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Without government, how will 90% of the populace smoke weed all night and sleep all day?
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Topic Started: Apr 21 2016, 09:41 PM (3,573 Views)
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estonianman
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Apr 25 2016, 10:54 PM
Post #121
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- Apr 25 2016, 10:33 PM
- estonianman
- Apr 25 2016, 10:29 PM
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- Apr 25 2016, 10:12 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
I guess the only way is to get a daily ration from government - just like in 1984. What could go wrong?
I'm open to your "market" solution. What do you suggest? I am not even sure its a problem yet.
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MEEK AND MILD
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Mr. Tik
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Apr 25 2016, 11:37 PM
Post #122
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- estonianman
- Apr 25 2016, 10:29 PM
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- Adolph Hipster
- Apr 25 2016, 02:07 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
Right, once all those humans no longer have a steady income because their jobs are being performed by robots, who buys the goods and services those robots will be providing? The 10% or 20% of the population that's still gainfully employed? How's that going to work?
I guess the only way is to get a daily ration from government - just like in 1984. What could go wrong? This is what i mean by you being slippery You offer that taxes and statism are evil nyah nyah and we should go to laizze fair capitalism.. However, when pressed about specifics, you are creative with ducking but not with any ideas as to how laizze fair capitalism would handle tasks that are usually in the realm of government.
One would think that you being so invested in an ideology, you would have some idea of how it would respond to certain challenges.
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You may be a conservative republican..if you are pro life until you get your mistress knocked up
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Mr. Tik
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Apr 25 2016, 11:38 PM
Post #123
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- estonianman
- Apr 25 2016, 10:54 PM
- Opinionated
- Apr 25 2016, 10:33 PM
- estonianman
- Apr 25 2016, 10:29 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
I'm open to your "market" solution. What do you suggest?
I am not even sure its a problem yet. If it became a problem..c'mon..dig into that free market paradigm and at least speculate.
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You may be a conservative republican..if you are pro life until you get your mistress knocked up
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estonianman
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Apr 26 2016, 12:23 AM
Post #124
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- Adolph Hipster
- Apr 25 2016, 11:38 PM
- estonianman
- Apr 25 2016, 10:54 PM
- Opinionated
- Apr 25 2016, 10:33 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
I am not even sure its a problem yet.
If it became a problem..c'mon..dig into that free market paradigm and at least speculate. This deserves a much longer post then I am going to write tonight - but I'll chime in my two cents with more later.
- The first major disruption to the job market with automation will be to transportation - but that is still a ways away. The regulatory burdens will hold this back a decade or more. By then I feel that education and skill training will have restructured itself enough to cope. More on this in the next bullet
- Education and training is the core of the matter. The bricks and mortar schools need to go away. I am not talking about just college - but the entire paradigm. 18 years before a person is ready to work at starbucks is way too long. You know that I am against a government solution here - but in this case it is because a monopoly is resistant to change. The unions will also fight tooth and nail to keep the old way around as well.
- Its hard to outline a market solution because I cannot calculate (or even speculate) the productivity gains made by automation. At the same time we are making productivity gains with other technology like factory grown meat, vertical farming, aquaculture, localized energy production, modular housing - with all kinds of material advancements.
- Other then the moral fallacy of welfare - I am actually not against a universal basic income. This assumes that it will replace all the other forms of welfare - which means the bureaucracies supporting it will have to go away. Economically - it will never be enough however, as the market will price UBI into the equation.
- Although I disagree that it is productive for OP to finally play the guitar for disabled kids, now that UBI is in place - I do think that new parts of the earth will open up for productivity, which will lead to all kinds of employment. This will be part of the gradual move towards decentralization - where towns, cities, colonies will be able to to easily deploy energy production, food production (techs listed above) all produced locally. This means that you will have viable population centers in the middle of nowhere - in the Yukon, Siberia - Oceania. Urbanization is coming to an end in many places.
My thoughts - take it or leave it. Not really an answer I know - but there are too many factors at play to say the sky is falling yet.
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MEEK AND MILD
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ringotuna
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Apr 26 2016, 05:44 AM
Post #125
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- Adolph Hipster
- Apr 25 2016, 02:07 PM
- ringotuna
- Apr 24 2016, 06:02 AM
What I find interesting about this Altman fella is that although his fortunes (in the billions) are accumulated by means of exploiting capitalism, he's selling this utopian nanny state and people are buying it as a means of increasing productivity.
"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
Here is a question Lets say the robotic/AI thing takes off and makes more and more jobs obsolete What is the markets plans for all the surplus humans? Global Zombie Apocalypse?
If I could predict what the market would do, I'd be investing heavily in the solution.
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Ringoism: Never underestimate the advantages of being underestimated.
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ringotuna
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Apr 26 2016, 07:40 AM
Post #126
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Life would be a bowl of cherries...if only someone would give me a bowl and some cherries.
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Ringoism: Never underestimate the advantages of being underestimated.
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estonianman
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Apr 26 2016, 08:55 AM
Post #127
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- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 05:44 AM
- Adolph Hipster
- Apr 25 2016, 02:07 PM
- ringotuna
- Apr 24 2016, 06:02 AM
What I find interesting about this Altman fella is that although his fortunes (in the billions) are accumulated by means of exploiting capitalism, he's selling this utopian nanny state and people are buying it as a means of increasing productivity.
"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
Here is a question Lets say the robotic/AI thing takes off and makes more and more jobs obsolete What is the markets plans for all the surplus humans?
Global Zombie Apocalypse? If I could predict what the market would do, I'd be investing heavily in the solution. This is absolutely correct.
The market probably won't tolerate hordes of unemployed. If anything automation will bring all kinds of manufacturers back to the United States.
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MEEK AND MILD
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Opinionated
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Apr 26 2016, 11:40 AM
Post #128
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- estonianman
- Apr 26 2016, 08:55 AM
- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 05:44 AM
- Adolph Hipster
- Apr 25 2016, 02:07 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
Global Zombie Apocalypse? If I could predict what the market would do, I'd be investing heavily in the solution.
This is absolutely correct. The market probably won't tolerate hordes of unemployed. If anything automation will bring all kinds of manufacturers back to the United States. Well, the market had better figure out a way to employ them then...
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estonianman
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Apr 26 2016, 11:42 AM
Post #129
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- Opinionated
- Apr 26 2016, 11:40 AM
- estonianman
- Apr 26 2016, 08:55 AM
- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 05:44 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
This is absolutely correct. The market probably won't tolerate hordes of unemployed. If anything automation will bring all kinds of manufacturers back to the United States.
Well, the market had better figure out a way to employ them then... That's where you have it ass backwards. The market doesn't owe you or anyone anything.
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MEEK AND MILD
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Opinionated
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Apr 26 2016, 01:29 PM
Post #130
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- estonianman
- Apr 26 2016, 11:42 AM
- Opinionated
- Apr 26 2016, 11:40 AM
- estonianman
- Apr 26 2016, 08:55 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
Well, the market had better figure out a way to employ them then...
That's where you have it ass backwards. The market doesn't owe you or anyone anything. If the market "won't tolerate hordes of unemployed" then the market had either a) figure out a way to employ them or b) get used to tolerating hordes of unemployed. Because guess what bucko? Human beings not going away just because the "market" finds us intolerable because we're unemployed.
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Mr. Tik
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Apr 26 2016, 02:02 PM
Post #131
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- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 05:44 AM
- Adolph Hipster
- Apr 25 2016, 02:07 PM
- ringotuna
- Apr 24 2016, 06:02 AM
What I find interesting about this Altman fella is that although his fortunes (in the billions) are accumulated by means of exploiting capitalism, he's selling this utopian nanny state and people are buying it as a means of increasing productivity.
"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
Here is a question Lets say the robotic/AI thing takes off and makes more and more jobs obsolete What is the markets plans for all the surplus humans?
Global Zombie Apocalypse? If I could predict what the market would do, I'd be investing heavily in the solution. In that case, you should look up Peter Schiff..using Austrian analysis, he can give you access to info that could make you rich when the dollar collapses
But hey..check this out
http://techcrunch.com/2016/04/25/the-driverless-truck-is-coming-and-its-going-to-automate-millions-of-jobs/
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You may be a conservative republican..if you are pro life until you get your mistress knocked up
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Mr. Tik
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Apr 26 2016, 02:04 PM
Post #132
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- estonianman
- Apr 26 2016, 12:23 AM
- Adolph Hipster
- Apr 25 2016, 11:38 PM
- estonianman
- Apr 25 2016, 10:54 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
If it became a problem..c'mon..dig into that free market paradigm and at least speculate.
This deserves a much longer post then I am going to write tonight - but I'll chime in my two cents with more later.
- The first major disruption to the job market with automation will be to transportation - but that is still a ways away. The regulatory burdens will hold this back a decade or more. By then I feel that education and skill training will have restructured itself enough to cope. More on this in the next bullet
- Education and training is the core of the matter. The bricks and mortar schools need to go away. I am not talking about just college - but the entire paradigm. 18 years before a person is ready to work at starbucks is way too long. You know that I am against a government solution here - but in this case it is because a monopoly is resistant to change. The unions will also fight tooth and nail to keep the old way around as well.
- Its hard to outline a market solution because I cannot calculate (or even speculate) the productivity gains made by automation. At the same time we are making productivity gains with other technology like factory grown meat, vertical farming, aquaculture, localized energy production, modular housing - with all kinds of material advancements.
- Other then the moral fallacy of welfare - I am actually not against a universal basic income. This assumes that it will replace all the other forms of welfare - which means the bureaucracies supporting it will have to go away. Economically - it will never be enough however, as the market will price UBI into the equation.
- Although I disagree that it is productive for OP to finally play the guitar for disabled kids, now that UBI is in place - I do think that new parts of the earth will open up for productivity, which will lead to all kinds of employment. This will be part of the gradual move towards decentralization - where towns, cities, colonies will be able to to easily deploy energy production, food production (techs listed above) all produced locally. This means that you will have viable population centers in the middle of nowhere - in the Yukon, Siberia - Oceania. Urbanization is coming to an end in many places.
My thoughts - take it or leave it. Not really an answer I know - but there are too many factors at play to say the sky is falling yet. I appreciate the effort. This is much better than your quippy talking points.
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You may be a conservative republican..if you are pro life until you get your mistress knocked up
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ringotuna
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Apr 26 2016, 04:07 PM
Post #133
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- Opinionated
- Apr 26 2016, 11:40 AM
- estonianman
- Apr 26 2016, 08:55 AM
- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 05:44 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
This is absolutely correct. The market probably won't tolerate hordes of unemployed. If anything automation will bring all kinds of manufacturers back to the United States.
Well, the market had better figure out a way to employ them then... LOL, it's your circus, you figure it out.
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Ringoism: Never underestimate the advantages of being underestimated.
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Opinionated
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Apr 26 2016, 04:19 PM
Post #134
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- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 04:07 PM
- Opinionated
- Apr 26 2016, 11:40 AM
- estonianman
- Apr 26 2016, 08:55 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
Well, the market had better figure out a way to employ them then...
LOL, it's your circus, you figure it out. It's hardly "my" circus. If it were, things would be far, far different.
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ringotuna
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Apr 26 2016, 05:10 PM
Post #135
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- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 04:07 PM
- Opinionated
- Apr 26 2016, 11:40 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
LOL, it's your circus, you figure it out.
It's hardly "my" circus. If it were, things would be far, far different. You've touted the idea throughout the thread, so step up. Tell us how this utopian fantasy will work and spare no detail.
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Ringoism: Never underestimate the advantages of being underestimated.
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Mr. Tik
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Apr 26 2016, 06:19 PM
Post #136
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- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 05:10 PM
- Opinionated
- Apr 26 2016, 04:19 PM
- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 04:07 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
It's hardly "my" circus. If it were, things would be far, far different.
You've touted the idea throughout the thread, so step up. Tell us how this utopian fantasy will work and spare no detail. Paul went to the John and said "By George, where did my Ringo?"
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You may be a conservative republican..if you are pro life until you get your mistress knocked up
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Opinionated
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Apr 26 2016, 06:22 PM
Post #137
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- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 05:10 PM
- Opinionated
- Apr 26 2016, 04:19 PM
- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 04:07 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
It's hardly "my" circus. If it were, things would be far, far different.
You've touted the idea throughout the thread, so step up. Tell us how this utopian fantasy will work and spare no detail. I don't perform for your entertainment.
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ringotuna
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Apr 26 2016, 06:25 PM
Post #138
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- Opinionated
- Apr 26 2016, 06:22 PM
- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 05:10 PM
- Opinionated
- Apr 26 2016, 04:19 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
You've touted the idea throughout the thread, so step up. Tell us how this utopian fantasy will work and spare no detail.
I don't perform for your entertainment. LOL, you don't know it, but you just did.
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Ringoism: Never underestimate the advantages of being underestimated.
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Opinionated
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Apr 26 2016, 07:09 PM
Post #139
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- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 06:25 PM
- Opinionated
- Apr 26 2016, 06:22 PM
- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 05:10 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
I don't perform for your entertainment.
LOL, you don't know it, but you just did. Feel free to tip on your way out.
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ringotuna
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Apr 26 2016, 07:31 PM
Post #140
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- ringotuna
- Apr 26 2016, 06:25 PM
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- Apr 26 2016, 06:22 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"Altman argued basic income could support huge amounts of productivity loss and still carry the economy on its shoulders.
LOL, you don't know it, but you just did.
Feel free to tip on your way out. Happily. Your little dance was well worth it.
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Ringoism: Never underestimate the advantages of being underestimated.
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