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Gay pastor suing Whole Foods after finding homophobic slur on cake order
Topic Started: Apr 19 2016, 10:58 AM (2,715 Views)
CautionaryTales
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People have freedom of religion. It lasts tight up until it crosses the line of imposing on freedoms that other people equally have.
The line that gets crossed is changed every moment. Dance close to the line and you risk crossing that line and whatever the consequences of that action will come your way.

That's how it works with every "freedom" that exists. There isn't any absolute freedom. It's alway open to critique as to whether it is beyond the boundaries of acceptability.



Have you paid your internet taxes?
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Opinionated
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jake58
May 17 2016, 01:53 PM
Opinionated
May 17 2016, 01:39 PM
jake58
May 17 2016, 12:21 PM

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How about, not providing the service period? If you can't bake wedding cakes for every paying customer who comes through the door without your religion becoming an issue, then don't bake wedding cakes. It's just that freaking simple.
The reason immigrants first came here was freedom of religion. I know that's a bit of a problem for you with your hard on for Xianity but there you go. Freedom to do or not do was enshrined early on. Your protected class bs has been a recent invention and at some point will go the way of the dodo... probably be a sad day for you. If the govt is going to mandate this sort of behavior, there will be work arounds as there always are. Suck it buttercup, the baker's in the hospital and couldn't make your cake celebrating your new gender identity.
There were in fact many reasons why European immigrants came to the North American continent. One was so that they could build their own societies and force their religion on everyone within that society. We like to call this "religious freedom" today, but the reality is that most of the original colonies that were built around religious observance, and there were many of them, didn't believe in "live and let live" when it comes to religion, they believed in "believe as we believe, or be driven from our town/colony".

It seems that many conservatives adhere to the same general concept.

You are not free to practice your religion any way you wish. If your religion believes in human sacrifice, you don't get to do that. If your religion believes that other people's possessions are yours for the taking, you don't get to do that. If you believe your religion requires you to walk down main street naked, you don't get to do that. If your religion requires you to urinate on women who show their bare midriffs, you don't get to do that.

And in some states, if your religion requires you to refuse to sell wedding cakes to homosexuals, but you have no problem selling them to heterosexuals, you don't get to do that.

Get used to the fact that having a religion is not a get out of jail free card for whatever in the hell you want to do.
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Mr. Tik
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Two a.m.
May 17 2016, 12:30 PM
jake58
May 17 2016, 12:21 PM
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May 17 2016, 10:47 AM

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In other words, don't provide the service but simply don't tell the truth about the reason why. This is what the govt forces us now to do. It's asinine.

And it is getting dumber every day. Now you've got the President of the United States and the state legislature of North Carolina fighting over who can tell who where to take a leak.

I always thought I'd be glad to see the day when gays could marry. It would be a vast expansion of personal freedom, I thought.

Instead, it has heralded an exciting new era of repression. It's just a different group getting repressed.
I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater here.
Gay Marriage is a positive step forward in general.
Unfortunately, it is often human nature to use past injustices as a justification to be assholes.
In "Mans search for meaning", Holocaust survivor Victor Frankl observed that after being liberated from the death camps, many of his fellow Jews used their experience
as an excuse to behave poorly towards others.
You may be a conservative republican..if you are pro life until you get your mistress knocked up
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Demagogue
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May 17 2016, 10:47 AM
Demagogue
May 17 2016, 10:16 AM
Opinionated
May 17 2016, 09:56 AM

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We will have to agree to disagree.

I can even understand someone choosing not to do business with folks who feel that way if they feel strongly about the issue as you do. What I don't understand is persecuting someone for their religious beliefs and attempting to force them out of business with outrageous fines.

Seems like an over the top reaction to someone telling you that for religious reasons they can't perform a service at your wedding.
Having religious beliefs is not a "get out of responsibility free" card that some seem to think it is. If as business owner your religious beliefs restrict you in certain ways with certain types of customers, you have choices. You can stop doing business, that's a choice you are free to make. You can stop providing the service in question, also a choice you're free to make. Or you can have someone else in your employ provide the service just as it would be provided to anyone else.


It doesn't matter if you word your refusal politely and really, really believe it's what God wants you to do.

Fortunately your position is only true in the most left leaning least religion friendly states.

On the bright side, there is possibly an out even in those states. Instead of calling your business a public business you set it up as a private club that requires membership. Then you can refuse service to anyone for any reason. :cheers:
Edited by Demagogue, May 17 2016, 02:20 PM.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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Robertr2000
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Why is "GOP" offensive?
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
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jake58

Opinionated
May 17 2016, 02:09 PM
jake58
May 17 2016, 01:53 PM
Opinionated
May 17 2016, 01:39 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The reason immigrants first came here was freedom of religion. I know that's a bit of a problem for you with your hard on for Xianity but there you go. Freedom to do or not do was enshrined early on. Your protected class bs has been a recent invention and at some point will go the way of the dodo... probably be a sad day for you. If the govt is going to mandate this sort of behavior, there will be work arounds as there always are. Suck it buttercup, the baker's in the hospital and couldn't make your cake celebrating your new gender identity.
There were in fact many reasons why European immigrants came to the North American continent. One was so that they could build their own societies and force their religion on everyone within that society. We like to call this "religious freedom" today, but the reality is that most of the original colonies that were built around religious observance, and there were many of them, didn't believe in "live and let live" when it comes to religion, they believed in "believe as we believe, or be driven from our town/colony".

It seems that many conservatives adhere to the same general concept.

You are not free to practice your religion any way you wish. If your religion believes in human sacrifice, you don't get to do that. If your religion believes that other people's possessions are yours for the taking, you don't get to do that. If you believe your religion requires you to walk down main street naked, you don't get to do that. If your religion requires you to urinate on women who show their bare midriffs, you don't get to do that.




And in some states, if your religion requires you to refuse to sell wedding cakes to homosexuals, but you have no problem selling them to heterosexuals, you don't get to do that.

Get used to the fact that having a religion is not a get out of jail free card for whatever in the hell you want to do.
There were in fact many reasons why European immigrants came to the North American continent. One was so that they could build their own societies and force their religion on everyone within that society. We like to call this "religious freedom" today, but the reality is that most of the original colonies that were built around religious observance, and there were many of them, didn't believe in "live and let live" when it comes to religion, they believed in "believe as we believe, or be driven from our town/colony".
The reason that the FIRST immigrants came here was to freely practice their religion, which they were unable to do in any part of their homeland and suffered persecutions for it. Others who came to the US and didn't want to be involved with that religion were free to go to any other part of the nearly 4 million square miles of the US to practice or not practice their religion or nonreligion. They didn't need someone like you telling them they should live with people who didn't believe what they believed, which would have been pretty uncomfortable in those days.

You are not free to practice your religion any way you wish. If your religion believes in human sacrifice, you don't get to do that. If your religion believes that other people's possessions are yours for the taking, you don't get to do that. If you believe your religion requires you to walk down main street naked, you don't get to do that. If your religion requires you to urinate on women who show their bare midriffs, you don't get to do that.

Oh look, a handy list of straw men, indicative of nothing.

And in some states, if your religion requires you to refuse to sell wedding cakes to homosexuals, but you have no problem selling them to heterosexuals, you don't get to do that.

Sure you do, you just say that you're already baking 10 cakes that day and that's your limit. Your attempt to force people to do things that they don't want to do goes for nought. And we wonder why people lie so easily... it's mandated when dealing with the govt.
That which can be asserted without evidence; can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchens
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Two a.m.
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Adolph Hipster
May 17 2016, 02:19 PM
Two a.m.
May 17 2016, 12:30 PM
jake58
May 17 2016, 12:21 PM

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And it is getting dumber every day. Now you've got the President of the United States and the state legislature of North Carolina fighting over who can tell who where to take a leak.

I always thought I'd be glad to see the day when gays could marry. It would be a vast expansion of personal freedom, I thought.

Instead, it has heralded an exciting new era of repression. It's just a different group getting repressed.
I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater here.
Gay Marriage is a positive step forward in general.
Unfortunately, it is often human nature to use past injustices as a justification to be assholes.
In "Mans search for meaning", Holocaust survivor Victor Frankl observed that after being liberated from the death camps, many of his fellow Jews used their experience
as an excuse to behave poorly towards others.
Yeah, I still favor marriage equality. Always have.

I just wish that people would learn that individual freedom is for everyone, not a personal commodity to be won by some groups and taken away from others.
"The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them." - George Orwell, 1984
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Coast2coast

Demagogue
May 17 2016, 09:15 AM
Coast2coast
May 17 2016, 12:22 AM
Demagogue
May 16 2016, 05:16 PM

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You do know that this "religious reasons" bit is a total scam.




Not to people who are actually religious and truly believe.
No. Its a scam.

The use of their religion to selectively targets homosexuality is what is going on here. They hug the Bible and their beliefs that far and no further. Eat shellfish - heck serving it at the wedding, no problem. Divorced, no problem. Gay? Oh, that's a problem.

If one uses their religion to deny a person a service but targets it so specifically then its not a religious stand, its a personal one. Its a prejudice on display and not a religious belief. Worse than that it places the blame on God. "It's not me, its God."

Its a scam.






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Coast2coast

Two a.m.
May 17 2016, 12:30 PM
jake58
May 17 2016, 12:21 PM
Opinionated
May 17 2016, 10:47 AM

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In other words, don't provide the service but simply don't tell the truth about the reason why. This is what the govt forces us now to do. It's asinine.

And it is getting dumber every day. Now you've got the President of the United States and the state legislature of North Carolina fighting over who can tell who where to take a leak.

I always thought I'd be glad to see the day when gays could marry. It would be a vast expansion of personal freedom, I thought.

Instead, it has heralded an exciting new era of repression. It's just a different group getting repressed.
An era of growth is not an era of repression.
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Demagogue
May 17 2016, 02:20 PM
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May 17 2016, 10:47 AM
Demagogue
May 17 2016, 10:16 AM

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Having religious beliefs is not a "get out of responsibility free" card that some seem to think it is. If as business owner your religious beliefs restrict you in certain ways with certain types of customers, you have choices. You can stop doing business, that's a choice you are free to make. You can stop providing the service in question, also a choice you're free to make. Or you can have someone else in your employ provide the service just as it would be provided to anyone else.


It doesn't matter if you word your refusal politely and really, really believe it's what God wants you to do.

Fortunately your position is only true in the most left leaning least religion friendly states.

On the bright side, there is possibly an out even in those states. Instead of calling your business a public business you set it up as a private club that requires membership. Then you can refuse service to anyone for any reason. :cheers:
If it's not a "public accommodation" then you can be as much of a bigot as you want.
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Dem4life

If a religious person wants to discriminate against someone else b/c of their religious beliefs, they should be forced to prove God exists first...
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Two a.m.
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Coast2coast
May 17 2016, 03:36 PM
Two a.m.
May 17 2016, 12:30 PM
jake58
May 17 2016, 12:21 PM

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And it is getting dumber every day. Now you've got the President of the United States and the state legislature of North Carolina fighting over who can tell who where to take a leak.

I always thought I'd be glad to see the day when gays could marry. It would be a vast expansion of personal freedom, I thought.

Instead, it has heralded an exciting new era of repression. It's just a different group getting repressed.
An era of growth is not an era of repression.

But growth of what exactly?

Certainly not religious liberty or personal freedom - at least not for certain people with dissenting views. And if we don't stand up for the dissenters, we don't really have rights or freedoms at all. We merely have temporary allowances granted by social mores which can be revoked at any time.

I'm glad gays can marry. It is a long overdue advance which I favored for years. But my joy has been tempered by the rise of a regressive and disturbing progressivism that wishes to employ state power to assert itself intrusively and unnecessarily into the personal lives and habits of people for whom it has no justifiable public policy reason for bothering.
"The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them." - George Orwell, 1984
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Demagogue
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May 17 2016, 03:46 PM
Demagogue
May 17 2016, 02:20 PM
Opinionated
May 17 2016, 10:47 AM

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Fortunately your position is only true in the most left leaning least religion friendly states.

On the bright side, there is possibly an out even in those states. Instead of calling your business a public business you set it up as a private club that requires membership. Then you can refuse service to anyone for any reason. :cheers:
If it's not a "public accommodation" then you can be as much of a bigot as you want.
Technically places like Sams Club and Costco are private clubs.

So in the end, even if we are completely idiotic and allow the persecution of religious people at least they do have some path still open to them eh?
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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clone
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Director @ Center for Advanced Memetic Warfare
My business, my customers....you don't like it ...go somewhere else....
Only liberals can choose not to go down the road to widespread, systematic violence.
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Demagogue
May 17 2016, 04:28 PM
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May 17 2016, 03:46 PM
Demagogue
May 17 2016, 02:20 PM

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If it's not a "public accommodation" then you can be as much of a bigot as you want.
Technically places like Sams Club and Costco are private clubs.

So in the end, even if we are completely idiotic and allow the persecution of religious people at least they do have some path still open to them eh?
If you can't play by the rules of commerce, then by all means set yourself up your own little private club where you can discriminate all you want.

The rest of us are going to be civilized and not refuse to provide service to people based on highly debatable religious interpretations and who aren't harming us in the least.
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Robert Stout
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You should see what the homosexual bakery did to the cake I ordered !!! I think I will sue.............. :wah:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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Freaks
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Demagogue
May 17 2016, 09:15 AM
Coast2coast
May 17 2016, 12:22 AM
Demagogue
May 16 2016, 05:16 PM

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You do know that this "religious reasons" bit is a total scam.




Not to people who are actually religious and truly believe.
Sometimes I hear the argument that the atheist is smug, they smile and think they know better during an argument. It's the same damn thing religious folks do too though. :dunno:
"I'll be the fella to save his Cinderella,
by turnin' her dream world into real life."
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Freaks
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Robert Stout
May 17 2016, 05:49 PM
You should see what the homosexual bakery did to the cake I ordered !!! I think I will sue.............. :wah:
You did ask for their special homemade glaze, you should have known better.
"I'll be the fella to save his Cinderella,
by turnin' her dream world into real life."
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Robert Stout
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Freaks1932
May 17 2016, 06:24 PM
Robert Stout
May 17 2016, 05:49 PM
You should see what the homosexual bakery did to the cake I ordered !!! I think I will sue.............. :wah:
You did ask for their special homemade glaze, you should have known better.
DNA testing will determine exactly who did it............. :biggrin:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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Robertr2000
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"Gay Pastor Apologizes After Accusing Whole Foods of Writing Slur on Chocolate Cake"

Go look it up yourselves.



"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
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