain! "Hey, we'll leave the light on for you...!" They may even provide each and every one of them "a rucksack," some candy bars and a map, with a highlighted foot path over the Pyrenees. I am sure all of Spain is just thrilled, ... :shakeshead:

This is a perfect example as to how the 'far' left has destroyed Europe.


Mozart
Right, reality check: Libya doesn't have a government; as a state it ceased to exist, thanks to the Brits and French taking out Gaddafi. There is nobody, therefore, in Libya that is going to receive them and keep them there.

Let's see if I can explain this to you... Spain has an agreement with Morocco so that when illegal immigrants make it to Spain from Morocco, Spain flies them straight back and the Moroccan police are waiting for them when they land.

Keep paying attention...

Italy had such an agreement with Libya; i.e. Gaddafi, and it worked pretty well until France and the UK screwed it up. Now nobody in Libya is taking them back. Instead, it's the people-smuggling mafia that is running the coasts and ports.

Are you getting an inkling of common sense running through the tortured caverns of you mind, my most excellent friend?

Spain accepted those immigrants because by doing so it put the problem back into the EU's lap.

OK, hold that thought. Now let's move onto the ship, Aquarius. It has 650 refugees onboard and it only has a carry capacity for just over a hundred. The ship cannot take a long journey in these conditions, not to mention the lack of supplies, water and you name it. Which is why Italy has now offered two ships to accompany the Aquarius to Valencia by sharing the passengers and providing the supplies. Corsica, which is on the way, is also taking some of the refugees.

So, the Aquarius cannot head back to Libya for two reasons - it was plain lucky to get as far as Italy and it is at present stopped half way between Italy and Malta and in a bad state. Even if it could go back to Libya, it is only to the mafia controlling the port, so guess what will happen when it gets back?

What I find risible about Americans like yourself is that when in was the SS Exodus carrying Jewish refugees intent upon going to Palestine, you guys were totally against all the ports that turned them away, but because these guys are Muslims, you're all totally against any port wanting to take them in. Enough said.

Cheers
Hughmac
America had no obligation to admit the SS Exodus and demonstrated moral clarity by refusing their entry then, something it lost before Trump’s election. They should have made a B-line to the Dominican Republic.
Skipping leg day is the equivalent of a woman having an abortion. You're ashamed of it, and it was probably unnecessary.
#MAGA
#wallsnotwars
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · UnitedStates.com FOREIGN* & DEFENSE · Next Topic »
Add Reply