Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Perspectives. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
America Has Never Been So Ripe for Tyranny; By Andrew Sullivan
Topic Started: May 10 2016, 09:53 PM (1,485 Views)
Ronin
Member Avatar

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/america-tyranny-donald-trump.html

As this dystopian election campaign has unfolded, my mind keeps being tugged by a passage in Plato’s Republic. It has unsettled — even surprised — me from the moment I first read it in graduate school. The passage is from the part of the dialogue where Socrates and his friends are talking about the nature of different political systems, how they change over time, and how one can slowly evolve into another. And Socrates seemed pretty clear on one sobering point: that “tyranny is probably established out of no other regime than democracy.” What did Plato mean by that? Democracy, for him, I discovered, was a political system of maximal freedom and equality, where every lifestyle is allowed and public offices are filled by a lottery. And the longer a democracy lasted, Plato argued, the more democratic it would become. Its freedoms would multiply; its equality spread. Deference to any sort of authority would wither; tolerance of any kind of inequality would come under intense threat; and multiculturalism and sexual freedom would create a city or a country like “a many-colored cloak decorated in all hues.”

This rainbow-flag polity, Plato argues, is, for many people, the fairest of regimes. The freedom in that democracy has to be experienced to be believed — with shame and privilege in particular emerging over time as anathema. But it is inherently unstable. As the authority of elites fades, as Establishment values cede to popular ones, views and identities can become so magnificently diverse as to be mutually uncomprehending. And when all the barriers to equality, formal and informal, have been removed; when everyone is equal; when elites are despised and full license is established to do “whatever one wants,” you arrive at what might be called late-stage democracy. There is no kowtowing to authority here, let alone to political experience or expertise...
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
estonianman
Member Avatar

Ronin
May 10 2016, 09:53 PM
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/america-tyranny-donald-trump.html

As this dystopian election campaign has unfolded, my mind keeps being tugged by a passage in Plato’s Republic. It has unsettled — even surprised — me from the moment I first read it in graduate school. The passage is from the part of the dialogue where Socrates and his friends are talking about the nature of different political systems, how they change over time, and how one can slowly evolve into another. And Socrates seemed pretty clear on one sobering point: that “tyranny is probably established out of no other regime than democracy.” What did Plato mean by that? Democracy, for him, I discovered, was a political system of maximal freedom and equality, where every lifestyle is allowed and public offices are filled by a lottery. And the longer a democracy lasted, Plato argued, the more democratic it would become. Its freedoms would multiply; its equality spread. Deference to any sort of authority would wither; tolerance of any kind of inequality would come under intense threat; and multiculturalism and sexual freedom would create a city or a country like “a many-colored cloak decorated in all hues.”

This rainbow-flag polity, Plato argues, is, for many people, the fairest of regimes. The freedom in that democracy has to be experienced to be believed — with shame and privilege in particular emerging over time as anathema. But it is inherently unstable. As the authority of elites fades, as Establishment values cede to popular ones, views and identities can become so magnificently diverse as to be mutually uncomprehending. And when all the barriers to equality, formal and informal, have been removed; when everyone is equal; when elites are despised and full license is established to do “whatever one wants,” you arrive at what might be called late-stage democracy. There is no kowtowing to authority here, let alone to political experience or expertise...
excellent thread. So the answer is tyranny, right?
MEEK AND MILD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Harambe4Trump
Member Avatar

We had tyrants before with Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, and LBJ.
Skipping leg day is the equivalent of a woman having an abortion. You're ashamed of it, and it was probably unnecessary.
#MAGA
#wallsnotwars
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ronin
Member Avatar

What was y'alls favorite part of the article?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
clone
Member Avatar
Director @ Center for Advanced Memetic Warfare
andrew sullivan? the brit who posted anonymous online advertisements for unprotected anal sex, preferably with "other HIV-positive men"....worried about tyranny? I think he's got other issues to worry about....
Only liberals can choose not to go down the road to widespread, systematic violence.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ronin
Member Avatar

clone
May 10 2016, 10:01 PM
andrew sullivan? the brit who posted anonymous online advertisements for unprotected anal sex, preferably with "other HIV-positive men"....worried about tyranny? I think he's got other issues to worry about....
Do you not read things written by gay folks?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
nNeo

Ronin
May 10 2016, 10:00 PM
What was y'alls favorite part of the article?
"More to the point, those Republicans desperately trying to use the long-standing rules of their own nominating process to thwart this monster deserve our passionate support, not our disdain...The Republican delegates who are trying to protect their party from the whims of an outsider demagogue are, at this moment, doing what they ought to be doing to prevent civil and racial unrest, an international conflict, and a constitutional crisis. These GOP elites have every right to deploy whatever rules or procedural roadblocks they can muster, and they should refuse to be intimidated.

And if they fail in Indiana or Cleveland, as they likely will, they need, quite simply, to disown their party’s candidate. They should resist any temptation to loyally back the nominee or to sit this election out. They must take the fight to Trump at every opportunity, unite with Democrats and Independents against him, and be prepared to sacrifice one election in order to save their party and their country.

For Trump is not just a wacky politician of the far right, or a riveting television spectacle, or a Twitter phenom and bizarre working-class hero. He is not just another candidate to be parsed and analyzed by TV pundits in the same breath as all the others. In terms of our liberal democracy and constitutional order, Trump is an extinction-level event. It’s long past time we started treating him as such."
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
BuckFan

I'm not sure about that tyranny stuff but clearly hyperbole is not dead
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Harambe4Trump
Member Avatar

nNeo
May 10 2016, 10:22 PM
Ronin
May 10 2016, 10:00 PM
What was y'alls favorite part of the article?
"More to the point, those Republicans desperately trying to use the long-standing rules of their own nominating process to thwart this monster deserve our passionate support, not our disdain...The Republican delegates who are trying to protect their party from the whims of an outsider demagogue are, at this moment, doing what they ought to be doing to prevent civil and racial unrest, an international conflict, and a constitutional crisis. These GOP elites have every right to deploy whatever rules or procedural roadblocks they can muster, and they should refuse to be intimidated.

And if they fail in Indiana or Cleveland, as they likely will, they need, quite simply, to disown their party’s candidate. They should resist any temptation to loyally back the nominee or to sit this election out. They must take the fight to Trump at every opportunity, unite with Democrats and Independents against him, and be prepared to sacrifice one election in order to save their party and their country.

For Trump is not just a wacky politician of the far right, or a riveting television spectacle, or a Twitter phenom and bizarre working-class hero. He is not just another candidate to be parsed and analyzed by TV pundits in the same breath as all the others. In terms of our liberal democracy and constitutional order, Trump is an extinction-level event. It’s long past time we started treating him as such."
:rotflmao:
Skipping leg day is the equivalent of a woman having an abortion. You're ashamed of it, and it was probably unnecessary.
#MAGA
#wallsnotwars
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jake58

nNeo
May 10 2016, 10:22 PM
Ronin
May 10 2016, 10:00 PM
What was y'alls favorite part of the article?
"More to the point, those Republicans desperately trying to use the long-standing rules of their own nominating process to thwart this monster deserve our passionate support, not our disdain...The Republican delegates who are trying to protect their party from the whims of an outsider demagogue are, at this moment, doing what they ought to be doing to prevent civil and racial unrest, an international conflict, and a constitutional crisis. These GOP elites have every right to deploy whatever rules or procedural roadblocks they can muster, and they should refuse to be intimidated.

And if they fail in Indiana or Cleveland, as they likely will, they need, quite simply, to disown their party’s candidate. They should resist any temptation to loyally back the nominee or to sit this election out. They must take the fight to Trump at every opportunity, unite with Democrats and Independents against him, and be prepared to sacrifice one election in order to save their party and their country.

For Trump is not just a wacky politician of the far right, or a riveting television spectacle, or a Twitter phenom and bizarre working-class hero. He is not just another candidate to be parsed and analyzed by TV pundits in the same breath as all the others. In terms of our liberal democracy and constitutional order, Trump is an extinction-level event. It’s long past time we started treating him as such."
ha, just another self righteous yahoo who doesn't understand the general public's level of disgust with where we are and the leaders who got us here...
That which can be asserted without evidence; can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchens
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Drudge X
Member Avatar

nNeo
May 10 2016, 10:22 PM
Ronin
May 10 2016, 10:00 PM
What was y'alls favorite part of the article?
"More to the point, those Republicans desperately trying to use the long-standing rules of their own nominating process to thwart this monster deserve our passionate support, not our disdain...The Republican delegates who are trying to protect their party from the whims of an outsider demagogue are, at this moment, doing what they ought to be doing to prevent civil and racial unrest, an international conflict, and a constitutional crisis. These GOP elites have every right to deploy whatever rules or procedural roadblocks they can muster, and they should refuse to be intimidated.

And if they fail in Indiana or Cleveland, as they likely will, they need, quite simply, to disown their party’s candidate. They should resist any temptation to loyally back the nominee or to sit this election out. They must take the fight to Trump at every opportunity, unite with Democrats and Independents against him, and be prepared to sacrifice one election in order to save their party and their country.

For Trump is not just a wacky politician of the far right, or a riveting television spectacle, or a Twitter phenom and bizarre working-class hero. He is not just another candidate to be parsed and analyzed by TV pundits in the same breath as all the others. In terms of our liberal democracy and constitutional order, Trump is an extinction-level event. It’s long past time we started treating him as such."
Sounds like you are afraid of a Trump presidency comrade.
Kate Steinle was separated from her family permanently but leftists didn't seem to mind.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Two a.m.
Member Avatar

I read this article a couple days ago. A long but absolutely excellent read. It's also the first time I've read something about the Trump phenomenon that I agreed with almost 100 percent. Most analyses are lacking. This one seems spot on in putting this Trump nonsense in the larger context.
"The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them." - George Orwell, 1984
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Robert Stout
Member Avatar

I have been concerned about our susceptibility to tyranny ever since Hillary started her campaign...She used her corporate friends to capture over 400 super delegates since the beginning, making it nearly impossible for a challenger to stand in her way...The only thing that stands in her way of getting the nomination is an arrest by the FBI.......... :machinegun:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Robert Stout
Member Avatar

DP
Edited by Robert Stout, May 10 2016, 11:11 PM.
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mr. Tik
Member Avatar

Drudge X
May 10 2016, 10:49 PM
nNeo
May 10 2016, 10:22 PM
Ronin
May 10 2016, 10:00 PM
What was y'alls favorite part of the article?
"More to the point, those Republicans desperately trying to use the long-standing rules of their own nominating process to thwart this monster deserve our passionate support, not our disdain...The Republican delegates who are trying to protect their party from the whims of an outsider demagogue are, at this moment, doing what they ought to be doing to prevent civil and racial unrest, an international conflict, and a constitutional crisis. These GOP elites have every right to deploy whatever rules or procedural roadblocks they can muster, and they should refuse to be intimidated.

And if they fail in Indiana or Cleveland, as they likely will, they need, quite simply, to disown their party’s candidate. They should resist any temptation to loyally back the nominee or to sit this election out. They must take the fight to Trump at every opportunity, unite with Democrats and Independents against him, and be prepared to sacrifice one election in order to save their party and their country.

For Trump is not just a wacky politician of the far right, or a riveting television spectacle, or a Twitter phenom and bizarre working-class hero. He is not just another candidate to be parsed and analyzed by TV pundits in the same breath as all the others. In terms of our liberal democracy and constitutional order, Trump is an extinction-level event. It’s long past time we started treating him as such."
Sounds like you are afraid of a Trump presidency comrade.
Quote:
 
To call this fascism doesn’t do justice to fascism. Fascism had, in some measure, an ideology and occasional coherence that Trump utterly lacks. But his movement is clearly fascistic in its demonization of foreigners, its hyping of a threat by a domestic minority (Muslims and Mexicans are the new Jews), its focus on a single supreme leader of what can only be called a cult, and its deep belief in violence and coercion in a democracy that has heretofore relied on debate and persuasion. This is the Weimar aspect of our current moment. Just as the English Civil War ended with a dictatorship under Oliver Cromwell, and the French Revolution gave us Napoleon Bonaparte, and the unstable chaos of Russian democracy yielded to Vladimir Putin, and the most recent burst of Egyptian democracy set the conditions for General el-Sisi’s coup, so our paralyzed, emotional hyperdemocracy leads the stumbling, frustrated, angry voter toward the chimerical panacea of Trump.

His response to his third vaunted enemy, the RNC, is also laced with the threat of violence. There will be riots in Cleveland if he doesn’t get his way. The RNC will have “a rough time” if it doesn’t cooperate. “Paul Ryan, I don’t know him well, but I’m sure I’m going to get along great with him,” Trump has said. “And if I don’t? He’s gonna have to pay a big price, okay?” The past month has seen delegates to the Cleveland convention receiving death threats; one of Trump’s hatchet men, Roger Stone, has already threatened to publish the hotel rooms of delegates who refuse to vote for Trump.
You may be a conservative republican..if you are pro life until you get your mistress knocked up
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Two a.m.
Member Avatar

We never thought there could be anything worse the the Tea Party's bad ideas. Enter Trump's lack of ideas.

Worst of all, no one seems to care. Trump seems able to disregard not just traditional party positions but even his own previous positions and none of it much matters. People are in love with the emotion. They don't care about the content. Same thing going on with Bernie.
"The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them." - George Orwell, 1984
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jake58

Good Lord, while I admire the effort, I have to marvel at the historical ignorance of putting Cromwell, Napoleon and Trump in the same box. It harkens back to those who thought we would be a Communist country after 2 terms of Obama. Sullivan et al are imbuing the US President with powers he simply doesn't have, even assuming a sympathetic Congress.

And while the odds of a Trump presidency seem somewhat long to this observer, the odds of a Trump presidency and a sympathetic Congress are even longer.
That which can be asserted without evidence; can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchens
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ronin
Member Avatar

jake58
May 10 2016, 10:43 PM
nNeo
May 10 2016, 10:22 PM
Ronin
May 10 2016, 10:00 PM
What was y'alls favorite part of the article?
"More to the point, those Republicans desperately trying to use the long-standing rules of their own nominating process to thwart this monster deserve our passionate support, not our disdain...The Republican delegates who are trying to protect their party from the whims of an outsider demagogue are, at this moment, doing what they ought to be doing to prevent civil and racial unrest, an international conflict, and a constitutional crisis. These GOP elites have every right to deploy whatever rules or procedural roadblocks they can muster, and they should refuse to be intimidated.

And if they fail in Indiana or Cleveland, as they likely will, they need, quite simply, to disown their party’s candidate. They should resist any temptation to loyally back the nominee or to sit this election out. They must take the fight to Trump at every opportunity, unite with Democrats and Independents against him, and be prepared to sacrifice one election in order to save their party and their country.

For Trump is not just a wacky politician of the far right, or a riveting television spectacle, or a Twitter phenom and bizarre working-class hero. He is not just another candidate to be parsed and analyzed by TV pundits in the same breath as all the others. In terms of our liberal democracy and constitutional order, Trump is an extinction-level event. It’s long past time we started treating him as such."
ha, just another self righteous yahoo who doesn't understand the general public's level of disgust with where we are and the leaders who got us here...
On the contrary, a good portion of this piece is an explanation of why Trump's core constituency is extremely and justifiably frustrated.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
estonianman
Member Avatar

Two a.m.
May 10 2016, 11:17 PM
We never thought there could be anything worse the the Tea Party's bad ideas. Enter Trump's lack of ideas.

Worst of all, no one seems to care. Trump seems able to disregard not just traditional party positions but even his own previous positions and none of it much matters. People are in love with the emotion. They don't care about the content. Same thing going on with Bernie.
Liberty and freedom is a bad idea?

Regarding what the tea party initially stood for, not trump
MEEK AND MILD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Two a.m.
Member Avatar

estonianman
May 10 2016, 11:29 PM
Two a.m.
May 10 2016, 11:17 PM
We never thought there could be anything worse the the Tea Party's bad ideas. Enter Trump's lack of ideas.

Worst of all, no one seems to care. Trump seems able to disregard not just traditional party positions but even his own previous positions and none of it much matters. People are in love with the emotion. They don't care about the content. Same thing going on with Bernie.
Liberty and freedom is a bad idea?

Regarding what the tea party initially stood for, not trump
What the Tea Party initially stood for was a rather hazy blend of politically motivated misconceptions about the Founding Fathers mixed with a generous dose of anti-tax paranoia about socialism and the occasional bout of nativism. Most of it revolved around muddle-headed thinking regarding budgetary priorities and revenue. Very little of it had much of anything to do with freedom or liberty. These were merely words the TPers tossed around a lot - much the same way liberals scream about "justice" all the time without really having any idea what that actually means.
"The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them." - George Orwell, 1984
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums with no limits on posts or members.
Learn More · Sign-up Now
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Op EDITORIALS: personal & political governance · Next Topic »
Add Reply