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America Has Never Been So Ripe for Tyranny; By Andrew Sullivan
Topic Started: May 10 2016, 09:53 PM (1,484 Views)
estonianman
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Two a.m.
May 10 2016, 11:58 PM
estonianman
May 10 2016, 11:29 PM
Two a.m.
May 10 2016, 11:17 PM
We never thought there could be anything worse the the Tea Party's bad ideas. Enter Trump's lack of ideas.

Worst of all, no one seems to care. Trump seems able to disregard not just traditional party positions but even his own previous positions and none of it much matters. People are in love with the emotion. They don't care about the content. Same thing going on with Bernie.
Liberty and freedom is a bad idea?

Regarding what the tea party initially stood for, not trump
What the Tea Party initially stood for was a rather hazy blend of politically motivated misconceptions about the Founding Fathers mixed with a generous dose of anti-tax paranoia about socialism and the occasional bout of nativism. Most of it revolved around muddle-headed thinking regarding budgetary priorities and revenue. Very little of it had much of anything to do with freedom or liberty. These were merely words the TPers tossed around a lot - much the same way liberals scream about "justice" all the time without really having any idea what that actually means.
I thought the original Tea Party movement was motivated by Ron Paul - and then like everything else was co-opted by authoritarians.
MEEK AND MILD
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Two a.m.
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estonianman
May 11 2016, 12:02 AM
Two a.m.
May 10 2016, 11:58 PM
estonianman
May 10 2016, 11:29 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
What the Tea Party initially stood for was a rather hazy blend of politically motivated misconceptions about the Founding Fathers mixed with a generous dose of anti-tax paranoia about socialism and the occasional bout of nativism. Most of it revolved around muddle-headed thinking regarding budgetary priorities and revenue. Very little of it had much of anything to do with freedom or liberty. These were merely words the TPers tossed around a lot - much the same way liberals scream about "justice" all the time without really having any idea what that actually means.
I thought the original Tea Party movement was motivated by Ron Paul - and then like everything else was co-opted by authoritarians.
I don't recall it being very Ron Paulish in nature. They probably had some things in common. But mainly it was an anti-Obama movement obsessed with taxes, spending and opposition to Obamacare specifically and government involvement in economic matters generally.

Paul might go along with that but it lacked his isolationism and social libertarianism and was far more focused on anti-Obamaism than the Paul family which tends more toward ideas than hating on the president. It was more modern conservative than iconoclastic libertarian.
Edited by Two a.m., May 11 2016, 12:08 AM.
"The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them." - George Orwell, 1984
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nNeo

jake58
May 10 2016, 10:43 PM
ha, just another self righteous yahoo who doesn't understand the general public's level of disgust with where we are and the leaders who got us here...
Since that's literally what the article is about, you either didn't read it, or didn't understand it.

Point being a segment is indeed disgusted and/or afraid,largely for the wrong reasons and at the wrong things, and because of that, wants changes that would likely make most or all of their problems worse.

Symbolism and emotion have displaced fact and reason to a dangerous degree.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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nNeo

Two a.m.
May 11 2016, 12:07 AM
I don't recall it being very Ron Paulish in nature. They probably had some things in common. But mainly it was an anti-Obama movement obsessed with taxes, spending and opposition to Obamacare specifically and government involvement in economic matters generally.
estonianman is right on the early history, The first TP iteration came out of Campaign for Liberty, which was a Paul support organization, and was largely a libertarian / paleocon reaction to the neocon / neolib tack the GOP seemed to be taking - corporatism, running large deficits, and starting wars. It was fairly coherent, but small. Unfortunately once it got on the radar, it was quickly over-run by the nutter version you are describing.
Edited by nNeo, May 11 2016, 12:33 AM.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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Two a.m.
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nNeo
May 11 2016, 12:24 AM
jake58
May 10 2016, 10:43 PM
ha, just another self righteous yahoo who doesn't understand the general public's level of disgust with where we are and the leaders who got us here...
Since that's literally what the article is about, you either didn't read it, or didn't understand it.

Point being a segment is indeed disgusted and/or afraid,largely for the wrong reasons and at the wrong things, and because of that, wants changes that would likely make most or all of their problems worse.

Symbolism and emotion have displaced fact and reason to a dangerous degree.
A frightening trend in both parties.

It just seems to be coming to fruition faster in the GOP.
"The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them." - George Orwell, 1984
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Two a.m.
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nNeo
May 11 2016, 12:32 AM
Two a.m.
May 11 2016, 12:07 AM
I don't recall it being very Ron Paulish in nature. They probably had some things in common. But mainly it was an anti-Obama movement obsessed with taxes, spending and opposition to Obamacare specifically and government involvement in economic matters generally.
estonianman is right on the early history, The first TP iteration came out of Campaign for Liberty, which was a Paul support organization, and was largely a libertarian / paleocon reaction to the neocon / neolib tack the GOP seemed to be taking - corporatism, running large deficits, and starting wars. It was fairly coherent, but small. Unfortunately once it got on the radar, it was quickly over-run by the nutter version you are describing.

Ah...thanks. I'm not familiar with its early history.
"The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them." - George Orwell, 1984
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Harambe4Trump
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nNeo
May 11 2016, 12:24 AM
jake58
May 10 2016, 10:43 PM
ha, just another self righteous yahoo who doesn't understand the general public's level of disgust with where we are and the leaders who got us here...
Since that's literally what the article is about, you either didn't read it, or didn't understand it.

Point being a segment is indeed disgusted and/or afraid,largely for the wrong reasons and at the wrong things, and because of that, wants changes that would likely make most or all of their problems worse.

Symbolism and emotion have displaced fact and reason to a dangerous degree.
The horror and horror of knowing how to successfully market to the masses? Will we know hear a treatise on how Interstellar relied on emotion and symbols to create a compelling story instead of relying on cold logic?

Give me a break.
Skipping leg day is the equivalent of a woman having an abortion. You're ashamed of it, and it was probably unnecessary.
#MAGA
#wallsnotwars
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nNeo

jake58
May 10 2016, 11:26 PM
And while the odds of a Trump presidency seem somewhat long to this observer, the odds of a Trump presidency and a sympathetic Congress are even longer.
Yes, that's a comfort. I have to trust that even if he wins, our lovely system of checks and balances will restrain his dumber intentions. However he will likely get to name a justice, and potentially 2 or 3, and the Senate could end up 50/50, or very close. That's a setup that gives the executive unusual opportunities.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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nNeo

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 12:45 AM
The horror and horror of knowing how to successfully market to the masses?


It's far past marketing. It's manipulation, fear mongering, incitement, and blatant lies.

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 12:45 AM
Will we know hear a treatise on how Interstellar relied on emotion and symbols to create a compelling story instead of relying on cold logic?


Fantasy and emotion are lovely for entertainment, but not a basis for public policy. There should be a clear distinction, but as media has been reporting less and less factual news, and spending more and more time telling you how to feel about it, that line has been blurred. Millions of people are now angry without really knowing why, and even over things that haven't actually happened. There's a huge disconnect between perception and reality, and that's an expressway to bad decisions.
Edited by nNeo, May 11 2016, 12:56 AM.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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Coast2coast

estonianman
May 10 2016, 11:29 PM
Two a.m.
May 10 2016, 11:17 PM
We never thought there could be anything worse the the Tea Party's bad ideas. Enter Trump's lack of ideas.

Worst of all, no one seems to care. Trump seems able to disregard not just traditional party positions but even his own previous positions and none of it much matters. People are in love with the emotion. They don't care about the content. Same thing going on with Bernie.
Liberty and freedom is a bad idea?

Regarding what the tea party initially stood for, not trump
The Group Tantrum Party rose as a reaction to a Liberal President. No liberal President would have equaled no Group Tantrum Party.

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Two a.m.
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American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 12:45 AM
nNeo
May 11 2016, 12:24 AM
jake58
May 10 2016, 10:43 PM
ha, just another self righteous yahoo who doesn't understand the general public's level of disgust with where we are and the leaders who got us here...
Since that's literally what the article is about, you either didn't read it, or didn't understand it.

Point being a segment is indeed disgusted and/or afraid,largely for the wrong reasons and at the wrong things, and because of that, wants changes that would likely make most or all of their problems worse.

Symbolism and emotion have displaced fact and reason to a dangerous degree.
The horror and horror of knowing how to successfully market to the masses? Will we know hear a treatise on how Interstellar relied on emotion and symbols to create a compelling story instead of relying on cold logic?

Give me a break.
The director of Interstellar did not gain control over an arsenal of nuclear weapons.
"The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them." - George Orwell, 1984
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Harambe4Trump
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Two a.m.
May 11 2016, 12:52 AM
American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 12:45 AM
nNeo
May 11 2016, 12:24 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The horror and horror of knowing how to successfully market to the masses? Will we know hear a treatise on how Interstellar relied on emotion and symbols to create a compelling story instead of relying on cold logic?

Give me a break.
The director of Interstellar did not gain control over an arsenal of nuclear weapons.
Symbolism and emotion are effective means by which to reach people. Criticizing successful politicians or entertainers for utilizing them is beyond abscurd.
Skipping leg day is the equivalent of a woman having an abortion. You're ashamed of it, and it was probably unnecessary.
#MAGA
#wallsnotwars
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nNeo

Coast2coast
May 11 2016, 12:51 AM
The Group Tantrum Party rose as a reaction to a Liberal President. No liberal President would have equaled no Group Tantrum Party.

No, it started during the Bush administration. However what you describe happened once Obama was elected. and that's when it went off the rails.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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Two a.m.
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American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 12:54 AM
Two a.m.
May 11 2016, 12:52 AM
American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 12:45 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The director of Interstellar did not gain control over an arsenal of nuclear weapons.
Symbolism and emotion are effective means by which to reach people. Criticizing successful politicians or entertainers for utilizing them is beyond abscurd.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were qualifications and coherent policies behind those things?
"The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them." - George Orwell, 1984
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Harambe4Trump
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nNeo
May 11 2016, 12:50 AM
American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 12:45 AM
The horror and horror of knowing how to successfully market to the masses?


It's far past marketing. It's manipulation, fear mongering, incitement, and blatant lies.

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 12:45 AM
Will we know hear a treatise on how Interstellar relied on emotion and symbols to create a compelling story instead of relying on cold logic?


Fantasy and emotion are lovely for entertainment, but not a basis for public policy. There should be a clear distinction, but as media has been reporting less and less factual news, and spending more and more time telling you how to feel about it, that line has been blurred. Millions of people are now angry without really knowing why, and even over things that haven't actually happened. There's a huge disconnect between perception and reality, and that's an expressway to bad decisions.
People know exactly why they are angry. We have been at war with jihadism since September 11 which led to two foreign adventure wherein thousands of Americans died for nothing with many more maimed. Wages have been stagnant since 2000 but not for the 1%. This country is being transformed into Mexico. The economy crashed in 2008 while the bankers responsible were largely unpunished.


People are emotional and respond to symbols. Steve Jobs understood this and created the most profitable mobile company when the iPhone is objectively no better than Android.

Drone on about Trump's masterful persuasive skills, but that is not a legitimate criticism.
Skipping leg day is the equivalent of a woman having an abortion. You're ashamed of it, and it was probably unnecessary.
#MAGA
#wallsnotwars
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nNeo

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 01:06 AM
People know exactly why they are angry.


That's the problem. What they "know" isn't based on reality, and their emotional reactions aren't going to fix things.

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 01:06 AM
We have been at war with jihadism since September 11 which led to two foreign adventure wherein thousands of Americans died for nothing with many more maimed.


In fact the two pointless, costly wars were themselves a populist-fueled reaction, illustrating perfectly why emotion, especially jingoism, leads to horrible policy.

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 01:06 AM
Wages have been stagnant since 2000 but not for the 1%.


Longer than that actually. Do you actually think that electing a member of the 1%, actually more like .01%, is going to fix that? Trump has spent his whole life screwing over people like you to make himself richer. Suddenly he's the savior of the common man? It's absurd.

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 01:06 AM
This country is being transformed into Mexico.


Not sure what you mean by that? Employment has been improving, illegal immigration is at a 15 year low, crime is up slightly from a year or two ago, but still lower than it's been in generations. Obama reduced the (still too high) deficit significantly, and fewer American service people are fighting overseas. Things aren't fantastic, but they're a lot better than they were a few years ago.

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 01:06 AM
The economy crashed in 2008 while the bankers responsible were largely unpunished.


And they won't be, no matter who wins the election. Welcome to America sailor. Have a cupcake.
Edited by nNeo, May 11 2016, 01:24 AM.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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Harambe4Trump
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Two a.m.
May 11 2016, 01:04 AM
American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 12:54 AM
Two a.m.
May 11 2016, 12:52 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Symbolism and emotion are effective means by which to reach people. Criticizing successful politicians or entertainers for utilizing them is beyond abscurd.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were qualifications and coherent policies behind those things?
There in fact is. He will have a wall, Muslim immigration or even visa passes will be prohibited, free trade will be curtailed, and this country would persue an isolationist foreign policy. He has been consistent throughout on this.
Skipping leg day is the equivalent of a woman having an abortion. You're ashamed of it, and it was probably unnecessary.
#MAGA
#wallsnotwars
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nNeo

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 01:08 AM
[He will have a wall,


Which will cost billions and do almost nothing.

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 01:08 AM
[Muslim immigration or even visa passes will be prohibited


A heavy-handed policy to address a minuscule threat.

American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 01:08 AM
[ this country would persue an isolationist foreign policy.


Not a smart strategy in a hyper-competitive 21st century world. "Curtailing trade" would immediately plunge us into recession. That alone is reason enough not to vote for Trump

All of those are policies that would be expensive and ineffective, even detrimental. Symbolism in lieu of substance. Exactly the point.

Good night,

Edited by nNeo, May 11 2016, 01:32 AM.
“Strong people don’t need strong leaders.”
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Ronin
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American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 01:08 AM
Two a.m.
May 11 2016, 01:04 AM
American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 12:54 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Wouldn't it be nice if there were qualifications and coherent policies behind those things?
There in fact is. He will have a wall, Muslim immigration or even visa passes will be prohibited, free trade will be curtailed, and this country would persue an isolationist foreign policy. He has been consistent throughout on this.
If you were still in the military and given an order which you believed was illegal but was told came directly from the Whitehouse under President Trump, would you follow it?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
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Harambe4Trump
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Ronin
May 11 2016, 01:29 AM
American Identitarian
May 11 2016, 01:08 AM
Two a.m.
May 11 2016, 01:04 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
There in fact is. He will have a wall, Muslim immigration or even visa passes will be prohibited, free trade will be curtailed, and this country would persue an isolationist foreign policy. He has been consistent throughout on this.
If you were still in the military and given an order which you believed was illegal but was told came directly from the Whitehouse under President Trump, would you follow it?
I would never believe not accept that an order of President Trump would be illegal.
Skipping leg day is the equivalent of a woman having an abortion. You're ashamed of it, and it was probably unnecessary.
#MAGA
#wallsnotwars
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