EU referendum results live: Brexit most likely outcome says leading pollster
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I'll ask one more time, more in hope than in expectation, about what you think about 'Brexit, the movie'. I realise it and the link I posted above confront your prejudices, but if you're going to close your mind to any argument that's difficult to deal with we can't engage in any meaningful debate. There's no rush to reply. I'd rather you watched it carefully, then replied, rather than with the usual knee-jerk stuff I've come to expect from you. PLEASE.
What a silly answer. I certainly haven't said, inferred or even implied, any such thing regarding American politics. One thing you really do excel at making is impressive, groundless leaps. I've asked you before to try to concentrate on what I've said, not on what you would like me to have said.
So we're agreed then: The EU's Commmon Foreign and Security policy is evolving. Despite the slow pace of progress, the European External Action Service still has 5000 staff and an annual budget of over half a billion euro. I suppose you feel that's money well spent. Do you think the UK should wait around to see what a xxxx up it can make of society? It made a start letting Greece join the euro, ably assisted by Goldman Sachs of course. The odds for it improving society aren't good.
I live approximately half way between London and Brighton in South East England which is of course in both Europe and in the European Union. Check it out on a map for yourself if you're in doubt.
The original EEC was too much for me. The British establishment line was that the 'Common Market' as it was then known was a trade block that would involve no loss of sovereignty. No British government has ever corrected that lie. They have always ridiculed anyone who disagreed, but political and monetary union was always the end game. You knew that, I assume?
And globalism is a reality. I've told you that isn't in dispute. Are you saying the globalism controls national democracies; that national democracies can't react to globalism as they see fit? It's absurd to think the UK leaving the EU will 'wreck' society. This piece of land managed well enough for hundreds of years before we joined the EU and certainly can again. The UK will leave the EU and govern itself according to UK Parliamentary democracy. Why does that worry you so much? The EU will carry on without us if that's what European citizens want. Most of the world's countries are not in the EU ... are they full of nationalists to be feared and insulted? Your arguments are irrational, but my personal life is just fine as are the personal lives of all the Brexiters I know.
No thoughts on Johnson's lies then. Thought not. Predictably, you've just swallowed the remain campaign camp line without considering the opposing arguments properly. You stick with your 'Dummies' guide. It's made for europhiles. (I do already have a copy, by chance.)
I know you disagree with the Brexit the Movie contributors and me, but we haven't really got to the bottom of why you disagree. Trying to call into question the character of people who don't agree with you without reasonable foundation just won't do it, and to suggest even the introduction was a 'matter of propaganda' is to avoid the argument, nothing new there. It's difficult for you when remain campaigners give you no sensible arguments to work with, I know.
I want to believe you've really thought about the Brexit argument but don't want you to waste your time and mine droning on for dozens of pages I won't read when you've already told me ad nauseam what you think of my 'nationalistic values', etc, anyway.
No it's not a silly answer. You're hiding something which I will not do because I live in a real world and need to confront those realities in my daily work as well. (I've also been to UK for over 5 months both working and on two holidays travelling around, also visiting Brighton back in 1995 but I recall not driving the A23.) Simply, I don't believe of what you have written in your post about your origins and whereabouts. Try to be a better and a real person in this forum as well, will you?
A question: How does one (anyone) build a 'Common Foreign and Security Policy'? You are referring to some historical events which have had to go through thorough and long lasting struggles within a specified region how such a political and military force is build in general, don't you? So, should I bring some information to you from the history books how did the Britain <or replace your current country here> you know of today was born and how it did manage to come up to such a concept as a British <or replace your current country here> Army and other national security institutions within that region?
If you want opinions/viewpoints to larger issues you're telling in your post(s), stop lying in them. Be a real human.
Because you yourself are already telling the realities of yourself what you have become as a person with very limited willingness to 'droning other viewpoints', what makes you think the source of all the nationalism which was the reality in Europe (because Europe discovered it in the first place) is this re-emerged nationalism also an answer to the question of globalism which is also majorly the modern reality of the history of Europe (by the invention of the USA and it's own Foreign Policies, especially after WW2 era)? To me, this re-emerged nationalism is just a very stupid and the most wrong one defense mechanism because it does not solve anything at all. It can just postpone some issues for a while which we humans need to face anyway at some point.
So, after all your "nationalistic" hubris, how do you think the Britain will be able to handle the rest of multi-polar world, where nationalism doesn't really account too much, because we have already competitions between continents (geographical and/or cultural)? Will it rely on its colonial past as it seems to be relying to?
Yes. Please try to read the real history of Europe, how nationalism was born in this continent, not just some US born propaganda publications, born out of how the US itself was born as a side effect of European history. (If I remember correctly, you had some single history book which you like(d) to refer to...), most likely written by the North Americans.
Thousands of local cultures existing before the modern concept of nationalism was born, were destroyed by killing and forcing people in many different ways such as harassing to accept the "new way of identifying nationality" and language(s) which were accepted by the nationalists who were to blame that we have such a number of countries, states, territories and such existing today. None of those borders have been naturally born - they have been drawn by someones who were in the position to be able to define such borders.
Even though the US has only a de facto English language, it doesn't really understand how the language itself is just a one form of defining what a culture is and what all it can entail.
I suppose that the EU is doomed to accept German as their official language...Hitler would have been so proud of his "United Europe".........
Although, as in Finland's case, it doesn't mean he will not stop telling lies to his supporters in some other ways when talking to his supporters for personal gain (probably his Facebook posts) . That kind of behaviour will most likely be part of his character in the future as well.
The news I've read about doesn't mean that Nigel Farage will drop out on political career. He will be held responsible for his acts as a person in the press. I recall reading that there are some policians in the UK who have killed themselves later on in life because of the blunders made in their career.
Nigel Farage dropping the leadership of UKIP has the very potential of being parallel to G.W.Bush saying "Mission accomplished", which has lead to creation of Isis, far more dangerous than Al-Qaeda ever has been. The real work of the cause of Brexit hasn't really even begun yet. It will takes years to see the effects but in the US case, it has and will still cost billions of dollars to the US taxpayers. How the debt is handled, is another subject but related to the foreign policy as in England's case as well.
To answer your video post in thorough details would require for me to write a post of dozens of pages of how that man believes in the lies of many of the way too conservative British Press news publications throughout the years. But to get a few realities of this world of ours through: He has an extremely narrow view of the changed world, of what the EU is, what does it represent in the globalized world, and how it actually works. The person doesn't understand the reasons how and why the globalism, build by us WESTERN COUNTRIES OURSELVES, requires changes from the nationalistic values we WESTERN COUNTRIES OURSELVES have also build in the past centuries. His "peace sign" at the end is pathetic one. He doesn't understand who is "the enemy" in our changed world. By the expressions he uses in his speech, he believes in uber nationalism and nothing can change his values any more in his life.
BTW, I'm getting closer to 50 years already, and I've lived much of my life in an already globalised world with constructive values and constructive attitude in real life. I don't blame the world for changing as it has done so since the existense of the universe, including the human knowledge of it.
Getting a short introduction to how democracies can also work:
"The European Parliament has the right to approve and dismiss the European Commission. Since 1994, commissioners-designate have been required to appear before an EP hearing. Under the Lisbon Treaty, EU heads of state propose a candidate for Commission President, taking into account the results of European elections. The candidate is elected by the EP." "Parliament can ask the Court to take action against the Commission or Council if they have acted in a way that is contrary to the spirit of EU law."
European people elect the MEPs (=Member of the European Parliament). So, the Commission is indirectly elected. I do agree that the representatives of the European Commission needs to accept that
I can say that people with your values and political views which are stuck like a forever jumping record, will not believe that a person has lied even if the PERSON HIM/HERSELF has said he/she lied.
Sorry, I see behind your attitudes. I will not fall to that category, which is extremely typical especially in US politics. Do remember that I've been following this board since the early 2000's (sometimes more, sometimes less).
YOU may want this one single lie but because the guy we are talking about has already admitted HIMSELF he has lied, and now his position require to take some actual responsibility of his own actions and words, your request doesn't matter.
I know that there might a third major party in the US (if the republican party will split). Finland has a multi-party system existing nearly 100 years which has an affect how politics is run in a democracy. To me, the 2 party system is not working well to be able to represent a proper democracy, where people have to try to listen what others are saying.
If you want this one single lie from Boris Johnson, go ask it from a US citizen or from British or UK citizen, who doesn't share the same attitude as you do - not me. Your kind of logic does not work in many parts of Europe simply because its too narrow and stupid, and doesn't result to anything constructive.
Or then stop harassing people who you are not capable of dealing with except with the too well known simplicity.
:oyvey
One lie...! I just want one lie, OK?
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YOU may want this one single lie but because the guy we are talking about has already admitted HIMSELF he has lied,
When did he admit this lie, and what EXACTLY was the lie? (among the millions and millions of lies that he had already committed)
You're the only one who seems to know the answer here. Help us out!
Mozart
The (un)clear answer is: Find the lie needs questioning yourself of what you are believing in.
A more clear answer is to find out the values what is behind those lies and what results in a society how those values are executed among us human beings when mass behavior is included.
I'll ask one more time, more in hope than in expectation, about what you think about 'Brexit, the movie'. I realise it and the link I posted above confront your prejudices, but if you're going to close your mind to any argument that's difficult to deal with we can't engage in any meaningful debate. There's no rush to reply. I'd rather you watched it carefully, then replied, rather than with the usual knee-jerk stuff I've come to expect from you. PLEASE.
dozens of pages I won't read when you've already told me ad nauseam what you think of my 'nationalistic values', etc, anyway.
No it's not a silly answer. You're hiding something which I will not do because I live in a real world and need to confront those realities in my daily work as well. (I've also been to UK for over 5 months both working and on two holidays travelling around, also visiting Brighton back in 1995 but I recall not driving the A23.) Simply, I don't believe of what you have written in your post about your origins and whereabouts. Try to be a better and a real person in this forum as well, will you?
A question: How does one (anyone) build a 'Common Foreign and Security Policy'? You are referring to some historical events which have had to go through thorough and long lasting struggles within a specified region how such a political and military force is build in general, don't you? So, should I bring some information to you from the history books how did the Britain <or replace your current country here> you know of today was born and how it did manage to come up to such a concept as a British <or replace your current country here> Army and other national security institutions within that region?
If you want opinions/viewpoints to larger issues you're telling in your post(s), stop lying in them. Be a real human.
Because you yourself are already telling the realities of yourself what you have become as a person with very limited willingness to 'droning other viewpoints', what makes you think the source of all the nationalism which was the reality in Europe (because Europe discovered it in the first place) is this re-emerged nationalism also an answer to the question of globalism which is also majorly the modern reality of the history of Europe (by the invention of the USA and it's own Foreign Policies, especially after WW2 era)? To me, this re-emerged nationalism is just a very stupid and the most wrong one defense mechanism because it does not solve anything at all. It can just postpone some issues for a while which we humans need to face anyway at some point.
So, after all your "nationalistic" hubris, how do you think the Britain will be able to handle the rest of multi-polar world, where nationalism doesn't really account too much, because we have already competitions between continents (geographical and/or cultural)? Will it rely on its colonial past as it seems to be relying to?
We'll have to disagree on the worth of your views. I'm not hiding anything and I have given you no grounds to think I am. You could try being a better person yourself. A better person would not make daft accusations without reasonable grounds for doing so and you have none. And as for the 'stop lying ... be a real human' stuff, you are being obnoxious, offensive and immature, but if you truly disbelieve me that's really not my problem.
You should ask the EU how it's building its Common Foreign and Security Policy. It is the EU which says member states have committed themselves to one. (Please see the link I provided on 19 July from the European External Action Service.) It's a bit pointless spending millions of euros of European taxpayers money if they don't know how to go about it, don't you think? One thing we do know about the EU's ambitions is that it favours expanding the EU's borders eastwards. Doesn't that worry you at all? If Turkey ever joins, it will put the EU's borders up against some very unstable countries.
Whenever British politicians are asked about any form of European integration they just deny it will ever happen, so it would be a waste of time asking them.
I understand British history without the need for your take on it. but you can still 'bring' whatever you wish whatever I think, and I'm perfectly willing to consider sensible views ... I've just grown a little weary of considering yours over the last few years.
I was curious as to what think of Brexit The Movie (not what you think of your own warped interpretation of it but the real issues it deals with). I've asked you twice. Have you even watched it? I'm not sure why you didn't strip the video out of your message. It might as well not as not have been there for all the attention you appear to have paid to it.
Believing that the EU does not act in UK citizens interests does not mean even slightly malignant nationalism has re-ermerged. Restoring UK democracy is a first step to getting the best out of globalisation for the UK. The EU gets the worst out of it, whilst ensuring that its officials and politicians are protected from it of course. You see it very differently, I know, and I have no problem with you supporting the EU. That's your choice.
To me, this post democratic age, in which the EU is a major player, is extremely stupid and and solves nothing. Some of us humans have already faced it and have voted to leave its malign rules, so that we can hold our own squirming, lying politicians to account the better for it.
Britian is one of the largest trading nations in the world and will be able to deal with the rest of the world as any other independent country does. It does of course depend on the electorate here choosing politicians who are willing to meet that challenge, but that's our problem, not yours.
Wow. Had a very busy week, back and forth from UK and CH/IT to take care of a few things this blessed Brexit caused.
Well, well, didja take notes while in Switzerland on how a non-EU member can cope working/living in a Brexit world? (see, this ain't so bad...!) If the Swiss can do it, so can you! They figured it, and you can too! Right? With me here?
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I feel sorry for the ones who were manipulated to pull the UK out of the EU .... most of them are the ones who will feel the financial pain most. The manipulators are well cushioned and, as ever, will be landing on their feet while the manipulated will begin to wonder in about six months or less what the hell hit them. Farmers are already asking where the yearly 3Billion pounds they were getting from the EU will now come from ... and that's just one. Scientists are another very worried group ...
Manipulated? by whom? And ALL of those silly "global warming" scientists SHOULD be worried about where their next pay check is coming from. Right? Right! They should all go and find themselves proper jobs, something to do with real science.
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WAM? Are you getting somewhat confused? Surely not. Not you. Never. Let's see. Your video (BTW, you know who put that video together, right? Of course you do ) and your post above don't match.
Was it Goebbels? Was it he and Leni Riefenstahl behind that propaganda video? Who'd a thought!
Let's watch this video again together, shall we? Grab a snifter of cognac, put your feet up and watch the video.
When you've done that please reserve some time if you can. I would like you to meet some of my friends from Eastern Europe. They have a pretty good idea about sovereignty and lack thereof.
Yes, and I have a lot of friends in Eastern Europe as well. They think the EU is complete bollocks. A monstrosity of insanity the likes of which the world has never seen before. Orwellian. Faceless bureaucrats given the power to make legislation behind closed doors to the detriment of millions of innocent people. "We will decide for the common good...!" Accountable to no one. Wizard of Oz kinda stuff. Who is that man behind the curtain?
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Anyway WAM. Am heartened to see you care about what's going on in the old continent. Should you wish to know how decisions are taken in the EU, how MEPs are elected, how the EU parliament works, the relationship between the EU Parliament and the sovereign EU governments, do let me know. I am lucky to have four MEPs as friends, from three different countries. As I say, let me know.
Well, the next time you see your MEP's ask them what they do for a living? Ask them how much money they make! Ask them what happens to all of that money from confiscatory taxation go to? A trillion dollar budget, ...for what again? Have them watch that Brexit video (see above) and write-down their comments. Ask them about those "spectacular" GDP growth rates the current EU is enjoying as a result of their efforts. Ask them about how millions of undocumented immigrants are allowed to wander around the EU without any plan of repatriation. Ask them to buy you lunch the next time you meet with them. Believe me, they can afford it!
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There again, you can simply rely on the guys who made that video. Hey, your choice.
Or you can rely on the so-called journalists to be advocates for all of the boys and girls who are MEP's. Is Cristine Amanpour a member of the North Korean news delegation? I dunno. If she ever gets fired from her "job" at CNN, she can always find a friendly ear over there in Pyongyang. The Great Leader is always right! The EU is always right! No hard questions here,.e.g, such as if you guys are so smart howz come the GDP of the Eurozone is lower than all of the rest of the world, and the taxation the highest? Maybe Ms. Amanpour could ask that of Mr. Hannon. He would have a good answer for that. He knows. I know. The EU is Orwellian insanity. It is killing Europe, by the day, by the month and the years. That's what good journalists do, look at all of the angles to a problem, not take the party line.
I cannot point to worse, more despicable example of advocacy journalism than this video below.
Finally, we gotcha! We've put all of Europe in a tither. The bureaucrats in Brussels are nervous, scared. The gravy-train is being scrutinized. Questions are being asked. What EXACTLY are you doing with all the money that we are sending you? Who made these silly laws, and when was the vote? Who are you people? Now, my beloved Austria will vote again. I'll betcha we get em in October! Scare the hell out of em. People are no longer afraid of being called a Nazi for simply wanting their countries back. Get rid of the rules, the stupid regulations. Give HOPE for the young. Make them entrepreneurs. Encourage them with a deregulated economy. No silly laws. Reduce taxation by one half. Start over. The EU should be abolished, and all of the so-called diplomats, MEPS and bureaucrats should be sent home. Go. Leave. Write when you find real work.
Finally, there is joy! We gotcha! No one saw this coming.
Sing it Al Bano! ..... Felicita...! Happiness, ...happiness...!
The (un)clear answer is: Find the lie needs questioning yourself of what you are believing in.
A more clear answer is to find out the values what is behind those lies and what results in a society how those values are executed among us human beings when mass behavior is included.
Should I write in Finnish? Would that help? One lie, ...just one....!
Should I write in Finnish? Would that help? One lie, ...just one....!
Mozart
To whom are you writing and why are you writing to other persons in a single post?
If you are hearing voices in your head, I would instruct you to sign in to mental health care, be it private one or included in the "Obamacare" which you "True Americans love so much" (being sarcastic here).
So you're again acting 100% according to these nationalists, who keep bringing out these EXTREMELY simplified views of the world and a country, like Switzerland, without the ability to really start to discuss about the history of those countries. You have the mentality of a Basic Finn as well (and a few other smaller nationalistic political parties we have in this country.)
So, in basic, you would like me to try to find the posts of Boris Johnson, which I've read in my visits to England and happening to read his posts throughout the years? Basic human behaviour doesn't mean anything to you, does it? If a person tells a lie, you need to discuss about it in extreme details, regardless of what kind of lie we are talking about, who says it, where the person is from, what's his message, how lies in general are made because the of same values regardless of national identities, don't you? http://qz.com/717412/boris-johnsons-telegraph-column-on-brexit-is-made-of-lies-half-truths-omissions-and-magical-thinking/
Same story with this Nigel Farage weirdo, who is basically not a British person but equally the very existance of a Basic Finn is his values, mentality, "sense of humour" (which is far from being the very concept of humour because of his irrational behaviour). All these characteristics of this political phenomenon known as UKIP in UK is extremely close to that of the Basic Finns in Finland. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-good-morning-britain-eu-referendum-brexit-350-nhs_uk_576d0aa3e4b08d2c5638fc17
W A Mozart, maybe you be starting to wear those diapers again, eh? Try to be more a real person than you are now. Or, if you have real psychological problems in your life, start admitting those problems to people in this forum. It might be able to help you in your daily life.
Should I write in Finnish? Would that help? One lie, ...just one....!
Mozart
To whom are you writing and why are you writing to other persons in a single post?
If you are hearing voices in your head, I would instruct you to sign in to mental health care, be it private one or included in the "Obamacare" which you "True Americans love so much" (being sarcastic here).
So you're again acting 100% according to these nationalists, who keep bringing out these EXTREMELY simplified views of the world and a country, like Switzerland, without the ability to really start to discuss about the history of those countries. You have the mentality of a Basic Finn as well (and a few other smaller nationalistic political parties we have in this country.)
So, in basic, you would like me to try to find the posts of Boris Johnson, which I've read in my visits to England and happening to read his posts throughout the years? Basic human behaviour doesn't mean anything to you, does it? If a person tells a lie, you need to discuss about it in extreme details, regardless of what kind of lie we are talking about, who says it, where the person is from, what's his message, how lies in general are made because the of same values regardless of national identities, don't you? http://qz.com/717412/boris-johnsons-telegraph-column-on-brexit-is-made-of-lies-half-truths-omissions-and-magical-thinking/
Same story with this Nigel Farage weirdo, who is basically not a British person but equally the very existance of a Basic Finn is his values, mentality, "sense of humour" (which is far from being the very concept of humour because of his irrational behaviour). All these characteristics of this political phenomenon known as UKIP in UK is extremely close to that of the Basic Finns in Finland. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-good-morning-britain-eu-referendum-brexit-350-nhs_uk_576d0aa3e4b08d2c5638fc17
W A Mozart, maybe you be starting to wear those diapers again, eh? Try to be more a real person than you are now. Or, if you have real psychological problems in your life, start admitting those problems to people in this forum. It might be able to help you in your daily life.
Leave campaigners would have loved you to campaign for the remain side.
And I disagreed with what Farage said about the £350m for the NHS. It was perfectlly reasonable to suggest ways in which the savings on our EU membership fees could be used in this country. The leave campaign wasn't and isn't the government and suggest was all it could do. That's why it stands by what was said during the campaign.
Farage, with no apparent suicidal thoughts. In this interview you'll be pleased to hear him talk about helping other independence movements in the EU.
I'm still waiting to hear what you think of Brexit the Movie.
Or if you can't cope with its message, here's another, much shorter video you might find easier to understand:
You're answering as if the US way of handling its policies is the only possible way, right? So how does the US change is policies and which policies you are referring to? Domestic and/or foreign ones? Do you mean the foreign policy of the US has a possibility to change every 4 years, even though the current US doctrine is derived from the WW2 era and the aftermath?
Any kind of "common European foreign policy" will not come true for a while yet as the NATO is involved in the majority of the European countries and the most of national leaders do not want to start a rivalry defence organization at this time (although there could have been an opportunity to start in the last decade when NATO was in trouble).
Because the EU was itself built upon avoiding war waging with the European regions, I just don't see that the EU would become just another force with the basics of any kind of traditional empire. The 2 world wars did teach Europe something but there are still these nationalistic people and forces who want to believe it will solve "all the problems in the world (and their personal lives - even psychologically)".
I don't believer Boris Johnson is capable of keep acting his according to his traditional character as being all against the EU. He needs to be in charge of his position and keep his word to whom he is dealing with. He can't lie any more to the colleagues he needs to deal with but needs to face them face-to-face of the very persons he's been judging against (by telling thousands of lies). Otherwise, it will backfire to the English citizens, causing much more millions of British people misery if trying to play too much games with the realities of the forces existing in this changed world with the globalísm as a reality and British Empire gone. Brexit means Brexit. British people needs to deal with it and try to rely on the WW2 era not existing any longer.
"You're answering as if the US way of handling its policies is the only possible way, right? ..."
Wrong. I'm not interested in any ruling body which is not democratic, and to you that equates to 'must want to do things the American way'? That's quite an impressive but groundless leap in logic you've made there.
The Common Foreign and Security policy (CFSP) is already 'true' and it's evolving under the European External Action Service - link below, but you can stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't if it makes you feel better. Even if it doesn't evolve soon, do you think we should hang around just in case it isn't an expensive xxxx up like most other things the EU gets its claws into?
European integration has been the dream of European nationalists for hundreds of years, even the UK's own resident fascist, Sir Oswald Mosley, wanted a united Europe, but their dream has been turned into reality for the betterment of politicians, bureaucrats, bankers and multinationals, though a few crumbs have been thrown to the plebs. EU supporters have some odd ideas about what leavers want from Brexit. (And globalism is a reality; it really isn't in dispute. That's just a non sequitur you've slipped in.)
The Prime Minister is in charge of Johnson's position, and you're free to distrust him, even though you can't vote for or against him, but what lies has Johnson told? Please don't refer back to your list of Euromyths from the EC unless you can be more specific. He certainly wasn't responsible for all those. He didn't even work for the majority of those sources! For every 'lie' you can produce I can produce more from EU supporters. You see, all politicians do lie. It's laughable that EU supporters whinge when their own lying tactics are used even mildly against them. (The remain camp even wheeled out one of our former prime ministers like he was some kind of wise elder statesman. He is anything but, having been a huge EU supporter and even wanted Russia to join, and the UK to join the euro. He tried to promote a moral vision for the UK while, it later transpired, that he'd been having an affair with one of his own colleagues!)
I very much hope that Brexit means Brexit, and British people will deal with it, though our duplicitious political class might feel differently and try to avoid Brexiting for as long as they possibly can. If that happens, you can be sure this will rumble on and on. No one wants that, so I hope politicians accept Brexit as the reality. And the idea that we leavers want the WW2 (or Empire) era back, or that we expect Brexiting will put everything right are more of those odd ideas you EU supporters psychologically cling to.
I'll ask one more time, more in hope than in expectation, about what you think about 'Brexit, the movie'. I realise it and the link I posted above confront your prejudices, but if you're going to close your mind to any argument that's difficult to deal with we can't engage in any meaningful debate. There's no rush to reply. I'd rather you watched it carefully, then replied, rather than with the usual knee-jerk stuff I've come to expect from you. PLEASE.
Pretty propagandistic movie based on the few hundreds years old value of nationalism. Random thoughs while watching this movie:
This movie didn't bring any new news to me. It falls to the same old pits of pointing simplistic views of how the majority of nationalists think without the ability to question ANYTHING of themselves nor the values of which they are representing of. It is the very value of nationalism of which this movie is about - and the EU itself is a victim of this nationalism as well.
I've already referred to indirect democracy (regarding European Commission), which is part of this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_democracy MEPs are directly elected by the people. European Parliament has the mandate to dismiss the Commission. Why they have not done so? MEPs are representatives of the people. Us - the people - are to blame on this. Remember, we have democracies in Europe to select the people to represent us both in the national parliaments and in the EP. Do remember that none of these structures are absolute solid, which can't be changed. All political structures can be changed when there's enough will to do so in western cultures. The EU can always be better but it is still at the mercy of the member states and their own political decisions.
Why is Germany also now the economic power in the EU and also globally? It wasn't so back at the turn of the millenia. This movie doesn't give a *uck about such changes in the global economy nor what individual countries did to change their course.
This movie still doesn't take into consideration the already changed world of globalism. It quickly passes the very real problems of what globalism is all about and what it requires from all of anyone who wants to be a game player in the global world.
The message of this movie: The EU is the scapegoat for all historical and political wrongdoings of the <choose your nation here> people and politicians themselves, and the scapegoat for all the personal problems of the too nationalistic, for the too lost in history and for the psychologically too incapable of understanding anything of the global world and the realities of this world we are facing considering the history of each country.
This movie also denounces the very existence of European continent (the concept of Europe as a continent is roughly derived from the 8th century but greatly expanded in the 16th century - often violently), why it has brought such a controversial isms, values and realities: Because no else had the will. This history has also determined the world we see today with all the economical foundations based on that history. BUT, it is this continent ONLY, which has the ideological power to change the values in the entire world. The USA has had its influence in the global economy, especially after WW2 - but just repeating European history.
So, barriers in the world. Which is better in today's global world: National borders or multi-polar borders? It's nationalism against multipolarism facing globalism. Is this too complicated for you to understand, uh?
This movie tries to make the mockery of the billions of things which are wrong in the world existing today. The EU is the scapegoat for those things because it questions the very existence of nationalism - which Europe itself discovered and now also questions itself.
I would choose multipolarism and globalism as realities any day against the nationalism because I'm not stuck into the history of nationalism. Multipolarism is rather a natural way of the development of human cultures towards globalism because we - the western countries - have made it possible with the technological advances.
The only way to be influential enough in the world of multipolarism is to have enough power in multiple ways - out of which the EU stands for NOT having a true military power because most European countries rely too much on NATO.
Ah, Switzerland - the EU in miniature format as a federation, made out of 26 cantons and with 4 national languages... This is the wet dream of nationalists regardless of the realities of this world but omitting the history of it, including the close connections to Germany of the 1930's. Nobody has ever been able to continue further discussions when bringing up these realities - no matter how I personally feel about Switzerland (have driven through the country back in the mid 1990's).
There are such values presented in the video, such as "self confidence" which are rather the problems of the nationalists because their believes have been questioned by the EU and how it questions the very value of European discovered nationalism since the past centuries. This is rather a phenomenon of personal psychological problems of such persons rather than the problems of the EU structures.
So, the message of the Brexit is the US way - economy first. Nothing else matters in their lives. No other value except economy. This is rather the product of Thatcherism of the 1980's in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism
This video is the wet dream for the blind and stupid consumerists who do not have any other value except to consume more and more anything without any restrictions at all. Forget about the planet we're living in, forget about future generations, forget about climate issues, forget about limited amounts of life of what this planet is capable of sustaining, forget about anything living outside Britain's borders.
Now, let's see the movies of each of the EU and non-EU member countries' own bureaucratic national parliaments and how they actually work in real life. Well, what the heck - let's see the movies of all the countries existing in our planet - past, present and the future ones. Can you provide any such movie(s) of any country (past and/or present) in our planet?
BTW, Norway has brought out that it doesn't want to have a rival country from the Britain with the similar connections to the EU, so it might block the EFTA membership of Britain.
Surely, Britain can survive outside the EU, but at which cost? Maybe the population will diminish something like 10-20 million people in the longer term? London is likely to lose it's meaning of being the most important financial centre in the world. If this is the will of the British but with the beliefs of Thatcherism that they will prosper as a gold digger in the already multipolar and globalised world, then let them have it.
I would choose multipolarism and globalism as realities any day against the nationalism because I'm not stuck into the history of nationalism. Multipolarism is rather a natural way of the development of human cultures towards globalism because we - the western countries - have made it possible with the technological advances.
Your silly trust in "globalism" will result in the end of European civilization. How's that "open borders" policy working out for you guys? Having fun? All of your new neighbors fitting-in yet? I sincerely hope that half of all Syrian refugee's are camped next to your house in Finland. You can make them a Finnish breakfast in the morning. Show them how to prepare a herring dinner in the evening. I dunno. You could learn to speak Arabic as well. Maybe you can also teach them capitalism? That's why they're there, next to you, you know. They've failed utterly in constructing their own societies. Corruption. Graft. Dictatorships galore. No one knows how to build societies anymore. You Finns can teach them, ....right? Show em how it's done. If the rate of exodus continues from Middle Eastern and African countries, native Europeans will become a minority in their own countries. Germany, with their low growth rates, will be among the first.
What's the real problem with you 'globalists?' You fail to understand that most of Africa and the Middle East are economic failures. Big time. So, they are ALL headed your way. Your neighborhoods, your communities. All of Africa will be empty in about 20 years. Then what?
I would choose multipolarism and globalism as realities any day against the nationalism because I'm not stuck into the history of nationalism. Multipolarism is rather a natural way of the development of human cultures towards globalism because we - the western countries - have made it possible with the technological advances.
Your silly trust in "globalism" will result in the end of European civilization. How's that "open borders" policy working out for you guys? Having fun? All of your new neighbors fitting-in yet? I sincerely hope that half of all Syrian refugee's are camped next to your house in Finland. You can make them a Finnish breakfast in the morning. Show them how to prepare a herring dinner in the evening. I dunno. You could learn to speak Arabic as well. Maybe you can also teach them capitalism? That's why they're there, next to you, you know. They've failed utterly in constructing their own societies. Corruption. Graft. Dictatorships galore. No one knows how to build societies anymore. You Finns can teach them, ....right? Show em how it's done. If the rate of exodus continues from Middle Eastern and African countries, native Europeans will become a minority in their own countries. Germany, with their low growth rates, will be among the first.
What's the real problem with you 'globalists?' You fail to understand that most of Africa and the Middle East are economic failures. Big time. So, they are ALL headed your way. Your neighborhoods, your communities. All of Africa will be empty in about 20 years. Then what?
Multipolarism and globalism dines on democratic nations...The big banks , stock markets, and multinational corporations are getting fat...The will of the people will be snuffed out and we will turn to neofeudalism...What good is a European Union if it is destined to make the common man poorer and the rich richer ???...................
"You're answering as if the US way of handling its policies is the only possible way, right? ..."
Wrong. I'm not interested in any ruling body which is not democratic, and to you that equates to 'must want to do things the American way'? That's quite an impressive but groundless leap in logic you've made there.
The Common Foreign and Security policy (CFSP) is already 'true' and it's evolving under the European External Action Service - link below, but you can stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't if it makes you feel better. Even if it doesn't evolve soon, do you think we should hang around just in case it isn't an expensive xxxx up like most other things the EU gets its claws into?
European integration has been the dream of European nationalists for hundreds of years, even the UK's own resident fascist, Sir Oswald Mosley, wanted a united Europe, but their dream has been turned into reality for the betterment of politicians, bureaucrats, bankers and multinationals, though a few crumbs have been thrown to the plebs. EU supporters have some odd ideas about what leavers want from Brexit. (And globalism is a reality; it really isn't in dispute. That's just a non sequitur you've slipped in.)
The Prime Minister is in charge of Johnson's position, and you're free to distrust him, even though you can't vote for or against him, but what lies has Johnson told? Please don't refer back to your list of Euromyths from the EC unless you can be more specific. He certainly wasn't responsible for all those. He didn't even work for the majority of those sources! For every 'lie' you can produce I can produce more from EU supporters. You see, all politicians do lie. It's laughable that EU supporters whinge when their own lying tactics are used even mildly against them. (The remain camp even wheeled out one of our former prime ministers like he was some kind of wise elder statesman. He is anything but, having been a huge EU supporter and even wanted Russia to join, and the UK to join the euro. He tried to promote a moral vision for the UK while, it later transpired, that he'd been having an affair with one of his own colleagues!)
I very much hope that Brexit means Brexit, and British people will deal with it, though our duplicitious political class might feel differently and try to avoid Brexiting for as long as they possibly can. If that happens, you can be sure this will rumble on and on. No one wants that, so I hope politicians accept Brexit as the reality. And the idea that we leavers want the WW2 (or Empire) era back, or that we expect Brexiting will put everything right are more of those odd ideas you EU supporters psychologically cling to.
I'll ask one more time, more in hope than in expectation, about what you think about 'Brexit, the movie'. I realise it and the link I posted above confront your prejudices, but if you're going to close your mind to any argument that's difficult to deal with we can't engage in any meaningful debate. There's no rush to reply. I'd rather you watched it carefully, then replied, rather than with the usual knee-jerk stuff I've come to expect from you. PLEASE.
Pretty propagandistic movie based on the few hundreds years old value of nationalism. Random thoughs while watching this movie:
This movie didn't bring any new news to me. It falls to the same old pits of pointing simplistic views of how the majority of nationalists think without the ability to question ANYTHING of themselves nor the values of which they are representing of. It is the very value of nationalism of which this movie is about - and the EU itself is a victim of this nationalism as well.
I've already referred to indirect democracy (regarding European Commission), which is part of this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_democracy MEPs are directly elected by the people. European Parliament has the mandate to dismiss the Commission. Why they have not done so? MEPs are representatives of the people. Us - the people - are to blame on this. Remember, we have democracies in Europe to select the people to represent us both in the national parliaments and in the EP. Do remember that none of these structures are absolute solid, which can't be changed. All political structures can be changed when there's enough will to do so in western cultures. The EU can always be better but it is still at the mercy of the member states and their own political decisions.
Why is Germany also now the economic power in the EU and also globally? It wasn't so back at the turn of the millenia. This movie doesn't give a *uck about such changes in the global economy nor what individual countries did to change their course.
This movie still doesn't take into consideration the already changed world of globalism. It quickly passes the very real problems of what globalism is all about and what it requires from all of anyone who wants to be a game player in the global world.
The message of this movie: The EU is the scapegoat for all historical and political wrongdoings of the <choose your nation here> people and politicians themselves, and the scapegoat for all the personal problems of the too nationalistic, for the too lost in history and for the psychologically too incapable of understanding anything of the global world and the realities of this world we are facing considering the history of each country.
This movie also denounces the very existence of European continent (the concept of Europe as a continent is roughly derived from the 8th century but greatly expanded in the 16th century - often violently), why it has brought such a controversial isms, values and realities: Because no else had the will. This history has also determined the world we see today with all the economical foundations based on that history. BUT, it is this continent ONLY, which has the ideological power to change the values in the entire world. The USA has had its influence in the global economy, especially after WW2 - but just repeating European history.
So, barriers in the world. Which is better in today's global world: National borders or multi-polar borders? It's nationalism against multipolarism facing globalism. Is this too complicated for you to understand, uh?
This movie tries to make the mockery of the billions of things which are wrong in the world existing today. The EU is the scapegoat for those things because it questions the very existence of nationalism - which Europe itself discovered and now also questions itself.
I would choose multipolarism and globalism as realities any day against the nationalism because I'm not stuck into the history of nationalism. Multipolarism is rather a natural way of the development of human cultures towards globalism because we - the western countries - have made it possible with the technological advances.
The only way to be influential enough in the world of multipolarism is to have enough power in multiple ways - out of which the EU stands for NOT having a true military power because most European countries rely too much on NATO.
Ah, Switzerland - the EU in miniature format as a federation, made out of 26 cantons and with 4 national languages... This is the wet dream of nationalists regardless of the realities of this world but omitting the history of it, including the close connections to Germany of the 1930's. Nobody has ever been able to continue further discussions when bringing up these realities - no matter how I personally feel about Switzerland (have driven through the country back in the mid 1990's).
There are such values presented in the video, such as "self confidence" which are rather the problems of the nationalists because their believes have been questioned by the EU and how it questions the very value of European discovered nationalism since the past centuries. This is rather a phenomenon of personal psychological problems of such persons rather than the problems of the EU structures.
So, the message of the Brexit is the US way - economy first. Nothing else matters in their lives. No other value except economy. This is rather the product of Thatcherism of the 1980's in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism
This video is the wet dream for the blind and stupid consumerists who do not have any other value except to consume more and more anything without any restrictions at all. Forget about the planet we're living in, forget about future generations, forget about climate issues, forget about limited amounts of life of what this planet is capable of sustaining, forget about anything living outside Britain's borders.
Now, let's see the movies of each of the EU and non-EU member countries' own bureaucratic national parliaments and how they actually work in real life. Well, what the heck - let's see the movies of all the countries existing in our planet - past, present and the future ones. Can you provide any such movie(s) of any country (past and/or present) in our planet?
BTW, Norway has brought out that it doesn't want to have a rival country from the Britain with the similar connections to the EU, so it might block the EFTA membership of Britain.
Surely, Britain can survive outside the EU, but at which cost? Maybe the population will diminish something like 10-20 million people in the longer term? London is likely to lose it's meaning of being the most important financial centre in the world. If this is the will of the British but with the beliefs of Thatcherism that they will prosper as a gold digger in the already multipolar and globalised world, then let them have it.
What else do you have in mind?
I expected the usual knee jerk response from you and you didn't disappoint.
Are you afraid the EU will break up when the UK leaves?
Wow. Had a very busy week, back and forth from UK and CH/IT to take care of a few things this blessed Brexit caused.
Well, well, didja take notes while in Switzerland on how a non-EU member can cope working/living in a Brexit world? (see, this ain't so bad...!) If the Swiss can do it, so can you! They figured it, and you can too! Right? With me here?
Quote:
I feel sorry for the ones who were manipulated to pull the UK out of the EU .... most of them are the ones who will feel the financial pain most. The manipulators are well cushioned and, as ever, will be landing on their feet while the manipulated will begin to wonder in about six months or less what the hell hit them. Farmers are already asking where the yearly 3Billion pounds they were getting from the EU will now come from ... and that's just one. Scientists are another very worried group ...
Manipulated? by whom? And ALL of those silly "global warming" scientists SHOULD be worried about where their next pay check is coming from. Right? Right! They should all go and find themselves proper jobs, something to do with real science.
Quote:
WAM? Are you getting somewhat confused? Surely not. Not you. Never. Let's see. Your video (BTW, you know who put that video together, right? Of course you do ) and your post above don't match.
Was it Goebbels? Was it he and Leni Riefenstahl behind that propaganda video? Who'd a thought!
Let's watch this video again together, shall we? Grab a snifter of cognac, put your feet up and watch the video.
When you've done that please reserve some time if you can. I would like you to meet some of my friends from Eastern Europe. They have a pretty good idea about sovereignty and lack thereof.
Yes, and I have a lot of friends in Eastern Europe as well. They think the EU is complete bollocks. A monstrosity of insanity the likes of which the world has never seen before. Orwellian. Faceless bureaucrats given the power to make legislation behind closed doors to the detriment of millions of innocent people. "We will decide for the common good...!" Accountable to no one. Wizard of Oz kinda stuff. Who is that man behind the curtain?
Quote:
Anyway WAM. Am heartened to see you care about what's going on in the old continent. Should you wish to know how decisions are taken in the EU, how MEPs are elected, how the EU parliament works, the relationship between the EU Parliament and the sovereign EU governments, do let me know. I am lucky to have four MEPs as friends, from three different countries. As I say, let me know.
Well, the next time you see your MEP's ask them what they do for a living? Ask them how much money they make! Ask them what happens to all of that money from confiscatory taxation go to? A trillion dollar budget, ...for what again? Have them watch that Brexit video (see above) and write-down their comments. Ask them about those "spectacular" GDP growth rates the current EU is enjoying as a result of their efforts. Ask them about how millions of undocumented immigrants are allowed to wander around the EU without any plan of repatriation. Ask them to buy you lunch the next time you meet with them. Believe me, they can afford it!
Quote:
There again, you can simply rely on the guys who made that video. Hey, your choice.
Or you can rely on the so-called journalists to be advocates for all of the boys and girls who are MEP's. Is Cristine Amanpour a member of the North Korean news delegation? I dunno. If she ever gets fired from her "job" at CNN, she can always find a friendly ear over there in Pyongyang. The Great Leader is always right! The EU is always right! No hard questions here,.e.g, such as if you guys are so smart howz come the GDP of the Eurozone is lower than all of the rest of the world, and the taxation the highest? Maybe Ms. Amanpour could ask that of Mr. Hannon. He would have a good answer for that. He knows. I know. The EU is Orwellian insanity. It is killing Europe, by the day, by the month and the years. That's what good journalists do, look at all of the angles to a problem, not take the party line.
I cannot point to worse, more despicable example of advocacy journalism than this video below.
Finally, we gotcha! We've put all of Europe in a tither. The bureaucrats in Brussels are nervous, scared. The gravy-train is being scrutinized. Questions are being asked. What EXACTLY are you doing with all the money that we are sending you? Who made these silly laws, and when was the vote? Who are you people? Now, my beloved Austria will vote again. I'll betcha we get em in October! Scare the hell out of em. People are no longer afraid of being called a Nazi for simply wanting their countries back. Get rid of the rules, the stupid regulations. Give HOPE for the young. Make them entrepreneurs. Encourage them with a deregulated economy. No silly laws. Reduce taxation by one half. Start over. The EU should be abolished, and all of the so-called diplomats, MEPS and bureaucrats should be sent home. Go. Leave. Write when you find real work.
Finally, there is joy! We gotcha! No one saw this coming.
Sing it Al Bano! ..... Felicita...! Happiness, ...happiness...!
The (un)clear answer is: Find the lie needs questioning yourself of what you are believing in.
A more clear answer is to find out the values what is behind those lies and what results in a society how those values are executed among us human beings when mass behavior is included.
Should I write in Finnish? Would that help? One lie, ...just one....!
Mozart
First, watch the Brexit film clip just one more time...
The friggen head of the EU advocates "no borders" for Europe. Stunning. Unfreakingbelievable. I mean, like, WTF...!
Quote:
'Borders are the worst invention ever!' EU chief Jean-Claude Juncker widens rift with European leaders as he calls for open borders Juncker risks widening splits with EU leaders with contentious remarks Says borders should be scrapped despite migrant rush and terror attacks Insists a stronger EU is best way to combating rising trend in nationalism By MATT DATHAN, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR MAILONLINE PUBLISHED: 07:06 EST, 22 August 2016 | UPDATED: 11:02 EST, 22 August 2016
Wrong. I'm not interested in any ruling body which is not democratic, and to you that equates to 'must want to do things the American way'? That's quite an impressive but groundless leap in logic you've made there.
The Common Foreign and Security policy (CFSP) is already 'true' and it's evolving under the European External Action Service - link below, but you can stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't if it makes you feel better. Even if it doesn't evolve soon, do you think we should hang around just in case it isn't an expensive xxxx up like most other things the EU gets its claws into?
European integration has been the dream of European nationalists for hundreds of years, even the UK's own resident fascist, Sir Oswald Mosley, wanted a united Europe, but their dream has been turned into reality for the betterment of politicians, bureaucrats, bankers and multinationals, though a few crumbs have been thrown to the plebs. EU supporters have some odd ideas about what leavers want from Brexit. (And globalism is a reality; it really isn't in dispute. That's just a non sequitur you've slipped in.)
The Prime Minister is in charge of Johnson's position, and you're free to distrust him, even though you can't vote for or against him, but what lies has Johnson told? Please don't refer back to your list of Euromyths from the EC unless you can be more specific. He certainly wasn't responsible for all those. He didn't even work for the majority of those sources! For every 'lie' you can produce I can produce more from EU supporters. You see, all politicians do lie. It's laughable that EU supporters whinge when their own lying tactics are used even mildly against them. (The remain camp even wheeled out one of our former prime ministers like he was some kind of wise elder statesman. He is anything but, having been a huge EU supporter and even wanted Russia to join, and the UK to join the euro. He tried to promote a moral vision for the UK while, it later transpired, that he'd been having an affair with one of his own colleagues!)
I very much hope that Brexit means Brexit, and British people will deal with it, though our duplicitious political class might feel differently and try to avoid Brexiting for as long as they possibly can. If that happens, you can be sure this will rumble on and on. No one wants that, so I hope politicians accept Brexit as the reality. And the idea that we leavers want the WW2 (or Empire) era back, or that we expect Brexiting will put everything right are more of those odd ideas you EU supporters psychologically cling to.
I'll ask one more time, more in hope than in expectation, about what you think about 'Brexit, the movie'. I realise it and the link I posted above confront your prejudices, but if you're going to close your mind to any argument that's difficult to deal with we can't engage in any meaningful debate. There's no rush to reply. I'd rather you watched it carefully, then replied, rather than with the usual knee-jerk stuff I've come to expect from you. PLEASE.
Pretty propagandistic movie based on the few hundreds years old value of nationalism. Random thoughs while watching this movie:
This movie didn't bring any new news to me. It falls to the same old pits of pointing simplistic views of how the majority of nationalists think without the ability to question ANYTHING of themselves nor the values of which they are representing of. It is the very value of nationalism of which this movie is about - and the EU itself is a victim of this nationalism as well.
I've already referred to indirect democracy (regarding European Commission), which is part of this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_democracy MEPs are directly elected by the people. European Parliament has the mandate to dismiss the Commission. Why they have not done so? MEPs are representatives of the people. Us - the people - are to blame on this. Remember, we have democracies in Europe to select the people to represent us both in the national parliaments and in the EP. Do remember that none of these structures are absolute solid, which can't be changed. All political structures can be changed when there's enough will to do so in western cultures. The EU can always be better but it is still at the mercy of the member states and their own political decisions.
Why is Germany also now the economic power in the EU and also globally? It wasn't so back at the turn of the millenia. This movie doesn't give a *uck about such changes in the global economy nor what individual countries did to change their course.
This movie still doesn't take into consideration the already changed world of globalism. It quickly passes the very real problems of what globalism is all about and what it requires from all of anyone who wants to be a game player in the global world.
The message of this movie: The EU is the scapegoat for all historical and political wrongdoings of the <choose your nation here> people and politicians themselves, and the scapegoat for all the personal problems of the too nationalistic, for the too lost in history and for the psychologically too incapable of understanding anything of the global world and the realities of this world we are facing considering the history of each country.
This movie also denounces the very existence of European continent (the concept of Europe as a continent is roughly derived from the 8th century but greatly expanded in the 16th century - often violently), why it has brought such a controversial isms, values and realities: Because no else had the will. This history has also determined the world we see today with all the economical foundations based on that history. BUT, it is this continent ONLY, which has the ideological power to change the values in the entire world. The USA has had its influence in the global economy, especially after WW2 - but just repeating European history.
So, barriers in the world. Which is better in today's global world: National borders or multi-polar borders? It's nationalism against multipolarism facing globalism. Is this too complicated for you to understand, uh?
This movie tries to make the mockery of the billions of things which are wrong in the world existing today. The EU is the scapegoat for those things because it questions the very existence of nationalism - which Europe itself discovered and now also questions itself.
I would choose multipolarism and globalism as realities any day against the nationalism because I'm not stuck into the history of nationalism. Multipolarism is rather a natural way of the development of human cultures towards globalism because we - the western countries - have made it possible with the technological advances.
The only way to be influential enough in the world of multipolarism is to have enough power in multiple ways - out of which the EU stands for NOT having a true military power because most European countries rely too much on NATO.
Ah, Switzerland - the EU in miniature format as a federation, made out of 26 cantons and with 4 national languages... This is the wet dream of nationalists regardless of the realities of this world but omitting the history of it, including the close connections to Germany of the 1930's. Nobody has ever been able to continue further discussions when bringing up these realities - no matter how I personally feel about Switzerland (have driven through the country back in the mid 1990's).
There are such values presented in the video, such as "self confidence" which are rather the problems of the nationalists because their believes have been questioned by the EU and how it questions the very value of European discovered nationalism since the past centuries. This is rather a phenomenon of personal psychological problems of such persons rather than the problems of the EU structures.
So, the message of the Brexit is the US way - economy first. Nothing else matters in their lives. No other value except economy. This is rather the product of Thatcherism of the 1980's in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism
This video is the wet dream for the blind and stupid consumerists who do not have any other value except to consume more and more anything without any restrictions at all. Forget about the planet we're living in, forget about future generations, forget about climate issues, forget about limited amounts of life of what this planet is capable of sustaining, forget about anything living outside Britain's borders.
Now, let's see the movies of each of the EU and non-EU member countries' own bureaucratic national parliaments and how they actually work in real life. Well, what the heck - let's see the movies of all the countries existing in our planet - past, present and the future ones. Can you provide any such movie(s) of any country (past and/or present) in our planet?
BTW, Norway has brought out that it doesn't want to have a rival country from the Britain with the similar connections to the EU, so it might block the EFTA membership of Britain.
Surely, Britain can survive outside the EU, but at which cost? Maybe the population will diminish something like 10-20 million people in the longer term? London is likely to lose it's meaning of being the most important financial centre in the world. If this is the will of the British but with the beliefs of Thatcherism that they will prosper as a gold digger in the already multipolar and globalised world, then let them have it.
What else do you have in mind?
I expected the usual knee jerk response from you and you didn't disappoint.
Are you afraid the EU will break up when the UK leaves?
So, I've fulfilled your several requests on commenting on the Brexit issue.
Please, watch completely both of these videos (much shorter than the whole movie) and give your own opinions on what these normal intelligent commentators are saying.
The friggen head of the EU advocates "no borders" for Europe. Stunning. Unfreakingbelievable. I mean, like, WTF...!
Quote:
'Borders are the worst invention ever!' EU chief Jean-Claude Juncker widens rift with European leaders as he calls for open borders Juncker risks widening splits with EU leaders with contentious remarks Says borders should be scrapped despite migrant rush and terror attacks Insists a stronger EU is best way to combating rising trend in nationalism By MATT DATHAN, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR MAILONLINE PUBLISHED: 07:06 EST, 22 August 2016 | UPDATED: 11:02 EST, 22 August 2016
Wrong. I'm not interested in any ruling body which is not democratic, and to you that equates to 'must want to do things the American way'? That's quite an impressive but groundless leap in logic you've made there.
The Common Foreign and Security policy (CFSP) is already 'true' and it's evolving under the European External Action Service - link below, but you can stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't if it makes you feel better. Even if it doesn't evolve soon, do you think we should hang around just in case it isn't an expensive xxxx up like most other things the EU gets its claws into?
European integration has been the dream of European nationalists for hundreds of years, even the UK's own resident fascist, Sir Oswald Mosley, wanted a united Europe, but their dream has been turned into reality for the betterment of politicians, bureaucrats, bankers and multinationals, though a few crumbs have been thrown to the plebs. EU supporters have some odd ideas about what leavers want from Brexit. (And globalism is a reality; it really isn't in dispute. That's just a non sequitur you've slipped in.)
The Prime Minister is in charge of Johnson's position, and you're free to distrust him, even though you can't vote for or against him, but what lies has Johnson told? Please don't refer back to your list of Euromyths from the EC unless you can be more specific. He certainly wasn't responsible for all those. He didn't even work for the majority of those sources! For every 'lie' you can produce I can produce more from EU supporters. You see, all politicians do lie. It's laughable that EU supporters whinge when their own lying tactics are used even mildly against them. (The remain camp even wheeled out one of our former prime ministers like he was some kind of wise elder statesman. He is anything but, having been a huge EU supporter and even wanted Russia to join, and the UK to join the euro. He tried to promote a moral vision for the UK while, it later transpired, that he'd been having an affair with one of his own colleagues!)
I very much hope that Brexit means Brexit, and British people will deal with it, though our duplicitious political class might feel differently and try to avoid Brexiting for as long as they possibly can. If that happens, you can be sure this will rumble on and on. No one wants that, so I hope politicians accept Brexit as the reality. And the idea that we leavers want the WW2 (or Empire) era back, or that we expect Brexiting will put everything right are more of those odd ideas you EU supporters psychologically cling to.
I'll ask one more time, more in hope than in expectation, about what you think about 'Brexit, the movie'. I realise it and the link I posted above confront your prejudices, but if you're going to close your mind to any argument that's difficult to deal with we can't engage in any meaningful debate. There's no rush to reply. I'd rather you watched it carefully, then replied, rather than with the usual knee-jerk stuff I've come to expect from you. PLEASE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_democracy MEPs are directly elected by the people. European Parliament has the mandate to dismiss the Commission. Why they have not done so? MEPs are representatives of the people. Us - the people - are to blame on this. Remember, we have democracies in Europe to select the people to represent us both in the national parliaments and in the EP. Do remember that none of these structures are absolute solid, which can't be changed. All political structures can be changed when there's enough will to do so in western cultures. The EU can always be better but it is still at the mercy of the member states and their own political decisions.
Why is Germany also now the economic power in the EU and also globally? It wasn't so back at the turn of the millenia. This movie doesn't give a *uck about such changes in the global economy nor what individual countries did to change their course.
This movie still doesn't take into consideration the already changed world of globalism. It quickly passes the very real problems of what globalism is all about and what it requires from all of anyone who wants to be a game player in the global world.
The message of this movie: The EU is the scapegoat for all historical and political wrongdoings of the <choose your nation here> people and politicians themselves, and the scapegoat for all the personal problems of the too nationalistic, for the too lost in history and for the psychologically too incapable of understanding anything of the global world and the realities of this world we are facing considering the history of each country.
This movie also denounces the very existence of European continent (the concept of Europe as a continent is roughly derived from the 8th century but greatly expanded in the 16th century - often violently), why it has brought such a controversial isms, values and realities: Because no else had the will. This history has also determined the world we see today with all the economical foundations based on that history. BUT, it is this continent ONLY, which has the ideological power to change the values in the entire world. The USA has had its influence in the global economy, especially after WW2 - but just repeating European history.
So, barriers in the world. Which is better in today's global world: National borders or multi-polar borders? It's nationalism against multipolarism facing globalism. Is this too complicated for you to understand, uh?
This movie tries to make the mockery of the billions of things which are wrong in the world existing today. The EU is the scapegoat for those things because it questions the very existence of nationalism - which Europe itself discovered and now also questions itself.
I would choose multipolarism and globalism as realities any day against the nationalism because I'm not stuck into the history of nationalism. Multipolarism is rather a natural way of the development of human cultures towards globalism because we - the western countries - have made it possible with the technological advances.
The only way to be influential enough in the world of multipolarism is to have enough power in multiple ways - out of which the EU stands for NOT having a true military power because most European countries rely too much on NATO.
Ah, Switzerland - the EU in miniature format as a federation, made out of 26 cantons and with 4 national languages... This is the wet dream of nationalists regardless of the realities of this world but omitting the history of it, including the close connections to Germany of the 1930's. Nobody has ever been able to continue further discussions when bringing up these realities - no matter how I personally feel about Switzerland (have driven through the country back in the mid 1990's).
There are such values presented in the video, such as "self confidence" which are rather the problems of the nationalists because their believes have been questioned by the EU and how it questions the very value of European discovered nationalism since the past centuries. This is rather a phenomenon of personal psychological problems of such persons rather than the problems of the EU structures.
So, the message of the Brexit is the US way - economy first. Nothing else matters in their lives. No other value except economy. This is rather the product of Thatcherism of the 1980's in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism
This video is the wet dream for the blind and stupid consumerists who do not have any other value except to consume more and more anything without any restrictions at all. Forget about the planet we're living in, forget about future generations, forget about climate issues, forget about limited amounts of life of what this planet is capable of sustaining, forget about anything living outside Britain's borders.
Now, let's see the movies of each of the EU and non-EU member countries' own bureaucratic national parliaments and how they actually work in real life. Well, what the heck - let's see the movies of all the countries existing in our planet - past, present and the future ones. Can you provide any such movie(s) of any country (past and/or present) in our planet?
BTW, Norway has brought out that it doesn't want to have a rival country from the Britain with the similar connections to the EU, so it might block the EFTA membership of Britain.
Surely, Britain can survive outside the EU, but at which cost? Maybe the population will diminish something like 10-20 million people in the longer term? London is likely to lose it's meaning of being the most important financial centre in the world. If this is the will of the British but with the beliefs of Thatcherism that they will prosper as a gold digger in the already multipolar and globalised world, then let them have it.
What else do you have in mind?
I expected the usual knee jerk response from you and you didn't disappoint.
Are you afraid the EU will break up when the UK leaves?
So, I've fulfilled your several requests on commenting on the Brexit issue.
Please, watch completely both of these videos (much shorter than the whole movie) and give your own opinions on what these normal intelligent commentators are saying.
It's a fair game - if you lose it, you lose it.
Interesting videos. Thanks for posting them.
The scientist seems unaware of how the EU operates. For instance, he says the scale of the EU's bureaucracy is dwarfed by the scale of British bureaucracy but he seems unaware of British bureaucrats role in implementing EU legislation. British bureaucrats are agents of the EU as are other member states bureaucrats, ie the EU doesn't need so many bureaucrats because member states work for it. The EU is sometimes compared to VISA because like VISA it acts through local agents.
Like so many, he entirely misses the point of Brexit. It isn't to implement any one person's or group's vision. It's about our right to vote out politicians whose ideas don't have popular support in favour of those who do. That's why it's important to know who decides what our laws should be and to be able to vote for them. (There is also a smaller but still sizeable faction on the left of British politics that is anti-EU.)
He's also an agent of Project Fear. Project Fear's predictions have so far failed to materialise and businesses who joined it have cooled on that fear, Airbus included. Businesses, especially large businesses, will learn to adapt and they'll base their decisions on economic, not political, grounds. They always do and I'd expect nothing less. But I'm not interested in dumping British democracy to suit them and nothing the scientist has said changes this.
And a Swiss Project Fear member lecturing Brits on why we should not vote to leave the EU? It might have meant more if Switzerland had not voted against EU membership twice. The Swiss model isn't a model for the UK, but it might be a first stage. Do you really believe the UK will be cut off from the single market? Do you really believe the EU will be that masochistic?
That's my first impression of the videos. I'll look at them in more depth soon, but I'd be surprised if they contain any new information which will change the way I feel. I'm pretty sure I've heard all the arguments.
The scientist seems unaware of how the EU operates. For instance, he says the scale of the EU's bureaucracy is dwarfed by the scale of British bureaucracy but he seems unaware of British bureaucrats role in implementing EU legislation. British bureaucrats are agents of the EU as are other member states bureaucrats, ie the EU doesn't need so many bureaucrats because member states work for it. The EU is sometimes compared to VISA because like VISA it acts through local agents.
Talking about EU being the scapecoat for basically everything what is wrong <choose your country/area here>.
Sorry, you don't have any credibility whatsoever in your post. You don't live in a real world but in some very imaginable place out of this planet when you try to give some "ideas" of bureaucracy in this planet "how it should work" but never ever in the existence of human cultures has done so.
I would suggest for you to search the definition of the concept of 'bureaucracy'. You may learn something very true and valuable of the history of human cultures regarding this subject. Related to UK, also this link has an interesting information I would say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucracy
Or do think that Brexit could start a new page in the entire history of human cultures how bureaucracy in a modern society can be diminished? That kind of idea is non-existing in the real world.
Nationalism is the most widespread, effective and reason for the Brexit as a value. Why, you may ask? Because human beings all basically across the globe are resorting to the same issues which the Brexit supporters are concentrating on - most of them are based on ignorance of the world because they can't think beyond this nationalism thingy (just some hundreds of years old ism). All the basic and simple logic of the Brexit supporters are seen in every single country as they can't question their own values but find ANY kind of 'reasoning' based on their simple logic as they are "thinking" with their feelings (which are based on those simple nationalistic values) rather than using any kind of intelligence.
Brexit is a nationalistic answer to the realities of globalism, which will only go forward as we humans discovered the technologies to advance it. Britain can't tackle globalism on its own (well, maybe just for a few years if they can play the game with rest of the world with very very devious plans), but the Brexit supporters haven't realized that yet because they can't think beyond their own ism.
You need to bring very basics of history and psychology of us human beings into this issue. If you don't, you don't have any intelligence at all in your posts but just pure feelings (of nationalism).
The scientist seems unaware of how the EU operates. For instance, he says the scale of the EU's bureaucracy is dwarfed by the scale of British bureaucracy but he seems unaware of British bureaucrats role in implementing EU legislation. British bureaucrats are agents of the EU as are other member states bureaucrats, ie the EU doesn't need so many bureaucrats because member states work for it. The EU is sometimes compared to VISA because like VISA it acts through local agents.
Talking about EU being the scapecoat for basically everything what is wrong <choose your country/area here>.
Sorry, you don't have any credibility whatsoever in your post. You don't live in a real world but in some very imaginable place out of this planet when you try to give some "ideas" of bureaucracy in this planet "how it should work" but never ever in the existence of human cultures has done so.
I would suggest for you to search the definition of the concept of 'bureaucracy'. You may learn something very true and valuable of the history of human cultures regarding this subject. Related to UK, also this link has an interesting information I would say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucracy
Or do think that Brexit could start a new page in the entire history of human cultures how bureaucracy in a modern society can be diminished? That kind of idea is non-existing in the real world.
Nationalism is the most widespread, effective and reason for the Brexit as a value. Why, you may ask? Because human beings all basically across the globe are resorting to the same issues which the Brexit supporters are concentrating on - most of them are based on ignorance of the world because they can't think beyond this nationalism thingy (just some hundreds of years old ism). All the basic and simple logic of the Brexit supporters are seen in every single country as they can't question their own values but find ANY kind of 'reasoning' based on their simple logic as they are "thinking" with their feelings (which are based on those simple nationalistic values) rather than using any kind of intelligence.
Brexit is a nationalistic answer to the realities of globalism, which will only go forward as we humans discovered the technologies to advance it. Britain can't tackle globalism on its own (well, maybe just for a few years if they can play the game with rest of the world with very very devious plans), but the Brexit supporters haven't realized that yet because they can't think beyond their own ism.
You need to bring very basics of history and psychology of us human beings into this issue. If you don't, you don't have any intelligence at all in your posts but just pure feelings (of nationalism).
Globalization has failed. The Western world has embraced that siren song only to b surpassed by wiser East Asian nations a la South Korea and Japan which retain healthy nationalist impulses.
Skipping leg day is the equivalent of a woman having an abortion. You're ashamed of it, and it was probably unnecessary. #MAGA #wallsnotwars
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