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How to make the economy work for everyone rather than a privileged few
Topic Started: Aug 8 2018, 06:11 PM (314 Views)
_g R_
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The last time America faced anything comparable to the concentration of wealth we face now, occurred at the turn of the last century.

Then, President Teddy Roosevelt warned that “a small class of enormously wealthy and economically powerful men, whose chief object is to hold and increase their power,” could destroy American democracy.

Roosevelt’s answer was to tax wealth. The estate tax was enacted in 1916 and the capital gains tax in 1922.

But since then, both have been eroded. As the rich have accumulated greater wealth, they have also amassed more political power, and they’ve used that political power to reduce their taxes.


Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, helped create a movement against dynastic wealth. Trump and today’s congressional Republicans will not follow in his footsteps. I doubt even today’s Democrats would do so if they had a chance. Big money has become too powerful on both sides of the aisle.

https://www.newsweek.com/robert-reich-restore-our-democracy-we-must-tax-wealth-666856
Edited by _g R_, Aug 8 2018, 06:16 PM.
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_g R_
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There’s another part of the tax code that Cohn might also have been referring to – capital gains taxes paid on the soaring values of the wealthy people’s stocks, bonds, mansions and works of art, when they sell them.

If the wealthy hold on to these assets until they die, the tax code allows their heirs to inherit them without paying any of these capital gains taxes. According to the Congressional Budget Office, this loophole saves heirs $50 billion a year.

The estate and capital gains taxes were originally designed to prevent the growth of large dynasties in the U.S. and to reduce inequality.

They’ve been failing to do that. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.


Many of today’s super rich never did a day’s work in their lives. Six out of the ten wealthiest Americans alive today are heirs to prominent fortunes. The Walmart heirs alone have more wealth than the bottom 42 percent of Americans combined.

Rich millennials will soon acquire even more of the nation’s wealth.
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George Aligator
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Should the economy work for everyone? Is the economy community property? If so, shouldn't the economy be administered by the government of an elective democracy? My God! That is (gasp!) socialism!!!

Should the economy work for those who own it, i.e. the citizens who own the means of production which constitute the operative phase of the national economy? These owners of the economy,the capitalists, are entitled to use their private wealth with the same freedom as all other citizens. In a democracy, all citizens are equal and all enjoy the right to private property. The government has no justification for taking the property of some citizens and giving it other citizens. The government exists to provide the same benefits (defense, highways etc.) to all citizens equally, not to take things from one group and give them to another That is what our country was founded for and what our Constitution demands.
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_g R_
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George Aligator
Aug 8 2018, 07:27 PM
Should the economy work for everyone? Is the economy community property? If so, shouldn't the economy be administered by the government of an elective democracy? My God! That is (gasp!) socialism!!!

Should the economy work for those who own it, i.e. the citizens who own the means of production which constitute the operative phase of the national economy? These owners of the economy,the capitalists, are entitled to use their private wealth with the same freedom as all other citizens. In a democracy, all citizens are equal and all enjoy the right to private property. The government has no justification for taking the property of some citizens and giving it other citizens. The government exists to provide the same benefits (defense, highways etc.) to all citizens equally, not to take things from one group and give them to another That is what our country was founded for and what our Constitution demands.
By and large we did have an economy which worked for everyone through most of the 50's, 60's and 70's until the outsourcing of labor overseas began.

Thom Hartmann: So, describe for us the current crisis of capitalism - how did it begin and what makes it different than previous crises ?

Richard Wolff: I think the way this one began really takes us at least back to the 1970s. Something happened in the 1970s, kind of everyone agrees that the capitalists in the United States and other parts of the world made a fundamental decision to change course. They were no longer going to stay in the parts of the world where capitalism had grown up: Western Europe, North America and Japan. They were going to leave. They were going to go to places where they could produce at a much lower wage level for workers, and I'm thinking here of China, India, Brazil, places like that. And they were only going to stay in their old countries under the new conditions of pressing down the wages, getting the government to cut taxes on them, basically under the threat that if you don't do what we want where we were born, even more of us will be leaving and going elsewhere.

This put the country into a vice. It didn't know how to react, the politicians were afraid to offend these corporations. Meanwhile the corporations became richer and richer, precisely because they were paying low wages around the rest of the world. And you have a crisis building because the rich are becoming richer and richer, they control the political situation more and more and can make it serve this very process. And along the way American middle class disappears, well-paying jobs disappear, more and more of the jobs are insecure, without benefits, because production has an option. Capitalists can leave, and they do in huge numbers.

The end result is a society polarized by most wealth in the hands of a few, the mass of people upon which this economy was built in the 20th century can't afford to shop any more, we have dead malls across America becoming major eyesores literally everywhere. We have collapsed industrial cities - Detroit, Cleveland, Camden, New Jersey, my home town of Youngstown, Ohio and on and on and on. So what you're seeing is not a crisis of this or that detail, this or that industry. What you're seeing is a crisis of a system that in its own logic has produced conditions that make it harder and harder to solve the very problems that this system is creating.

And that's usually a sign of a system coming to the end of its historical period.
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PATruth
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How to make the economy work for everyone? That's a good question.

First step is to have everyone participate. You can't be part of a winning team if you don't practice and play the game. This really isn't difficult, learn a skill and education, that is the path to success. We don't need a team of experts to state the obvious. Second, avoid the obvious pitfalls, avoid drugs, avoid crime and avoid getting pregnant. Again, common sense solutions to the problem.

The thought wealth just naturally flows to an individual in a prosperous economy for doing nothing is a concept pushed by my liberal friends for decades. It is not only flawed it is downright dangerous. This "entitlement" mentality has created millions of underachievers that blame the "system" for their failures.

Capitalism creates unlimited opportunity, to fail in the American economy takes dedication. Some think the answer is to pay people to fail, treat them as victims and penalize the working class. It's a great political weapon, one of our political parties have millions of loyal voters dependent on the government. They have been convinced they have done nothing wrong and deserve what others produce.

We have focused far too long on penalizing the hardest working instead of demanding accountability and effort from the poor. Poor people aren't victims, they are a product of their lifestyles and bad decision making. I personally have NEVER met a hard working person that lives in poverty.
"No. No he won't. We'll stop it."
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_g R_
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Nothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
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PATruth
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_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 09:54 AM
Nothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
Just because my garden produces ten times as much as my neighbors doesn't mean I'm to blame if he goes hungry. The left's answer would be to punish me by taking most of what I grow, eliminating the incentive to grow more. The rights answer is to teach my neighbor how to garden.

The same problem, two different solutions.
Edited by PATruth, Aug 9 2018, 09:58 AM.
"No. No he won't. We'll stop it."
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_g R_
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PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 09:58 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 09:54 AM
Nothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
Just because my garden produces ten times as much as my neighbors doesn't mean I'm to blame if he goes hungry. The left's answer would be to punish me by taking most of what I grow, eliminating the incentive to grow more. The rights answer is to teach my neighbor how to garden.

The same problem, two different solutions.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us in very questionable ways.
Edited by _g R_, Aug 9 2018, 10:08 AM.
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PATruth
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_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:06 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 09:58 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 09:54 AM
Nothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
Just because my garden produces ten times as much as my neighbors doesn't mean I'm to blame if he goes hungry. The left's answer would be to punish me by taking most of what I grow, eliminating the incentive to grow more. The rights answer is to teach my neighbor how to garden.

The same problem, two different solutions.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us.
The main problem with socialism is the socialists. Socialists don't know when to stop, the power to tax, redistribute and control is like crack to a crack addict. There is no such thing as recreational socialism, given time it always produces massive economic failure, poverty and government dependence. Socialism fails because it works counter to human nature. The worst socialist failures have tried, through brutal tactics, to reengineer human nature. We are a self serving species, we don't work for the good of the group, we work to serve our own self interests. Capitalism works because the sum total of everyone working in their own best interest is a productive and free society.
"No. No he won't. We'll stop it."
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Tsalagi
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PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:14 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:06 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 09:58 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 09:54 AM
Nothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
Just because my garden produces ten times as much as my neighbors doesn't mean I'm to blame if he goes hungry. The left's answer would be to punish me by taking most of what I grow, eliminating the incentive to grow more. The rights answer is to teach my neighbor how to garden.

The same problem, two different solutions.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us.
The main problem with socialism is the socialists. Socialists don't know when to stop, the power to tax, redistribute and control is like crack to a crack addict. There is no such thing as recreational socialism, given time it always produces massive economic failure, poverty and government dependence. Socialism fails because it works counter to human nature. The worst socialist failures have tried, through brutal tactics, to reengineer human nature. We are a self serving species, we don't work for the good of the group, we work to serve our own self interests. Capitalism works because the sum total of everyone working in their own best interest is a productive and free society.
My people work for the benefit of the Tribe, worked for us for over 14,000 years on this continent, we didn't know our way of life was bad til the Europeans got here and told us we had to change to their way of thinking.
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PATruth
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Tsalagi
Aug 9 2018, 10:19 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:14 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:06 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 09:58 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 09:54 AM
Nothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
Just because my garden produces ten times as much as my neighbors doesn't mean I'm to blame if he goes hungry. The left's answer would be to punish me by taking most of what I grow, eliminating the incentive to grow more. The rights answer is to teach my neighbor how to garden.

The same problem, two different solutions.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us.
The main problem with socialism is the socialists. Socialists don't know when to stop, the power to tax, redistribute and control is like crack to a crack addict. There is no such thing as recreational socialism, given time it always produces massive economic failure, poverty and government dependence. Socialism fails because it works counter to human nature. The worst socialist failures have tried, through brutal tactics, to reengineer human nature. We are a self serving species, we don't work for the good of the group, we work to serve our own self interests. Capitalism works because the sum total of everyone working in their own best interest is a productive and free society.
My people work for the benefit of the Tribe, worked for us for over 14,000 years on this continent, we didn't know our way of life was bad til the Europeans got here and told us we had to change to their way of thinking.
You make an EXCELLENT point! Most American Native people lived a communal, communist existence, that's why after 14,000 years they were still a tribal people. It's as though many tribes were frozen in time, no technology, no advancement, still hunter gatherers. There was little specialty of labor, no real economic competition and no one wanted to live better then the others. I'm not making a quality judgment, some people would be content to remain tribal and lead a simple life.
"No. No he won't. We'll stop it."
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_g R_
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Tsalagi
Aug 9 2018, 10:19 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:14 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:06 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 09:58 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 09:54 AM
Nothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
Just because my garden produces ten times as much as my neighbors doesn't mean I'm to blame if he goes hungry. The left's answer would be to punish me by taking most of what I grow, eliminating the incentive to grow more. The rights answer is to teach my neighbor how to garden.

The same problem, two different solutions.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us.
The main problem with socialism is the socialists. Socialists don't know when to stop, the power to tax, redistribute and control is like crack to a crack addict. There is no such thing as recreational socialism, given time it always produces massive economic failure, poverty and government dependence. Socialism fails because it works counter to human nature. The worst socialist failures have tried, through brutal tactics, to reengineer human nature. We are a self serving species, we don't work for the good of the group, we work to serve our own self interests. Capitalism works because the sum total of everyone working in their own best interest is a productive and free society.
My people work for the benefit of the Tribe, worked for us for over 14,000 years on this continent, we didn't know our way of life was bad til the Europeans got here and told us we had to change to their way of thinking.
That the Europeans 'discovered' the "New World" is the biggest lie in American history. The Europeans found another place they could exploit, the same way they did everywhere ...Africa, India, Australia... That's what happened.
Edited by _g R_, Aug 9 2018, 10:30 AM.
We are the 99 %
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_g R_
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_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:28 AM
Tsalagi
Aug 9 2018, 10:19 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:14 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:06 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 09:58 AM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepNothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us.
The main problem with socialism is the socialists. Socialists don't know when to stop, the power to tax, redistribute and control is like crack to a crack addict. There is no such thing as recreational socialism, given time it always produces massive economic failure, poverty and government dependence. Socialism fails because it works counter to human nature. The worst socialist failures have tried, through brutal tactics, to reengineer human nature. We are a self serving species, we don't work for the good of the group, we work to serve our own self interests. Capitalism works because the sum total of everyone working in their own best interest is a productive and free society.
My people work for the benefit of the Tribe, worked for us for over 14,000 years on this continent, we didn't know our way of life was bad til the Europeans got here and told us we had to change to their way of thinking.
That the Europeans 'discovered' the "New World" is the biggest lie in American history. The Europeans found another place they could exploit, the same way they did everywhere ...Africa, India, Australia... That's what happened. And they've rewritten school books to the point where most Americans are clueless of our own past...they've even taken out "The Indian Removal Act' from history books.
Edited by _g R_, Aug 9 2018, 10:33 AM.
We are the 99 %
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Tsalagi
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PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:28 AM
Tsalagi
Aug 9 2018, 10:19 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:14 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:06 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 09:58 AM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepNothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us.
The main problem with socialism is the socialists. Socialists don't know when to stop, the power to tax, redistribute and control is like crack to a crack addict. There is no such thing as recreational socialism, given time it always produces massive economic failure, poverty and government dependence. Socialism fails because it works counter to human nature. The worst socialist failures have tried, through brutal tactics, to reengineer human nature. We are a self serving species, we don't work for the good of the group, we work to serve our own self interests. Capitalism works because the sum total of everyone working in their own best interest is a productive and free society.
My people work for the benefit of the Tribe, worked for us for over 14,000 years on this continent, we didn't know our way of life was bad til the Europeans got here and told us we had to change to their way of thinking.
You make an EXCELLENT point! Most American Native people lived a communal, communist existence, that's why after 14,000 years they were still a tribal people. It's as though many tribes were frozen in time, no technology, no advancement, still hunter gatherers. There was little specialty of labor, no real economic competition and no one wanted to live better then the others. I'm not making a quality judgment, some people would be content to remain tribal and lead a simple life.
Not judging anyone either, the European thought being a greedy, self-absorbed, selfish, dog -eat-dog philosophy was preferable to a way of life that tought actually caring for the sick, the infirm, the elderly, and the young before yourself was bad.

My Grandfather recalls a story by his grandfather, that for the European, there was never enough, he'd always want more, that his greed would be a hole that could never be filled. I'm not making a quality of life judgement, some people can never be content, and be willing to step on their young to lead a life that is never enough.
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PATruth
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Tsalagi
Aug 9 2018, 10:53 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:28 AM
Tsalagi
Aug 9 2018, 10:19 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:14 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:06 AM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepNothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us.
The main problem with socialism is the socialists. Socialists don't know when to stop, the power to tax, redistribute and control is like crack to a crack addict. There is no such thing as recreational socialism, given time it always produces massive economic failure, poverty and government dependence. Socialism fails because it works counter to human nature. The worst socialist failures have tried, through brutal tactics, to reengineer human nature. We are a self serving species, we don't work for the good of the group, we work to serve our own self interests. Capitalism works because the sum total of everyone working in their own best interest is a productive and free society.
My people work for the benefit of the Tribe, worked for us for over 14,000 years on this continent, we didn't know our way of life was bad til the Europeans got here and told us we had to change to their way of thinking.
You make an EXCELLENT point! Most American Native people lived a communal, communist existence, that's why after 14,000 years they were still a tribal people. It's as though many tribes were frozen in time, no technology, no advancement, still hunter gatherers. There was little specialty of labor, no real economic competition and no one wanted to live better then the others. I'm not making a quality judgment, some people would be content to remain tribal and lead a simple life.
Not judging anyone either, the European thought being a greedy, self-absorbed, selfish, dog -eat-dog philosophy was preferable to a way of life that tought actually caring for the sick, the infirm, the elderly, and the young before yourself was bad.

My Grandfather recalls a story by his grandfather, that for the European, there was never enough, he'd always want more, that his greed would be a hole that could never be filled. I'm not making a quality of life judgement, some people can never be content, and be willing to step on their young to lead a life that is never enough.
Humans are competitive creatures. We evolved fighting for land, resources and food. Survival of the fittest isn't a theory, it's the only rule that applied for the better part of our existence. Your tribe survived because they displaced, killed or fought off competing tribes. Native Americans were far from the peaceful people some would like to portray, most were fearless warriors.

The difference is I accept human nature and try to work within our hard wired tendencies, socialism tries to work counter to human nature. The good news is we also evolved to care for the sick, our elders and the physically unable. That doesn't change our competitive nature. We are both here because our forefathers were strong enough to kill their competition. We are all the decedents of murderers.
"No. No he won't. We'll stop it."
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estonianman
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Capitalism and free market enterprise

It’s the only one so far that works
MEEK AND MILD
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_g R_
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There is unrest in the forest, there is
Trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight, and
The oaks ignore their pleas.
Trouble with the maples, and
They're quite convinced they're right,
They say the oaks are just too lofty, and they
Grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made. And they
Wonder why the maples can't be
Happy in their shade.
There is trouble in the forest, and
The creatures all have fled, as the
Maples scream, "Oppression!" and the
Oaks just shake their heads.
So the maples formed a union, and
Demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light!"
Now there's no more oak oppression, for
They passed a noble law. And
The trees are all kept equal, by
Hatchet,
Axe,
and Saw.
We are the 99 %
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George Aligator
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Tsalagi
Aug 9 2018, 10:53 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:28 AM
Tsalagi
Aug 9 2018, 10:19 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:14 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:06 AM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepNothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us.
The main problem with socialism is the socialists. Socialists don't know when to stop, the power to tax, redistribute and control is like crack to a crack addict. There is no such thing as recreational socialism, given time it always produces massive economic failure, poverty and government dependence. Socialism fails because it works counter to human nature. The worst socialist failures have tried, through brutal tactics, to reengineer human nature. We are a self serving species, we don't work for the good of the group, we work to serve our own self interests. Capitalism works because the sum total of everyone working in their own best interest is a productive and free society.
My people work for the benefit of the Tribe, worked for us for over 14,000 years on this continent, we didn't know our way of life was bad til the Europeans got here and told us we had to change to their way of thinking.
You make an EXCELLENT point! Most American Native people lived a communal, communist existence, that's why after 14,000 years they were still a tribal people. It's as though many tribes were frozen in time, no technology, no advancement, still hunter gatherers. There was little specialty of labor, no real economic competition and no one wanted to live better then the others. I'm not making a quality judgment, some people would be content to remain tribal and lead a simple life.
Not judging anyone either, the European thought being a greedy, self-absorbed, selfish, dog -eat-dog philosophy was preferable to a way of life that tought actually caring for the sick, the infirm, the elderly, and the young before yourself was bad.

My Grandfather recalls a story by his grandfather, that for the European, there was never enough, he'd always want more, that his greed would be a hole that could never be filled. I'm not making a quality of life judgement, some people can never be content, and be willing to step on their young to lead a life that is never enough.
Competition for resources and females is an instinct that is older than the human race. Baboons and many other primates live in societies dominated by these principles. It is not hard to see the survival value such rules of organization have for the gorilla and why our ancestors several million years ago took them along when the involved into the present homo sapiens. In that process, those basic rules were rather significantly modified as the environment changed rather radically and the evolving human species began to require more and more development time before a newborn was able to function as an adult. That required time, BTW has nearly doubled in the past couple of centuries as well.

Not all Americans are followers of this new-fangled evolution claptrap. For those who want to stick to the good old monkey ways, there is always the Republican Party and the state of Texas.
Do not feed the traitor trolls
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Tsalagi
Aug 9 2018, 10:19 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:14 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:06 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 09:58 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 09:54 AM
Nothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
Just because my garden produces ten times as much as my neighbors doesn't mean I'm to blame if he goes hungry. The left's answer would be to punish me by taking most of what I grow, eliminating the incentive to grow more. The rights answer is to teach my neighbor how to garden.

The same problem, two different solutions.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us.
The main problem with socialism is the socialists. Socialists don't know when to stop, the power to tax, redistribute and control is like crack to a crack addict. There is no such thing as recreational socialism, given time it always produces massive economic failure, poverty and government dependence. Socialism fails because it works counter to human nature. The worst socialist failures have tried, through brutal tactics, to reengineer human nature. We are a self serving species, we don't work for the good of the group, we work to serve our own self interests. Capitalism works because the sum total of everyone working in their own best interest is a productive and free society.
My people work for the benefit of the Tribe, worked for us for over 14,000 years on this continent, we didn't know our way of life was bad til the Europeans got here and told us we had to change to their way of thinking.
That explains the casinos....
Leftism has a historical track record unblemished by success....
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_g R_
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Aug 12 2018, 11:15 PM
Tsalagi
Aug 9 2018, 10:19 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 10:14 AM
_g R_
Aug 9 2018, 10:06 AM
PATruth
Aug 9 2018, 09:58 AM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deepNothing new. You guys have been dismantling the New Deal since it began--finally rewriting the tax codes in the 80's, repealing Glass Steagall and in the 90's and we all know the rest. The richest 1 tenth of 1 percent of Americans now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

FDR created the New Deal at the time because the anger of the mass of people about the depression made them move generally in the left direction rather than the right direction. What FDR didn't do was realize that in order to make that solution he moved towards permanent, you can't leave the power - the decision-making power - of this economy in the same old hands of private enterprise. He didn't take that last step so here we are with the greatest wealth inequality since the Egyptian pharaohs ruled.
The poor are afraid of no future and you're afraid they'll take yours.
Both are blaming each other and missing the solution which is always in some form of compromise. There's absolutely no reason that capitalism and socialism can't thrive side by side in a working democracy, which was taken from us.
The main problem with socialism is the socialists. Socialists don't know when to stop, the power to tax, redistribute and control is like crack to a crack addict. There is no such thing as recreational socialism, given time it always produces massive economic failure, poverty and government dependence. Socialism fails because it works counter to human nature. The worst socialist failures have tried, through brutal tactics, to reengineer human nature. We are a self serving species, we don't work for the good of the group, we work to serve our own self interests. Capitalism works because the sum total of everyone working in their own best interest is a productive and free society.
My people work for the benefit of the Tribe, worked for us for over 14,000 years on this continent, we didn't know our way of life was bad til the Europeans got here and told us we had to change to their way of thinking.
That explains the casinos....
The USA has become the cancer of this planet.
We're all just a part of it-- tiny molecules floating in a spreading cesspool of disease on our way to extermination.

That's my happy thought for today anyway.
Edited by _g R_, Aug 13 2018, 12:06 PM.
We are the 99 %
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