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Government does not equal society
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Topic Started: Apr 6 2016, 10:02 PM (1,971 Views)
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estonianman
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Apr 7 2016, 01:03 AM
Post #21
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- BuckFan
- Apr 7 2016, 01:00 AM
- estonianman
- Apr 7 2016, 12:56 AM
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So education should only be for those who can afford it? The rest are condemned to a life of poverty because that is what no education provides.
This is false. The market has made necessities like food in such abundance that anyone can afford it. In fact since education has become a government priority, it has become unaffordable. - Quote:
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You can move out of the country. It may not be as easily geographically as leaving a state but then it is unlikely that you will find a state that provides your utopia. I am surprised you will accept government at the state level but not at the federal level since, after all, it is still government.
Choices.
What world do you live in. Not everyone can afford food. There is starvation across the globe including within the U.S. You are correct that if you have wealth you do not starve. Not so true for those without wealth. I live in a world where capitalism has elevated the standard of living for millions, even those that were all about statism.
Where are people starving? are you sure a local government isn't restricting the market?
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MEEK AND MILD
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BuckFan
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Apr 7 2016, 01:10 AM
Post #22
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- estonianman
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- estonianman
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Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
What world do you live in. Not everyone can afford food. There is starvation across the globe including within the U.S. You are correct that if you have wealth you do not starve. Not so true for those without wealth.
I live in a world where capitalism has elevated the standard of living for millions, even those that were all about statism. Where are people starving? are you sure a local government isn't restricting the market? Capitalism has not elevate the standard of living, socialist influence on capitalism has. America did not become widely "elevated" until the labor and progressive movement of the late 1800's and early 1900's. Those movement pushed millions from poverty to middle class live styles. Before the country was marked by mostly poor with relatively few extremely wealthy.
Where are people starving? Everywhere ... cities, countryside, deserts. The better question is where are people not starving and it is not because government is restricting the market. It is more likely that government is alleviating the situation or it would be worse.
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estonianman
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Apr 7 2016, 01:14 AM
Post #23
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Capitalism has not elevate the standard of living, socialist influence on capitalism has. America did not become widely "elevated" until the labor and progressive movement of the late 1800's and early 1900's. Those movement pushed millions from poverty to middle class live styles. Before the country was marked by mostly poor with relatively few extremely wealthy.
Wow. Do you seriously believe this?
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Where are people starving? Everywhere ... cities, countryside, deserts. The better question is where are people not starving and it is not because government is restricting the market. It is more likely that government is alleviating the situation or it would be worse.
"there are no "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know."
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MEEK AND MILD
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Robert Stout
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Apr 7 2016, 02:50 AM
Post #24
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I grew up in in a totalitarian socialist society (U.S. military)...It was a pleasant experience...Of course no one starved because the taxpayers paid for all of it...Problems may occur in a socialist country if the taxpayers don't have the ability to pay for all of it.............
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Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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Opinionated
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Apr 7 2016, 07:08 AM
Post #25
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- estonianman
- Apr 6 2016, 11:53 PM
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- Tsalagi
- Apr 6 2016, 11:09 PM
Just trying to nail down specifically how your system deals with these problems.
The answer is, it doesn't. Libertarians don't care what men do to each other, just so long as there isn't a government involved. It's hard to get them to admit that, however.
Not true. Although I expected that desperate strawman from you. Then by all means, share with us the details of how that is not true. How does libertarianism deal with slavery?
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estonianman
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Apr 7 2016, 08:51 AM
Post #26
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Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Not true. Although I expected that desperate strawman from you.
Then by all means, share with us the details of how that is not true. How does libertarianism deal with slavery? By not endorsing it like government does.
I mean - if there were no state police, what is stopping me from murdering everyone I come in contact with?
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MEEK AND MILD
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Tsalagi
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Apr 7 2016, 09:06 AM
Post #27
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Then by all means, share with us the details of how that is not true. How does libertarianism deal with slavery?
By not endorsing it like government does. I mean - if there were no state police, what is stopping me from murdering everyone I come in contact with? Ok, you don't endorse, but are you prepared to stop it, or does your philosophy state "as long as it doesn't affect me, it;s not my problem"
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estonianman
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Apr 7 2016, 09:18 AM
Post #28
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- Tsalagi
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- estonianman
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By not endorsing it like government does. I mean - if there were no state police, what is stopping me from murdering everyone I come in contact with?
Ok, you don't endorse, but are you prepared to stop it, or does your philosophy state "as long as it doesn't affect me, it;s not my problem" Well I am prepared to stop the government income tax, which is removed by threat of force under a unilateral "contract".
Dat some slavery right there.
I am also a bit petrubed at the government throwing people into cages, especially for non-violent crimes. I heard they dig ditches along the highway for the state.
Dat some slavery right there.
An argument can be made that the government supports systematic slavery for black, but instead of locking them in plantations they are pushed into ghettos and kept on EBT life support. Why? to continue voting for corrupt politicians.
Dat some slavery right there.
I own my home, yet could have it taken from me anytime for not paying property tax.
Dat some slavery right there.
The certain irony is that capitalism appeared roughly around the end of slavery...and was restarted around the time the income tax was established.
I am against all these things - so in a way I am already doing my part to end the slavery in the world. So I guess a good question for you and others that support this fallacy, what are you doing to prevent slavery in a statist society?
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MEEK AND MILD
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Tsalagi
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Apr 7 2016, 09:31 AM
Post #29
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- estonianman
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- Tsalagi
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Ok, you don't endorse, but are you prepared to stop it, or does your philosophy state "as long as it doesn't affect me, it;s not my problem"
Well I am prepared to stop the government income tax, which is removed by threat of force under a unilateral "contract". Dat some slavery right there. I am also a bit petrubed at the government throwing people into cages, especially for non-violent crimes. I heard they dig ditches along the highway for the state. Dat some slavery right there. An argument can be made that the government supports systematic slavery for black, but instead of locking them in plantations they are pushed into ghettos and kept on EBT life support. Why? to continue voting for corrupt politicians. Dat some slavery right there. I own my home, yet could have it taken from me anytime for not paying property tax. Dat some slavery right there. The certain irony is that capitalism appeared roughly around the end of slavery...and was restarted around the time the income tax was established. I am against all these things - so in a way I am already doing my part to end the slavery in the world. So I guess a good question for you and others that support this fallacy, what are you doing to prevent slavery in a statist society? Somehow I would think a slave chained up o a pole outside a slave shack would not equate the version with his state with the circumstances you state. So with your distractions, does your philosophy indicate you would be prepared to end the system of slavery. My paying taxes goes up, goes down, and I get a refund every year, more or less, I'm also pretty sure I've never stood up on a platform and sold to the highest bidder so I can pick his cotton.
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estonianman
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Apr 7 2016, 09:35 AM
Post #30
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- Tsalagi
- Apr 7 2016, 09:31 AM
- estonianman
- Apr 7 2016, 09:18 AM
- Tsalagi
- Apr 7 2016, 09:06 AM
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Well I am prepared to stop the government income tax, which is removed by threat of force under a unilateral "contract". Dat some slavery right there. I am also a bit petrubed at the government throwing people into cages, especially for non-violent crimes. I heard they dig ditches along the highway for the state. Dat some slavery right there. An argument can be made that the government supports systematic slavery for black, but instead of locking them in plantations they are pushed into ghettos and kept on EBT life support. Why? to continue voting for corrupt politicians. Dat some slavery right there. I own my home, yet could have it taken from me anytime for not paying property tax. Dat some slavery right there. The certain irony is that capitalism appeared roughly around the end of slavery...and was restarted around the time the income tax was established. I am against all these things - so in a way I am already doing my part to end the slavery in the world. So I guess a good question for you and others that support this fallacy, what are you doing to prevent slavery in a statist society?
Somehow I would think a slave chained up o a pole outside a slave shack would not equate the version with his state with the circumstances you state. So with your distractions, does your philosophy indicate you would be prepared to end the system of slavery. My paying taxes goes up, goes down, and I get a refund every year, more or less, I'm also pretty sure I've never stood up on a platform and sold to the highest bidder so I can pick his cotton. So what you are saying is you are willing to tolerate some slavery, as long as it benefits the common good.
So again - how are you going to prevent slavery in a statist society?
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MEEK AND MILD
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Tsalagi
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Apr 7 2016, 09:40 AM
Post #31
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- estonianman
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- Tsalagi
- Apr 7 2016, 09:31 AM
- estonianman
- Apr 7 2016, 09:18 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepwhat are you doing to prevent slavery in a statist society?
Somehow I would think a slave chained up o a pole outside a slave shack would not equate the version with his state with the circumstances you state. So with your distractions, does your philosophy indicate you would be prepared to end the system of slavery. My paying taxes goes up, goes down, and I get a refund every year, more or less, I'm also pretty sure I've never stood up on a platform and sold to the highest bidder so I can pick his cotton.
So what you are saying is you are willing to tolerate some slavery, as long as it benefits the common good. So again - how are you going to prevent slavery in a statist society? There is no slavery in the society it currently live in. Simply put I do not, never have, and never will regard taxation as equal to the vile practice of slavery, which is why I will always put your philosophy as simply good for academic study.
Edited by Tsalagi, Apr 7 2016, 09:41 AM.
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Tsalagi
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Apr 7 2016, 09:42 AM
Post #32
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Your belief structure can only work in a society governed by the Rule of Law supported by a government derived from the consent of the people. There are no "truly independent" societies outside of gangs and Somali pirates that act in accordance with this version of freedom you stipulate to.
We've been over this, you can't name one Nation-State that works in the manner you hope it does. There might be a city where everything is privatized, but that city would not function without external support from the State.
Edited by Tsalagi, Apr 7 2016, 09:43 AM.
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estonianman
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Apr 7 2016, 09:42 AM
Post #33
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- Tsalagi
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- Tsalagi
- Apr 7 2016, 09:31 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepwhat are you doing to prevent slavery in a statist society?
So what you are saying is you are willing to tolerate some slavery, as long as it benefits the common good. So again - how are you going to prevent slavery in a statist society?
There is no slavery in the society it currently live in. Simply put I do not, never have, and never will regard taxation as equal to the vile practice of slavery, which is why I will always put your philosophy as simply good for academic study. Just because you change the definition of slavery to dodge the question, doesn't mean it ceases to exist.
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MEEK AND MILD
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estonianman
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Apr 7 2016, 09:46 AM
Post #34
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Funny how suddenly my adversity to government slavery has become a "belief system".
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MEEK AND MILD
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estonianman
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Apr 7 2016, 09:48 AM
Post #35
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Your belief structure can only work in a society governed by the Rule of Law supported by a government derived from the consent of the people. There are no "truly independent" societies outside of gangs and Somali pirates that act in accordance with this version of freedom you stipulate to.
We've been over this, you can't name one Nation-State that works in the manner you hope it does. There might be a city where everything is privatized, but that city would not function without external support from the State. Somalia is a collapsed socialist state.
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We've been over this, you can't name one Nation-State that works in the manner you hope it does. There might be a city where everything is privatized, but that city would not function without external support from the State.
and every time I have shot this question down as a fallacy. government is a anti-thesis to the marketplace and libertarian concepts.
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MEEK AND MILD
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Opinionated
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Apr 7 2016, 09:57 AM
Post #36
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- Tsalagi
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Your belief structure can only work in a society governed by the Rule of Law supported by a government derived from the consent of the people. There are no "truly independent" societies outside of gangs and Somali pirates that act in accordance with this version of freedom you stipulate to.
We've been over this, you can't name one Nation-State that works in the manner you hope it does. There might be a city where everything is privatized, but that city would not function without external support from the State. See what I mean? He talks endlessly about ending "government slavery", but won't really address how his system would address actual slavery.
Why is that? Because it wouldn't.
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Tsalagi
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Apr 7 2016, 09:58 AM
Post #37
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- estonianman
- Apr 7 2016, 09:42 AM
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- estonianman
- Apr 7 2016, 09:35 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deepwhat are you doing to prevent slavery in a statist society?
There is no slavery in the society it currently live in. Simply put I do not, never have, and never will regard taxation as equal to the vile practice of slavery, which is why I will always put your philosophy as simply good for academic study.
Just because you change the definition of slavery to dodge the question, doesn't mean it ceases to exist. The definition wasn't changed by me, nor over the last few millenia, that would be you and your ilk who has done so.
I repeat, there is no society that can call libertarianism as it's governing authority. None, zippo,nada. Therefore, I am safe in saying that your system can not function without an infrastructure provided by...wait for it....a statist society.
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CautionaryTales
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Apr 7 2016, 10:07 AM
Post #38
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Libertarianism can only be a component of a governing system. Just like all of the isms.
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Have you paid your internet taxes?
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estonianman
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Apr 7 2016, 01:00 PM
Post #39
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Your belief structure can only work in a society governed by the Rule of Law supported by a government derived from the consent of the people. There are no "truly independent" societies outside of gangs and Somali pirates that act in accordance with this version of freedom you stipulate to.
We've been over this, you can't name one Nation-State that works in the manner you hope it does. There might be a city where everything is privatized, but that city would not function without external support from the State.
See what I mean? He talks endlessly about ending "government slavery", but won't really address how his system would address actual slavery. Why is that? Because it wouldn't. We address it by not endorsing it
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MEEK AND MILD
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Tsalagi
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Apr 7 2016, 01:23 PM
Post #40
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- estonianman
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- Tsalagi
- Apr 7 2016, 09:42 AM
Your belief structure can only work in a society governed by the Rule of Law supported by a government derived from the consent of the people. There are no "truly independent" societies outside of gangs and Somali pirates that act in accordance with this version of freedom you stipulate to.
We've been over this, you can't name one Nation-State that works in the manner you hope it does. There might be a city where everything is privatized, but that city would not function without external support from the State.
See what I mean? He talks endlessly about ending "government slavery", but won't really address how his system would address actual slavery. Why is that? Because it wouldn't.
We address it by not endorsing it Yeah because that'll make slave owners free their slaves. Your system sure would show them
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