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It Begins:; Watch Cops Drag Girl Out Of NC Bathroom For “Not Looking Like A Woman”
Topic Started: Apr 27 2016, 05:37 PM (2,802 Views)
jazzyjeff

Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 02:57 PM
jazzyjeff
Apr 28 2016, 02:04 PM
Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 01:20 PM
This particular case I will need to see more about. Frankly, I am always suspicious when people don't have an ID on them because in most of this country you need an ID on your person for many different reason. Often when people claim to not have an ID then the reason for it is that they are hiding something. So on this case I definitely want more info before passing judgement on either party.

The problem with these laws in general is the way that they are worded. NC used the gender on the birth certificate as the standard. That obviously is problematic when you have people who have had gender reassignment surgeries and no longer even remotely resemble their birth gender. Obviously, those folks should be able to use the restroom of the gender that they now are.

Unfortunately, the other side of this is that the laws that give the transgender folks permission to use either restroom are also badly worded. When the language in the law permits any person to decide at any time on any whim what gender they are then this also causes potential problems. Sadly, there are many more sexual offenders and perverts in this country than there are transgender individuals. Writing the laws so loosely that any person can declare at any time what gender they are opens the door to allowing these criminals to legally enter the bathroom of their potential victims.

On the bright side, there is a solution that everyone should be able to be happy with. Simply require small business to have single stall bathrooms that are for either gender. Larger businesses can be required to have a few gender neutral single stall bathrooms in addition to the other gender specific bathrooms. Many already do this with the family bathrooms seen in large department stores. With this approach, those who have had full reassignment can use the gender that they now are while those who appear to be one sex but feel they are another can use the gender neutral bathrooms.
The NC trans law only applies to Government facilities, such as public schools, courthouses, parks etc. Non public facilities at this time are free to make any policy they wish if at all. I agree with the third party gender neutral bathrooms in government buildings and non-public buildings that wish to restrict bathroom use.

The whole pervert, child molesting thing is built on myth. Trans people have been using the bathroom of choice for years. If non-trans men wanted to dress up and molest little girls they never needed a law to do so. Instances of that happening are pretty rare. There has been and always remains the potential for a perverted man to molest a little boy in a restroom. Again instances of that happening are pretty rare.



I never claimed that any trans person was a molester. I stated very clearly that laws which are worded to allow people to randomly decide, on a whim, at any time what gender they are could and would result in it being more difficult to prosecute cases involving a criminal doing something illegal in a bathroom.

I then gave a very simple solution to the problem that does not give either side what they want but that would effectively fix the problem.
My reference to molesters was based on those writing and supporting bathroom restrictions are basing it on the belief that any man (non-trans) could dress up, enter the ladies room and molest. That potential has always been there with or without laws.
I agree with your solution but evidently the law makers that supported the NC laws do not. Otherwise it would of been written into the law. The fact of the matter is they view it as an expense they do not want to pass on to the tax-payers.

Edited by jazzyjeff, Apr 28 2016, 03:42 PM.
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CautionaryTales
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This is a law looking for a problem to,solve.
It's not about any real affront, just political posturing.


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jazzyjeff

CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 03:42 PM
This is a law looking for a problem to,solve.
It's not about any real affront, just political posturing.
Exactly. What it comes down to, is the social cons lost the gay marriage battle and are looking for any crumbs they can get.
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jazzyjeff
Apr 28 2016, 03:44 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 03:42 PM
This is a law looking for a problem to,solve.
It's not about any real affront, just political posturing.
Exactly. What it comes down to, is the social cons lost the gay marriage battle and are looking for any crumbs they can get.
Flipping figurative birds at folks is no way to make friends.


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Demagogue
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jazzyjeff
Apr 28 2016, 03:40 PM
Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 02:57 PM
jazzyjeff
Apr 28 2016, 02:04 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepThe whole pervert, child molesting thing is built on myth. Trans people have been using the bathroom of choice for years. If non-trans men wanted to dress up and molest little girls they never needed a law to do so. Instances of that happening are pretty rare. There has been and always remains the potential for a perverted man to molest a little boy in a restroom. Again instances of that happening are pretty rare.



I never claimed that any trans person was a molester. I stated very clearly that laws which are worded to allow people to randomly decide, on a whim, at any time what gender they are could and would result in it being more difficult to prosecute cases involving a criminal doing something illegal in a bathroom.

I then gave a very simple solution to the problem that does not give either side what they want but that would effectively fix the problem.
My reference to molesters was based on those writing and supporting bathroom restrictions are basing it on the belief that any man (non-trans) could dress up, enter the ladies room and molest. That potential has always been there with or without laws.
I agree with your solution but evidently the law makers that supported the NC laws do not. Otherwise it would of been written into the law. The fact of the matter is they view it as an expense they do not want to pass on to the tax-payers.

1. The concern is not that some non trans perv could play dress up. The way some of the ordinances, which these laws seek to combat have been written, you would not have to dress up at all. A guy could go into the women's room just dressed like a guy and nobody would be able to deny him so long as he claimed that he was feeling like a woman today. This is what I was referring to with loosely written laws/ordinances intended to protect transgender people.

2. The law in NC is badly written and needs to be revoked and replaced with something that makes sense logically.

3. My suggested solution is what I think the law like the one in NC and other places should be replaced with.
Edited by Demagogue, Apr 28 2016, 04:03 PM.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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Demagogue
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CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 03:42 PM
This is a law looking for a problem to,solve.
It's not about any real affront, just political posturing.
In the case of the NC law is actually legislation that was intended to combat an ordinance that was written too loosely. At some point the NC law went off the rails and became just as bad as the badly written ordinances just in the opposite direction.

So the ordinance which allowed anyone to use any restroom went too far in one direction and NC HB2 went too far in the other.

Also, what is a poor hermaphrodite supposed to do?

Is there even a place to put hermaphrodite on a birth certificate?
Edited by Demagogue, Apr 28 2016, 04:08 PM.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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CautionaryTales
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There is an even simpler and cheaper solution for business. Remove the signage that designates restrooms by sex altogether.


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Demagogue
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CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 04:05 PM
There is an even simpler and cheaper solution for business. Remove the signage that designates restrooms by sex altogether.
That would work with restrooms that only had stalls and it was part of my suggestion for small businesses which typically only have one or two restrooms that are usually just a stall.

Large restrooms in places like stadiums where essentially the guys have a trough they can all go piss in are a different story. Most folks would not want their female children going in there.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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Opinionated
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Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:05 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 03:42 PM
This is a law looking for a problem to,solve.
It's not about any real affront, just political posturing.
In the case of the NC law is actually legislation that was intended to combat an ordinance that was written too loosely. At some point the NC law went off the rails and became just as bad as the badly written ordinances just in the opposite direction.

So the ordinance which allowed anyone to use any restroom went too far in one direction and NC HB2 went too far in the other.

Also, what is a poor hermaphrodite supposed to do?

Is there even a place to put hermaphrodite on a birth certificate?
The thing is, transgender people have been self selecting their bathrooms for as long as there have been transgender people. And it basically hasn't been an issue.
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Demagogue
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Opinionated
Apr 28 2016, 04:18 PM
Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:05 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 03:42 PM
This is a law looking for a problem to,solve.
It's not about any real affront, just political posturing.
In the case of the NC law is actually legislation that was intended to combat an ordinance that was written too loosely. At some point the NC law went off the rails and became just as bad as the badly written ordinances just in the opposite direction.

So the ordinance which allowed anyone to use any restroom went too far in one direction and NC HB2 went too far in the other.

Also, what is a poor hermaphrodite supposed to do?

Is there even a place to put hermaphrodite on a birth certificate?
The thing is, transgender people have been self selecting their bathrooms for as long as there have been transgender people. And it basically hasn't been an issue.
I tend to agree. So why was there a need for ordinances declaring that any person could choose at any time what bathroom they should use?
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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CautionaryTales
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Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:09 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 04:05 PM
There is an even simpler and cheaper solution for business. Remove the signage that designates restrooms by sex altogether.
That would work with restrooms that only had stalls and it was part of my suggestion for small businesses which typically only have one or two restrooms that are usually just a stall.

Large restrooms in places like stadiums where essentially the guys have a trough they can all go piss in are a different story. Most folks would not want their female children going in there.
The Dads or Mothers could freely chaperone their kids in either restroom.
Voila! A solution to the non problem!


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Demagogue
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CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 04:21 PM
Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:09 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 04:05 PM
There is an even simpler and cheaper solution for business. Remove the signage that designates restrooms by sex altogether.
That would work with restrooms that only had stalls and it was part of my suggestion for small businesses which typically only have one or two restrooms that are usually just a stall.

Large restrooms in places like stadiums where essentially the guys have a trough they can all go piss in are a different story. Most folks would not want their female children going in there.
The Dads or Mothers could freely chaperone their kids in either restroom.
Voila! A solution to the non problem!
So wait, now because of one infinitesimally small special interest group you want to put parents in a situation where they can never feel comfortable allowing their child to go to a restroom alone.

Fascinating.

I think I would rather just set aside a couple gender neutral restrooms for those who are not obviously male or female and leave everything else as is.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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CautionaryTales
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Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:30 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 04:21 PM
Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:09 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The Dads or Mothers could freely chaperone their kids in either restroom.
Voila! A solution to the non problem!
So wait, now because of one infinitesimally small special interest group you want to put parents in a situation where they can never feel comfortable allowing their child to go to a restroom alone.

Fascinating.

I think I would rather just set aside a couple gender neutral restrooms for those who are not obviously male or female and leave everything else as is.
You want a non problem solved, you gotta go the full nine yards for the full non solution


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Demagogue
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CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 04:32 PM
Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:30 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 04:21 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
So wait, now because of one infinitesimally small special interest group you want to put parents in a situation where they can never feel comfortable allowing their child to go to a restroom alone.

Fascinating.

I think I would rather just set aside a couple gender neutral restrooms for those who are not obviously male or female and leave everything else as is.
You want a non problem solved, you gotta go the full nine yards for the full non solution
If it is a non problem the why were there ordinances passed to enable any person to decide what gender they are on a whim?
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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Freaks
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Well at least if the line in the woman's bathroom is too long I can go to the men's room. Stupid freaking lines.
"I'll be the fella to save his Cinderella,
by turnin' her dream world into real life."
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Demagogue
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Freaks1932
Apr 28 2016, 04:53 PM
Well at least if the line in the woman's bathroom is too long I can go to the men's room. Stupid freaking lines.
There ya go, there had to be a silver lining in this nonsense somewhere lol. :victory:
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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CautionaryTales
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Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:39 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 04:32 PM
Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:30 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You want a non problem solved, you gotta go the full nine yards for the full non solution
If it is a non problem the why were there ordinances passed to enable any person to decide what gender they are on a whim?
I'm not familiar with that "in a whim" part of any of the ordinances.
Could you link that part up?


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Demagogue
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CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 05:02 PM
Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:39 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 04:32 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
If it is a non problem the why were there ordinances passed to enable any person to decide what gender they are on a whim?
I'm not familiar with that "in a whim" part of any of the ordinances.
Could you link that part up?
When an ordinance says you can "Choose the restroom that corresponds to the gender with which you self identify" then that opens the door for someone to pull some shenanigans.

Here is an example.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wa-man-women-bathroom-test-transgender-ruling-article-1.2535150
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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CautionaryTales
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Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 05:16 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 05:02 PM
Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 04:39 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I'm not familiar with that "in a whim" part of any of the ordinances.
Could you link that part up?
When an ordinance says you can "Choose the restroom that corresponds to the gender with which you self identify" then that opens the door for someone to pull some shenanigans.

Here is an example.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wa-man-women-bathroom-test-transgender-ruling-article-1.2535150
Every law ever written is "open to shenanigans"


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Demagogue
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CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 05:17 PM
Demagogue
Apr 28 2016, 05:16 PM
CautionaryTales
Apr 28 2016, 05:02 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
When an ordinance says you can "Choose the restroom that corresponds to the gender with which you self identify" then that opens the door for someone to pull some shenanigans.

Here is an example.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wa-man-women-bathroom-test-transgender-ruling-article-1.2535150
Every law ever written is "open to shenanigans"
True but this type of law actually creates a possible dangerous situation that is totally unneeded. It could have been left as it was but now the cat is out of the bag so something will have to be done.

Hence my solution.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.
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