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EU referendum results live: Brexit most likely outcome says leading pollster
Topic Started: Jun 23 2016, 09:09 PM (12,015 Views)
jar
Member Avatar
Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Fashy American
Aug 27 2016, 07:14 PM
jar
Aug 27 2016, 05:02 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Aug 24 2016, 05:47 PM

The scientist seems unaware of how the EU operates. For instance, he says the scale of the EU's bureaucracy is dwarfed by the scale of British bureaucracy but he seems unaware of British bureaucrats role in implementing EU legislation. British bureaucrats are agents of the EU as are other member states bureaucrats, ie the EU doesn't need so many bureaucrats because member states work for it. The EU is sometimes compared to VISA because like VISA it acts through local agents.
:rollseyes:

Talking about EU being the scapecoat for basically everything what is wrong <choose your country/area here>.

Sorry, you don't have any credibility whatsoever in your post. You don't live in a real world but in some very imaginable place out of this planet when you try to give some "ideas" of bureaucracy in this planet "how it should work" but never ever in the existence of human cultures has done so.

I would suggest for you to search the definition of the concept of 'bureaucracy'. You may learn something very true and valuable of the history of human cultures regarding this subject. Related to UK, also this link has an interesting information I would say:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucracy

Or do think that Brexit could start a new page in the entire history of human cultures how bureaucracy in a modern society can be diminished? That kind of idea is non-existing in the real world.


Nationalism is the most widespread, effective and reason for the Brexit as a value. Why, you may ask? Because human beings all basically across the globe are resorting to the same issues which the Brexit supporters are concentrating on - most of them are based on ignorance of the world because they can't think beyond this nationalism thingy (just some hundreds of years old ism). All the basic and simple logic of the Brexit supporters are seen in every single country as they can't question their own values but find ANY kind of 'reasoning' based on their simple logic as they are "thinking" with their feelings (which are based on those simple nationalistic values) rather than using any kind of intelligence.

Brexit is a nationalistic answer to the realities of globalism, which will only go forward as we humans discovered the technologies to advance it.
Britain can't tackle globalism on its own (well, maybe just for a few years if they can play the game with rest of the world with very very devious plans), but the Brexit supporters haven't realized that yet because they can't think beyond their own ism.

You need to bring very basics of history and psychology of us human beings into this issue. If you don't, you don't have any intelligence at all in your posts but just pure feelings (of nationalism).
Globalization has failed. The Western world has embraced that siren song only to b surpassed by wiser East Asian nations a la South Korea and Japan which retain healthy nationalist impulses.
Truly globalized world has been available just a few years out of the few hundreds of years of nationalism and compared to about 200,000 years of human life.

Just to put your views in to a perspective of human life.

But the truly globalized is not going away unless we have complete WW3 where all the knowledge of human life are destroyed to the very basics of survival in the entire planet.
That means all technological advances in the telecom are completely destroyed: all telecom networks ever discovered and all the knowledge of them. A bit like global fall of the Roman Empire but all across the planet.
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Nan Tucks Ghost

Fashy American
Aug 27 2016, 07:14 PM
jar
Aug 27 2016, 05:02 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Aug 24 2016, 05:47 PM

The scientist seems unaware of how the EU operates. For instance, he says the scale of the EU's bureaucracy is dwarfed by the scale of British bureaucracy but he seems unaware of British bureaucrats role in implementing EU legislation. British bureaucrats are agents of the EU as are other member states bureaucrats, ie the EU doesn't need so many bureaucrats because member states work for it. The EU is sometimes compared to VISA because like VISA it acts through local agents.
:rollseyes:

Talking about EU being the scapecoat for basically everything what is wrong <choose your country/area here>.

Sorry, you don't have any credibility whatsoever in your post. You don't live in a real world but in some very imaginable place out of this planet when you try to give some "ideas" of bureaucracy in this planet "how it should work" but never ever in the existence of human cultures has done so.

I would suggest for you to search the definition of the concept of 'bureaucracy'. You may learn something very true and valuable of the history of human cultures regarding this subject. Related to UK, also this link has an interesting information I would say:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucracy

Or do think that Brexit could start a new page in the entire history of human cultures how bureaucracy in a modern society can be diminished? That kind of idea is non-existing in the real world.


Nationalism is the most widespread, effective and reason for the Brexit as a value. Why, you may ask? Because human beings all basically across the globe are resorting to the same issues which the Brexit supporters are concentrating on - most of them are based on ignorance of the world because they can't think beyond this nationalism thingy (just some hundreds of years old ism). All the basic and simple logic of the Brexit supporters are seen in every single country as they can't question their own values but find ANY kind of 'reasoning' based on their simple logic as they are "thinking" with their feelings (which are based on those simple nationalistic values) rather than using any kind of intelligence.

Brexit is a nationalistic answer to the realities of globalism, which will only go forward as we humans discovered the technologies to advance it.
Britain can't tackle globalism on its own (well, maybe just for a few years if they can play the game with rest of the world with very very devious plans), but the Brexit supporters haven't realized that yet because they can't think beyond their own ism.

You need to bring very basics of history and psychology of us human beings into this issue. If you don't, you don't have any intelligence at all in your posts but just pure feelings (of nationalism).
Globalization has failed. The Western world has embraced that siren song only to b surpassed by wiser East Asian nations a la South Korea and Japan which retain healthy nationalist impulses.
It's you who refuses to deal with reality. No one is blaming the EU for everything, and I don't know anyone who agrees with your wild theories on what you imagine we Brexiters think Brexit will change. And as I've said before, globalisation, its effects and other events beyond our control, are things the UK will be free to react to as it sees fit, but I guess that didn't suit your thinking, so you just ignored it.

Remainers predictions of the UK's economy crashing have so far proved wrong and demonstrably politically motivated. If they had any shame at all they'd admit that. Instead they're laughably telling us we didn't understand what we were voting for and that we should be given the opportunity to change our minds! They have no credibility. As the UK PM Theresa May has said, the UK remains open for business. And it's doing well enough so far. This is the real world, not some europhile wet dream.

If remainers get their way and the government does succumb to their demands to hold a second referendum (something May has said will not happen) I predict an even bigger majority than on 23 June. May remains on probation though, not wholly trusted yet.

And your Swiss guy missed Brexiters saying that we're not Switzerland (or Norway) and we'll have a deal of our own. What that deal will be remains to be seen, but we do know it will be a whole lot better than EU membership.

Incidentally, my son returned from a stay in India recently, and he says the Indian media is fixated with racism when it discusses Brexit. I wonder how many members of the Indian media have bothered to investigate for themselves and how many accepted the overriding establishment and europhile view. Mainstream Brexiters are not racist but we do want a return to a self-governing, sovereign democracy. The media doesn't even know how the small proportion of the population who are racist, criminal idiots, who have been attributed to the Brexit campaign by the remain side, voted or even if they voted at all!

Now you can think the EU is a force for good, and argue for that position, but please ... be mature enough to deal with the issue without needlessly calling Brexit supporters character and motivations into question. After all this time, I don't expect you to be able to do this. Therefore the day I have credibility with you is the day the world turns on its head. :booboo:
Edited by Nan Tucks Ghost, Sep 2 2016, 06:03 AM.
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Robert Stout
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Today's globalism is like yesterday's feudalism...It benefits the rich and is hard on peasants...Globalism can and will be stopped...The peasants are storming the gates of the castle with pitchforks as we speak...I suppose the nobles said the people were ignorant, just like the globalists say people are ignorant and need guidance today....The debate is whether globalism is an inevitable progression in mankind's development....The guillotine settled the debate about 220 years ago.............. :machinegun: :euflag:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 2 2016, 06:00 AM
Fashy American
Aug 27 2016, 07:14 PM
jar
Aug 27 2016, 05:02 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deephttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucracy

Or do think that Brexit could start a new page in the entire history of human cultures how bureaucracy in a modern society can be diminished? That kind of idea is non-existing in the real world.


Nationalism is the most widespread, effective and reason for the Brexit as a value. Why, you may ask? Because human beings all basically across the globe are resorting to the same issues which the Brexit supporters are concentrating on - most of them are based on ignorance of the world because they can't think beyond this nationalism thingy (just some hundreds of years old ism). All the basic and simple logic of the Brexit supporters are seen in every single country as they can't question their own values but find ANY kind of 'reasoning' based on their simple logic as they are "thinking" with their feelings (which are based on those simple nationalistic values) rather than using any kind of intelligence.

Brexit is a nationalistic answer to the realities of globalism, which will only go forward as we humans discovered the technologies to advance it.
Britain can't tackle globalism on its own (well, maybe just for a few years if they can play the game with rest of the world with very very devious plans), but the Brexit supporters haven't realized that yet because they can't think beyond their own ism.

You need to bring very basics of history and psychology of us human beings into this issue. If you don't, you don't have any intelligence at all in your posts but just pure feelings (of nationalism).
Globalization has failed. The Western world has embraced that siren song only to b surpassed by wiser East Asian nations a la South Korea and Japan which retain healthy nationalist impulses.
It's you who refuses to deal with reality. No one is blaming the EU for everything, and I don't know anyone who agrees with your wild theories on what you imagine we Brexiters think Brexit will change. And as I've said before, globalisation, its effects and other events beyond our control, are things the UK will be free to react to as it sees fit, but I guess that didn't suit your thinking, so you just ignored it.

Remainers predictions of the UK's economy crashing have so far proved wrong and demonstrably politically motivated. If they had any shame at all they'd admit that. Instead they're laughably telling us we didn't understand what we were voting for and that we should be given the opportunity to change our minds! They have no credibility. As the UK PM Theresa May has said, the UK remains open for business. And it's doing well enough so far. This is the real world, not some europhile wet dream.

If remainers get their way and the government does succumb to their demands to hold a second referendum (something May has said will not happen) I predict an even bigger majority than on 23 June. May remains on probation though, not wholly trusted yet.

And your Swiss guy missed Brexiters saying that we're not Switzerland (or Norway) and we'll have a deal of our own. What that deal will be remains to be seen, but we do know it will be a whole lot better than EU membership.

Incidentally, my son returned from a stay in India recently, and he says the Indian media is fixated with racism when it discusses Brexit. I wonder how many members of the Indian media have bothered to investigate for themselves and how many accepted the overriding establishment and europhile view. Mainstream Brexiters are not racist but we do want a return to a self-governing, sovereign democracy. The media doesn't even know how the small proportion of the population who are racist, criminal idiots, who have been attributed to the Brexit campaign by the remain side, voted or even if they voted at all!

Now you can think the EU is a force for good, and argue for that position, but please ... be mature enough to deal with the issue without needlessly calling Brexit supporters character and motivations into question. After all this time, I don't expect you to be able to do this. Therefore the day I have credibility with you is the day the world turns on its head. :booboo:
What?

All of the Brexit WAS and IS because of EU is blamed on all possible things which your selected British press news (allowed in a democracy) has LIED about to the British people for years and years. This same "blame the EU" thing is happening everywhere in Europe with those kind of people who are subjected to very simplified view of the entire world existing today.
I could show you basically THOUSANDS of posts EACH and EVERY SINGLE day how the "Fixit" supporters are talking about their ideals and views, and those are almost exactly the same as the Brexit supporters bring them about.
(One local difference is that the very same Fixit supporters are majorly also wanting to get rid of bi-bilingualism in this country as we have both Finnish and Swedish as official languages in Finland.)

So, why did you bring the Brexit the Movie into this thing, uh?

What "remainers" are you talking about? Whom are you talking about? Why are you talking about them since the official Brexit announcement from Britain hasn't even been heard about?

Mate, you're just predicting everything based on your nationalistic feelings, as if it is something that will somehow miraculously "solve" all the problems England has in the already globalised world, which WILL NOT GO AWAY but keep spreading around the world - unless we have global WW3 (to destroy almost entirely the human race).

You seem to base all your views on feelings - not the reality of the planet. To make you to come back from your hyped feelings back down to the surface of the Earth, please explain what kind of plans you have to tackle the multipolar world, which exists today. Do you know which those areas and countries are which have already changed the 2-polar world we had after WW2, after SU collapsed and especially since the modern Internet became a reality in our world in the 1990's?
All those trade agreements you have with the multipolar forces and each other single countries will have to be renegotiated again. What is Britain's leverage in those deals? Can you give out some examples where Britain is very strong on? Take Russia, for example, which is nowadays again one of the world's major problem countries with too nationalistic values ruling it and Britain doesn't really have any good relationships with it in the history either. You need to consider that Russia is a WTO member these days.

So you mentioned India from personal perspectives, which got its independence from Britain in 1947. Do you think they don't respect that independence still? They have 22 official languages in that country, and it is a federation union as well.
So now it's the target of Indian media again? Hmm... Why have I seen this in Finland too regarding the media and nationalism?
All media news which does not fit into narrow nationalistic views are "not telling the truth", right? What kind of "truth" do you want to hear and read, AND what kind of world does that "truth" tell about? Is that "world" something that the entire human race should aim for? Does it involve avoidance of wars, brutal violence, rasicsm, neglectance, harrassments and threathenings, which nationalism was basically built upon in the human history, especially in Europe?

Before accusing me of any kind of maturity, please first take into consideration the realities of human life in this world, its values, its history, and how the history has changed those values. Then go forward with the realities of the modern world, with the globalism (which will NOT go away without WW3 (or WW4) destroying most of human life) and how we - the western world which have been the most influencial part of the world to advance globalism - have to tackle and compete with the inventions we have made.

I'm expecting hundreds of lines of your own views on how Brexit - if it comes true - will make the British people any richer and in which ways and with which values it would make you richer? Note that these are the same things I've questioned the Finnish nationalists but absolutely none of them have been able to give any kind of intelligent answer - but instead I've been blocked out of such discussions and even received one assault threat, which is absolutely no surprise to me regarding the very history of nationalism.
Edited by jar, Sep 3 2016, 01:04 PM.
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Nan Tucks Ghost

jar
Sep 3 2016, 01:01 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 2 2016, 06:00 AM
Fashy American
Aug 27 2016, 07:14 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deephttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucracy
It's you who refuses to deal with reality. No one is blaming the EU for everything, and I don't know anyone who agrees with your wild theories on what you imagine we Brexiters think Brexit will change. And as I've said before, globalisation, its effects and other events beyond our control, are things the UK will be free to react to as it sees fit, but I guess that didn't suit your thinking, so you just ignored it.

Remainers predictions of the UK's economy crashing have so far proved wrong and demonstrably politically motivated. If they had any shame at all they'd admit that. Instead they're laughably telling us we didn't understand what we were voting for and that we should be given the opportunity to change our minds! They have no credibility. As the UK PM Theresa May has said, the UK remains open for business. And it's doing well enough so far. This is the real world, not some europhile wet dream.

If remainers get their way and the government does succumb to their demands to hold a second referendum (something May has said will not happen) I predict an even bigger majority than on 23 June. May remains on probation though, not wholly trusted yet.

And your Swiss guy missed Brexiters saying that we're not Switzerland (or Norway) and we'll have a deal of our own. What that deal will be remains to be seen, but we do know it will be a whole lot better than EU membership.

Incidentally, my son returned from a stay in India recently, and he says the Indian media is fixated with racism when it discusses Brexit. I wonder how many members of the Indian media have bothered to investigate for themselves and how many accepted the overriding establishment and europhile view. Mainstream Brexiters are not racist but we do want a return to a self-governing, sovereign democracy. The media doesn't even know how the small proportion of the population who are racist, criminal idiots, who have been attributed to the Brexit campaign by the remain side, voted or even if they voted at all!

Now you can think the EU is a force for good, and argue for that position, but please ... be mature enough to deal with the issue without needlessly calling Brexit supporters character and motivations into question. After all this time, I don't expect you to be able to do this. Therefore the day I have credibility with you is the day the world turns on its head. :booboo:
What?

All of the Brexit WAS and IS because of EU is blamed on all possible things which your selected British press news (allowed in a democracy) has LIED about to the British people for years and years. This same "blame the EU" thing is happening everywhere in Europe with those kind of people who are subjected to very simplified view of the entire world existing today.
I could show you basically THOUSANDS of posts EACH and EVERY SINGLE day how the "Fixit" supporters are talking about their ideals and views, and those are almost exactly the same as the Brexit supporters bring them about.
(One local difference is that the very same Fixit supporters are majorly also wanting to get rid of bi-bilingualism in this country as we have both Finnish and Swedish as official languages in Finland.)

So, why did you bring the Brexit the Movie into this thing, uh?

What "remainers" are you talking about? Whom are you talking about? Why are you talking about them since the official Brexit announcement from Britain hasn't even been heard about?

Mate, you're just predicting everything based on your nationalistic feelings, as if it is something that will somehow miraculously "solve" all the problems England has in the already globalised world, which WILL NOT GO AWAY but keep spreading around the world - unless we have global WW3 (to destroy almost entirely the human race).

You seem to base all your views on feelings - not the reality of the planet. To make you to come back from your hyped feelings back down to the surface of the Earth, please explain what kind of plans you have to tackle the multipolar world, which exists today. Do you know which those areas and countries are which have already changed the 2-polar world we had after WW2, after SU collapsed and especially since the modern Internet became a reality in our world in the 1990's?
All those trade agreements you have with the multipolar forces and each other single countries will have to be renegotiated again. What is Britain's leverage in those deals? Can you give out some examples where Britain is very strong on? Take Russia, for example, which is nowadays again one of the world's major problem countries with too nationalistic values ruling it and Britain doesn't really have any good relationships with it in the history either. You need to consider that Russia is a WTO member these days.

So you mentioned India from personal perspectives, which got its independence from Britain in 1947. Do you think they don't respect that independence still? They have 22 official languages in that country, and it is a federation union as well.
So now it's the target of Indian media again? Hmm... Why have I seen this in Finland too regarding the media and nationalism?
All media news which does not fit into narrow nationalistic views are "not telling the truth", right? What kind of "truth" do you want to hear and read, AND what kind of world does that "truth" tell about? Is that "world" something that the entire human race should aim for? Does it involve avoidance of wars, brutal violence, rasicsm, neglectance, harrassments and threathenings, which nationalism was basically built upon in the human history, especially in Europe?

Before accusing me of any kind of maturity, please first take into consideration the realities of human life in this world, its values, its history, and how the history has changed those values. Then go forward with the realities of the modern world, with the globalism (which will NOT go away without WW3 (or WW4) destroying most of human life) and how we - the western world which have been the most influencial part of the world to advance globalism - have to tackle and compete with the inventions we have made.

I'm expecting hundreds of lines of your own views on how Brexit - if it comes true - will make the British people any richer and in which ways and with which values it would make you richer? Note that these are the same things I've questioned the Finnish nationalists but absolutely none of them have been able to give any kind of intelligent answer - but instead I've been blocked out of such discussions and even received one assault threat, which is absolutely no surprise to me regarding the very history of nationalism.
The referendum was about whether we should leave the UK as I’m sure you know. Brexit the Movie gave a fairly good account of why the UK should leave so it should be obvious why it has featured here.

I base my views on what I think is in the UK’s and in my family’s best interests, and that’s not in EU membership. There’s nothing wrong with ‘nationalism’ per se. There are a lot of self-governing countries in the world. That’s reality. Do they base everything on their ‘nationalistic feelings’ too?

Remainers (sometimes called ‘bremainers’) are the opposite numbers of Brexiters. They campaigned to keep the UK in the EU, unofficially for decades but officially during the referendum campaign when their campaign used the title ‘Britain Stronger In Europe’. Google it for more info if you’re interested in. Its supporters included politicians from the larger UK parties, like ex-PM David Cameron and current mayor of London Sadiq Khan, ex politicians like Tony Blair and John Major, and business men and women like Richard Branson (Virgin Airlines) and Baroness Karren Brady (made her name as a football club chairman and is a TV personality).

Remainers have been telling lies for decades …. like there’d be no loss of sovereignty on joining and 3m jobs will be lost if we leave. The chairman of Britain Stronger in Europe, Lord Stuart Rose, did slip up when he said wages would go up if we left. Remainers quickly shuffled him off the campaign trail after that.

Remainers complaining their own deceitful tactics were used against them in even the mildest of forms by Brexiters are pitiful. And as for the British press ... for our entire membership it has supported parties that are in favour of EU membership every time it counted. Their woefully inadequate EU coverage was pitched to sell copies, not to inform. The broadcast media was no better, especially of course the BBC. The print media did split, some for Brexit and some for remain, during the campaign.

The UK has not yet invoked Article 50, which will start official negotiations. I assume this is because negotiations are going on behind the scenes, but if this delay turns out to be a delaying or even avoiding tactic from Theresa May’s government, you can expect more rows in the UK about this, tedious as this will be for other member states. (The government is split between remainers and Brexiters.) I can only apologise for this. Like I said, May is on probation. And don’t worry about the UK’s leverage in trade deals, but if you really want to we can talk about it, and anything else you want to, but this post will be long enough without that!

I can’t think of anyone who does not respect India’s right to independence. That does not mean I agree with everything the Indian media says, especially if what I heard about its coverage of the Brexit debate is true. I’ll take each instance on its own merit before I decide whether it deserves to be viewed as informed, honest and truthful.

How many times do I need to say: I AM NOT EXPECTING GLOBALISM TO GO AWAY. I WANT THE UK TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO REACT TO IT AND OTHER EVENTS BEYOND THE UK’S CONTROL AS THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNING PARTY SEES FIT. If the governing party does not act or react as the electorate wants them to, the electorate can vote for different politicians to form a government.

I did not say Brexit will make the British people richer, nor have I ever said it will solve all British problems, miraculously or otherwise. It just means the UK will be a self-governing country, just like most countries in the world, and free to act in national interests whenever it suits the UK, just like most countries in the world are free to act in their own national interests when they see fit.

I’m very sorry to hear that you’ve felt threatened, but I’m really not surprised that you’ve been blocked from discussions if what you’ve said here is anything to go by. I find your arguments quite without merit on this issue. Perhaps we just look at this from very different perspectives … the UK does not border Russia for one thing!


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W A Mozart
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This coming out of the "Times" today...

Brexit vote sparks new revolt by EU states

Posted Image
Viktor Orbán, Hungary’s prime minister, says “Brexit is a fantastic opportunity . . . There is a possibility of a cultural counter-revolution now”

Quote:
 
Former communist states are planning to exploit the fallout of Brexit with a “counter-revolution” designed to block migrant deals and assert the power of national governments over Brussels.

Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, an influential diplomatic European Union bloc known as the Visegrad Group, will lobby together at a summit next week to ensure that national governments are put back in the EU’s driving seat.

The summit will gather all EU leaders, excluding Theresa May, in Slovakia’s capital to forge a new vision of Europe. It is expected to expose the rift between newer member states in the…

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brexit-vote-sparks-new-revolt-by-eu-states-dpvd9xnhw



All those years of living under communism has made the leaders of the eastern Europen states 'wise' to the steady stream of bullsh$t from European liberals and socialists. They are about to turn the EU onto its head...!


Just watch, next week....! :popcorn:

Mozart
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 5 2016, 04:35 PM
I base my views on what I think is in the UK’s and in my family’s best interests, and that’s not in EU membership. There’s nothing wrong with ‘nationalism’ per se. There are a lot of self-governing countries in the world. That’s reality. Do they base everything on their ‘nationalistic feelings’ too?

Remainers (sometimes called ‘bremainers’) are the opposite numbers of Brexiters. They campaigned to keep the UK in the EU, unofficially for decades but officially during the referendum campaign when their campaign used the title ‘Britain Stronger In Europe’. Google it for more info if you’re interested in. Its supporters included politicians from the larger UK parties, like ex-PM David Cameron and current mayor of London Sadiq Khan, ex politicians like Tony Blair and John Major, and business men and women like Richard Branson (Virgin Airlines) and Baroness Karren Brady (made her name as a football club chairman and is a TV personality).

Remainers have been telling lies for decades …. like there’d be no loss of sovereignty on joining and 3m jobs will be lost if we leave. The chairman of Britain Stronger in Europe, Lord Stuart Rose, did slip up when he said wages would go up if we left. Remainers quickly shuffled him off the campaign trail after that.

Remainers complaining their own deceitful tactics were used against them in even the mildest of forms by Brexiters are pitiful. And as for the British press ... for our entire membership it has supported parties that are in favour of EU membership every time it counted. Their woefully inadequate EU coverage was pitched to sell copies, not to inform. The broadcast media was no better, especially of course the BBC. The print media did split, some for Brexit and some for remain, during the campaign.

The UK has not yet invoked Article 50, which will start official negotiations. I assume this is because negotiations are going on behind the scenes, but if this delay turns out to be a delaying or even avoiding tactic from Theresa May’s government, you can expect more rows in the UK about this, tedious as this will be for other member states. (The government is split between remainers and Brexiters.) I can only apologise for this. Like I said, May is on probation. And don’t worry about the UK’s leverage in trade deals, but if you really want to we can talk about it, and anything else you want to, but this post will be long enough without that!

I can’t think of anyone who does not respect India’s right to independence. That does not mean I agree with everything the Indian media says, especially if what I heard about its coverage of the Brexit debate is true. I’ll take each instance on its own merit before I decide whether it deserves to be viewed as informed, honest and truthful.

How many times do I need to say: I AM NOT EXPECTING GLOBALISM TO GO AWAY. I WANT THE UK TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO REACT TO IT AND OTHER EVENTS BEYOND THE UK’S CONTROL AS THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNING PARTY SEES FIT. If the governing party does not act or react as the electorate wants them to, the electorate can vote for different politicians to form a government.

I did not say Brexit will make the British people richer, nor have I ever said it will solve all British problems, miraculously or otherwise. It just means the UK will be a self-governing country, just like most countries in the world, and free to act in national interests whenever it suits the UK, just like most countries in the world are free to act in their own national interests when they see fit.

I’m very sorry to hear that you’ve felt threatened, but I’m really not surprised that you’ve been blocked from discussions if what you’ve said here is anything to go by. I find your arguments quite without merit on this issue. Perhaps we just look at this from very different perspectives … the UK does not border Russia for one thing!


As a human being, looks like maybe you're a bit out of your league telling these way too simplistic views of yours, eh?


I guess you're redefining the meaning of 'nationalism', its very violent history, what it meant to the thousands of cultures existing at the time when nationalism started to spread around Europe where this whole modern concept of nationalism was born.

I guess you don't mind that nationalism destroyed a lot of local cultures, people were forced to accept and learn the official language used by nationalists and thus killing a lot of then existing languages, people were killed or harrassed for not accepting the wishes of those who started to define what their concept of nationalism meant.

Especially before and in WW1, nationalism was a major value to collect and raise hatred towards <choose your enemy here>. I'm fairly sure you have seen lots of propaganda posters in your life from the early 1900's and in the WW2 era how people were 'lured' to see that the opponents were not even human - to be able to kill the enemy.

The problem with your definition is that in today's world, nationalism in Europe has also meant that this same psychological hatred and subject to simple propaganda has spread again throughout the continent.
In England, there has been already one political murder of a politician directly linked to nationalism and several foreign people (not talking English) have been harrassed and even killed.
Even Finns have been subjected to this nationalistic fervour spreading in England, told by the Finns living in there. (Mind you, I've been in England nearly 6 months since 1995, both working and leisure trips, and travelled around quite a bit...).

From psychological point of view, I'm not wondering at all that mental illnesses are closely linked to nationalistic behaviour and how it affects people when large number of people are involved. The problem for your side is, that you're not the one to control that group. You have to accept those group behaviours as a reality of us humans what that group of people is capable of doing when having enough (political) power.


Can you tell me, what is the basic value on which you base your views and hopes of the future on?

Are you hoping that you will keep the close relationships with the US as they have existed since WW2 era?
(Mind you, I have also been in Bletchley Park to listen to a presentation including the history of the US - UK relationships regarding what happened there...)
Are you sure that, regarding this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik that the USA will help you because of these historical ties? At least Obama has said that the USA will hold the economical relationships with the EU more important than that of the England outside the EU.
Are you maybe hoping that Trump wins the next presidential election rather than Clinton, and that all that will change things between US and England, even though Trump has stated "America first"?


Obviously, you have a very strict and narrowminded opinion that the EU is somehow "taking away all the national interests" of <name your country here>. So, why are you like any of the nationalistic parties' members we have here in Finland alone? We have several of these nationalistic parties in this country, you know, and one of them has even made it to the current goverment: The Basic Finns (about 25% support during elections, now dropped to below 10% after being in the goverment since 2015).
All your views and ideals are basically exactly the same as we have here with these parties (with most extremists thrown out of the Basic Finns but then joined to another radical nationalistic party).

Here's a link to a small reflection of the same values: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3772204/Has-Boris-finally-met-match-Bo-Jo-bumps-Finnish-minister-Slovakia-s-SCRUFFIER-foreign-secretary.html
;)


For UK - Russian issue: Russian military vessels ARE patrolling UK borders regularly and also testing the reaction to possible border violations. Are you sure you really know what's going on in this world today, uh?
I have to ask you one thing: In which kind of world you are living in? Have you ever heard of space ships? Russians are also in space and have sent satellites to outer space.
They have also placed a flag in the bottom of the sea in the North Pole, claiming that it's their territory.

Also regarding the Russia relationship, are you looking for a new war?
NATO is the enemy for Russia (according to the Russians - no matter how stupid their views and values are) and since England is against the common European Army (but then must be relying on NATO), you also MUST have an opinion how this new world order is to be since WW2 ended and since Soviet Union was dismantled and since Russia has its interest to re-instate its former force in the global world basically solely by military actions, also threatening England's national borders.
Do note that Putin has stated that NATO is their enemy because of USA being too much in control over NATO involvements. (Please see what I've discussed with Siberian (former Katzap) in this forum).

So, how does your views on the history of the continental Europe is in any relation to the realities we have in this day and age?
Looks more like your "England" is too much stuck in the WW1 and WW2 eras of Europe and is incapable of understanding how much Europe has changed since? You want to stick to the nationalism and want this part of the world to stay that way even though we have already multi-polar world at hand?
Compared to e.g. Norway and Switzerland, what are your profound (historical) strengths that you can rely on with all the technological advances we already have on this planet?
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W A Mozart
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Quote:
 
From psychological point of view, I'm not wondering at all that mental illnesses are closely linked to nationalistic behaviour and how it affects people when large number of people are involved.


Mental illness? Because people are afraid of living under a different culture? Burka's on the French Riviera? Sharia Law in the UK?

It would seem that the mental illness comes from years and years of listening to socialist drivel and Marxist dogma. Orwell got it right, ..

Quote:
 
Blackwhite is defined as follows:

this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.

— Orwell, 1984



Mozart
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Robert Stout
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When the good ship EU sinks beneath the sea, Jar will remain steadfastly aboard shouting, "We are the future!!!", when there is no future....Jar never got the memo that only the captain is expected to go down with the ship........... :wah:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
W A Mozart
Sep 10 2016, 09:12 AM
Quote:
 
From psychological point of view, I'm not wondering at all that mental illnesses are closely linked to nationalistic behaviour and how it affects people when large number of people are involved.


Mental illness? Because people are afraid of living under a different culture? Burka's on the French Riviera? Sharia Law in the UK?

It would seem that the mental illness comes from years and years of listening to socialist drivel and Marxist dogma. Orwell got it right, ..

Quote:
 
Blackwhite is defined as follows:

this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.

— Orwell, 1984



Mozart
A lot of the violent people who are willing and able to do atrocities in this world, including murders and mass murders with political and value based opinions, is part of how nationalism was born and is again showing to exist in Europe and in the US as well. It's not that far from those people who use their views of religion based extremism to spread the violence. It is no suprise to me that nationalism is at one "end of the circle" facing the other "end of the circle" against religious extremism.


Why do those kind of western people like you obviously refer to here, would be subjected to living under a different culture as you depict with the Sharia Law? Who of the western people would let go of the modern western cultures, the basics and the values of them derived from the past and what those mean and has resulted to in today's world of the western world?

Can you explain yourself what are those western values that you are afraid to lose? Who changes those values so that they "would be lost"? What it takes in a modern western world to change those laws and values to be "closer to what the islamic extremists want of the Sharia Law to exist"?

In EU countries, to what I've lately seen in the statistics, there are about 50M muslims amongst us in over 500M people. How many of those 50M are these extremists wanting Sharia Law to be the only base of laws? Why would the very minority of one of the minority groups/religions be in charge of what base of laws the EU countries should be based on? Which EU country would allow that? How would that single EU country be affected by the EU organizations so that the constitutional basis of the EU would be replaced by the Sharia Law in ANY EU country?


Mozart, I'm spoiling your fun with this post but your should triple-check your medications and continue to wear those dipers :tongue:
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Siberian
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lol, Jar, you are just in time :lol:
you are welcome to comment here on the Western values :)
such as double standards and censorship - to start with.
since the original topic on WADA was closed, you can do it here

http://unitedstates.com/topic/10006670/1/
Edited by Siberian, Sep 13 2016, 01:00 PM.
Goood morning GULAG!!!
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Nan Tucks Ghost

jar
Sep 9 2016, 01:46 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 5 2016, 04:35 PM
I base my views on what I think is in the UK’s and in my family’s best interests, and that’s not in EU membership. There’s nothing wrong with ‘nationalism’ per se. There are a lot of self-governing countries in the world. That’s reality. Do they base everything on their ‘nationalistic feelings’ too?

Remainers (sometimes called ‘bremainers’) are the opposite numbers of Brexiters. They campaigned to keep the UK in the EU, unofficially for decades but officially during the referendum campaign when their campaign used the title ‘Britain Stronger In Europe’. Google it for more info if you’re interested in. Its supporters included politicians from the larger UK parties, like ex-PM David Cameron and current mayor of London Sadiq Khan, ex politicians like Tony Blair and John Major, and business men and women like Richard Branson (Virgin Airlines) and Baroness Karren Brady (made her name as a football club chairman and is a TV personality).

Remainers have been telling lies for decades …. like there’d be no loss of sovereignty on joining and 3m jobs will be lost if we leave. The chairman of Britain Stronger in Europe, Lord Stuart Rose, did slip up when he said wages would go up if we left. Remainers quickly shuffled him off the campaign trail after that.

Remainers complaining their own deceitful tactics were used against them in even the mildest of forms by Brexiters are pitiful. And as for the British press ... for our entire membership it has supported parties that are in favour of EU membership every time it counted. Their woefully inadequate EU coverage was pitched to sell copies, not to inform. The broadcast media was no better, especially of course the BBC. The print media did split, some for Brexit and some for remain, during the campaign.

The UK has not yet invoked Article 50, which will start official negotiations. I assume this is because negotiations are going on behind the scenes, but if this delay turns out to be a delaying or even avoiding tactic from Theresa May’s government, you can expect more rows in the UK about this, tedious as this will be for other member states. (The government is split between remainers and Brexiters.) I can only apologise for this. Like I said, May is on probation. And don’t worry about the UK’s leverage in trade deals, but if you really want to we can talk about it, and anything else you want to, but this post will be long enough without that!

I can’t think of anyone who does not respect India’s right to independence. That does not mean I agree with everything the Indian media says, especially if what I heard about its coverage of the Brexit debate is true. I’ll take each instance on its own merit before I decide whether it deserves to be viewed as informed, honest and truthful.

How many times do I need to say: I AM NOT EXPECTING GLOBALISM TO GO AWAY. I WANT THE UK TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO REACT TO IT AND OTHER EVENTS BEYOND THE UK’S CONTROL AS THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNING PARTY SEES FIT. If the governing party does not act or react as the electorate wants them to, the electorate can vote for different politicians to form a government.

I did not say Brexit will make the British people richer, nor have I ever said it will solve all British problems, miraculously or otherwise. It just means the UK will be a self-governing country, just like most countries in the world, and free to act in national interests whenever it suits the UK, just like most countries in the world are free to act in their own national interests when they see fit.

I’m very sorry to hear that you’ve felt threatened, but I’m really not surprised that you’ve been blocked from discussions if what you’ve said here is anything to go by. I find your arguments quite without merit on this issue. Perhaps we just look at this from very different perspectives … the UK does not border Russia for one thing!


As a human being, looks like maybe you're a bit out of your league telling these way too simplistic views of yours, eh?


I guess you're redefining the meaning of 'nationalism', its very violent history, what it meant to the thousands of cultures existing at the time when nationalism started to spread around Europe where this whole modern concept of nationalism was born.

I guess you don't mind that nationalism destroyed a lot of local cultures, people were forced to accept and learn the official language used by nationalists and thus killing a lot of then existing languages, people were killed or harrassed for not accepting the wishes of those who started to define what their concept of nationalism meant.

Especially before and in WW1, nationalism was a major value to collect and raise hatred towards <choose your enemy here>. I'm fairly sure you have seen lots of propaganda posters in your life from the early 1900's and in the WW2 era how people were 'lured' to see that the opponents were not even human - to be able to kill the enemy.

The problem with your definition is that in today's world, nationalism in Europe has also meant that this same psychological hatred and subject to simple propaganda has spread again throughout the continent.
In England, there has been already one political murder of a politician directly linked to nationalism and several foreign people (not talking English) have been harrassed and even killed.
Even Finns have been subjected to this nationalistic fervour spreading in England, told by the Finns living in there. (Mind you, I've been in England nearly 6 months since 1995, both working and leisure trips, and travelled around quite a bit...).

From psychological point of view, I'm not wondering at all that mental illnesses are closely linked to nationalistic behaviour and how it affects people when large number of people are involved. The problem for your side is, that you're not the one to control that group. You have to accept those group behaviours as a reality of us humans what that group of people is capable of doing when having enough (political) power.


Can you tell me, what is the basic value on which you base your views and hopes of the future on?

Are you hoping that you will keep the close relationships with the US as they have existed since WW2 era?
(Mind you, I have also been in Bletchley Park to listen to a presentation including the history of the US - UK relationships regarding what happened there...)
Are you sure that, regarding this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik that the USA will help you because of these historical ties? At least Obama has said that the USA will hold the economical relationships with the EU more important than that of the England outside the EU.
Are you maybe hoping that Trump wins the next presidential election rather than Clinton, and that all that will change things between US and England, even though Trump has stated "America first"?


Obviously, you have a very strict and narrowminded opinion that the EU is somehow "taking away all the national interests" of <name your country here>. So, why are you like any of the nationalistic parties' members we have here in Finland alone? We have several of these nationalistic parties in this country, you know, and one of them has even made it to the current goverment: The Basic Finns (about 25% support during elections, now dropped to below 10% after being in the goverment since 2015).
All your views and ideals are basically exactly the same as we have here with these parties (with most extremists thrown out of the Basic Finns but then joined to another radical nationalistic party).

Here's a link to a small reflection of the same values: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3772204/Has-Boris-finally-met-match-Bo-Jo-bumps-Finnish-minister-Slovakia-s-SCRUFFIER-foreign-secretary.html
;)


For UK - Russian issue: Russian military vessels ARE patrolling UK borders regularly and also testing the reaction to possible border violations. Are you sure you really know what's going on in this world today, uh?
I have to ask you one thing: In which kind of world you are living in? Have you ever heard of space ships? Russians are also in space and have sent satellites to outer space.
They have also placed a flag in the bottom of the sea in the North Pole, claiming that it's their territory.

Also regarding the Russia relationship, are you looking for a new war?
NATO is the enemy for Russia (according to the Russians - no matter how stupid their views and values are) and since England is against the common European Army (but then must be relying on NATO), you also MUST have an opinion how this new world order is to be since WW2 ended and since Soviet Union was dismantled and since Russia has its interest to re-instate its former force in the global world basically solely by military actions, also threatening England's national borders.
Do note that Putin has stated that NATO is their enemy because of USA being too much in control over NATO involvements. (Please see what I've discussed with Siberian (former Katzap) in this forum).

So, how does your views on the history of the continental Europe is in any relation to the realities we have in this day and age?
Looks more like your "England" is too much stuck in the WW1 and WW2 eras of Europe and is incapable of understanding how much Europe has changed since? You want to stick to the nationalism and want this part of the world to stay that way even though we have already multi-polar world at hand?
Compared to e.g. Norway and Switzerland, what are your profound (historical) strengths that you can rely on with all the technological advances we already have on this planet?

You guess wrong. How predictable. I guess you’re not prepared to accept that I don’t want nationalism as you define it. You’re trying to attach violent nationalism to a country that simply wants to be self-governing, and desperately casting around for reasons to dislike the UK electorate’s decision without offering any sensible reasoning for that dislike, other than remain propaganda. Are you as free with your lofty patronising opinions of other self-governing countries?

No one has ever been harmed in my name, nor in the name of any the other Brexit supporters I know, and I think I probably know far more than you. Decent Brexit supporters are sickened by violence and attach no blame to immigrants simply trying to make the best life for themselves. However, believing that does not mean I must also believe in mass immigration or in the EU’s right to impose its immigration policy on the UK. And if you’re thinking of the murder of Jo Cox, her murderer has not yet been tried, so let’s not jump on the Europhile bandwagon on this and wait to rationally discuss his motivations when we know what they are. One thing’s for sure, he’s no ally of mine. And I have same values as any other decent person.

There’s no nationalistic fervour spreading in England. There is a minority of thugs. Finns, generally being self-supporting and from a similar culture, wouldn’t upset even nasty racist thugs. Though of course they might come in for some fervour from the rest of us if they’re as free with their blinkered opinions about Brexit as you are.

Using the mentally ill to score political points is really cheap. They’re never going to have any power as a group. The idea is ridiculously foolish. I hope you're not suggesting the 17.5 million Brexit supporters, save for possibly a very tiny minority and on the understanding that there are mentally ill people in all walks of life, are mentally ill? Shame on you if you are.

I’ve never had much time for the ‘special relationship’. We’ll have relationships based on mutual interests where they exist with all countries and with the EU (if the EU is sensible). I didn’t say the US would help us at all, and what Obama thinks is irrelevant now he’s almost at the end of his term. The US will act in its own economic and political interests as it always has. I’d expect nothing else. I don’t think much of either Trump or Clinton, although Trump’s rather lukewarm support for Brexit was welcome nevertheless.

I’m living in the same world as you (unfortunately) and Russian naval vessels have often patrolled UK borders. That’s nothing new. And OK, you got me. I can’t wait for a new war. (In reality, the British public is firmly opposed to military action, me included.) The EU, however, thinks it can provoke Russia and Russia will just shrug its shoulders!

Are you seriously suggesting a Common EU foreign policy would protect ‘England’ against any Russian threat? Is that where you’re going with this? For the avoidance of doubt, I trust NATO to keep the peace far more than I trust the EU. If NATO disbands, I hope a new alliance is formed that does not require its partners to cede their independence. The answer to any issues the UK has should never be EU membership. (I’ve no intention of following your other discussions; this one is quite enough, but if you think I really need to know your opinions about other stuff, you can post them here.)

The UK isn’t stuck anywhere. It’s making a long overdue move away from an EU stuck in the 1950s, and towards democracy, but you’re free to move with the EU if you think otherwise of course, just don’t expect the UK to junk what democracy it still has to become more deeply enmeshed in an organisation in which I have such little faith. A lifetime’s insults from Europhiles aren’t going to change that. And I’m not interested in justifying the UK’s strengths to you (which are obvious to most who've seriously considered this issue) knowing how little interest you have in any opinion that doesn't fall in with your prejudices, so you’ll have to wait and see.




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Nan Tucks Ghost

jar
Sep 13 2016, 12:49 PM
W A Mozart
Sep 10 2016, 09:12 AM
Quote:
 
From psychological point of view, I'm not wondering at all that mental illnesses are closely linked to nationalistic behaviour and how it affects people when large number of people are involved.


Mental illness? Because people are afraid of living under a different culture? Burka's on the French Riviera? Sharia Law in the UK?

It would seem that the mental illness comes from years and years of listening to socialist drivel and Marxist dogma. Orwell got it right, ..

Quote:
 
Blackwhite is defined as follows:

this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.

— Orwell, 1984



Mozart
A lot of the violent people who are willing and able to do atrocities in this world, including murders and mass murders with political and value based opinions, is part of how nationalism was born and is again showing to exist in Europe and in the US as well. It's not that far from those people who use their views of religion based extremism to spread the violence. It is no suprise to me that nationalism is at one "end of the circle" facing the other "end of the circle" against religious extremism.


Why do those kind of western people like you obviously refer to here, would be subjected to living under a different culture as you depict with the Sharia Law? Who of the western people would let go of the modern western cultures, the basics and the values of them derived from the past and what those mean and has resulted to in today's world of the western world?

Can you explain yourself what are those western values that you are afraid to lose? Who changes those values so that they "would be lost"? What it takes in a modern western world to change those laws and values to be "closer to what the islamic extremists want of the Sharia Law to exist"?

In EU countries, to what I've lately seen in the statistics, there are about 50M muslims amongst us in over 500M people. How many of those 50M are these extremists wanting Sharia Law to be the only base of laws? Why would the very minority of one of the minority groups/religions be in charge of what base of laws the EU countries should be based on? Which EU country would allow that? How would that single EU country be affected by the EU organizations so that the constitutional basis of the EU would be replaced by the Sharia Law in ANY EU country?


Mozart, I'm spoiling your fun with this post but your should triple-check your medications and continue to wear those dipers :tongue:
No one knows how many Muslims there are in the UK. There are official estimates from a mass immigration supporting establishment. Muslims are a minority now but in the future we don't know. Mrs Merkel's invitation to unlimited numbers of refugees, and her expectation that other member states will take their 'share', has seen to that. Unless religion forms the basis of any census question, I'd say this is the same for all member states.

If you think Muslims won't influence government policies, you're really naive. Sharia law could happen, if not in my lifetime, then certainly in my children's.

A government acting in the national interest could go a long way to stopping this madness.


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Robert Stout
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People have an inalienable right to govern themselves...The bigger the government, the lesser of that right they have...The EU is on steroids from the original "Common Market"...They talk about expelling Hungary for the sin of nationalism...Corporatism is the new nobility that intends to enslave the people... Globalism is the nightmare that will silence the people....The stability promised is not worth the costs....Jar's "evolution" would eventually cause a popular revolution...His thinking would put the world in a sauna.......... :oyvey
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 14 2016, 03:54 PM
You guess wrong. How predictable. I guess you’re not prepared to accept that I don’t want nationalism as you define it. You’re trying to attach violent nationalism to a country that simply wants to be self-governing, and desperately casting around for reasons to dislike the UK electorate’s decision without offering any sensible reasoning for that dislike, other than remain propaganda. Are you as free with your lofty patronising opinions of other self-governing countries?

No one has ever been harmed in my name, nor in the name of any the other Brexit supporters I know, and I think I probably know far more than you. Decent Brexit supporters are sickened by violence and attach no blame to immigrants simply trying to make the best life for themselves. However, believing that does not mean I must also believe in mass immigration or in the EU’s right to impose its immigration policy on the UK. And if you’re thinking of the murder of Jo Cox, her murderer has not yet been tried, so let’s not jump on the Europhile bandwagon on this and wait to rationally discuss his motivations when we know what they are. One thing’s for sure, he’s no ally of mine. And I have same values as any other decent person.

There’s no nationalistic fervour spreading in England. There is a minority of thugs. Finns, generally being self-supporting and from a similar culture, wouldn’t upset even nasty racist thugs. Though of course they might come in for some fervour from the rest of us if they’re as free with their blinkered opinions about Brexit as you are.

Using the mentally ill to score political points is really cheap. They’re never going to have any power as a group. The idea is ridiculously foolish. I hope you're not suggesting the 17.5 million Brexit supporters, save for possibly a very tiny minority and on the understanding that there are mentally ill people in all walks of life, are mentally ill? Shame on you if you are.

I’ve never had much time for the ‘special relationship’. We’ll have relationships based on mutual interests where they exist with all countries and with the EU (if the EU is sensible). I didn’t say the US would help us at all, and what Obama thinks is irrelevant now he’s almost at the end of his term. The US will act in its own economic and political interests as it always has. I’d expect nothing else. I don’t think much of either Trump or Clinton, although Trump’s rather lukewarm support for Brexit was welcome nevertheless.

I’m living in the same world as you (unfortunately) and Russian naval vessels have often patrolled UK borders. That’s nothing new. And OK, you got me. I can’t wait for a new war. (In reality, the British public is firmly opposed to military action, me included.) The EU, however, thinks it can provoke Russia and Russia will just shrug its shoulders!

Are you seriously suggesting a Common EU foreign policy would protect ‘England’ against any Russian threat? Is that where you’re going with this? For the avoidance of doubt, I trust NATO to keep the peace far more than I trust the EU. If NATO disbands, I hope a new alliance is formed that does not require its partners to cede their independence. The answer to any issues the UK has should never be EU membership. (I’ve no intention of following your other discussions; this one is quite enough, but if you think I really need to know your opinions about other stuff, you can post them here.)

The UK isn’t stuck anywhere. It’s making a long overdue move away from an EU stuck in the 1950s, and towards democracy, but you’re free to move with the EU if you think otherwise of course, just don’t expect the UK to junk what democracy it still has to become more deeply enmeshed in an organisation in which I have such little faith. A lifetime’s insults from Europhiles aren’t going to change that. And I’m not interested in justifying the UK’s strengths to you (which are obvious to most who've seriously considered this issue) knowing how little interest you have in any opinion that doesn't fall in with your prejudices, so you’ll have to wait and see.




I'll respond to your post later in detail, but in the meantime, please give yourself an ideological freedom to read through these few articles and a publication from a UK thinktank (I assume you know what those kind of organizations are existing for):

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-europe-eu-referendum-nationalism-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-middle-east-sectarianism-a7114086.html

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/22/inside-the-violent-rise-of-british-nationalism/


http://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/06/Is%20there%20an%20English%20Nationalism%20Apr2011_1838.pdf?noredirect=1
In this publication, note also about the predictions of the possibilities of the breakup of the UK (published in 2011).
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Robert Stout
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jar
Sep 17 2016, 12:23 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 14 2016, 03:54 PM
You guess wrong. How predictable. I guess you’re not prepared to accept that I don’t want nationalism as you define it. You’re trying to attach violent nationalism to a country that simply wants to be self-governing, and desperately casting around for reasons to dislike the UK electorate’s decision without offering any sensible reasoning for that dislike, other than remain propaganda. Are you as free with your lofty patronising opinions of other self-governing countries?

No one has ever been harmed in my name, nor in the name of any the other Brexit supporters I know, and I think I probably know far more than you. Decent Brexit supporters are sickened by violence and attach no blame to immigrants simply trying to make the best life for themselves. However, believing that does not mean I must also believe in mass immigration or in the EU’s right to impose its immigration policy on the UK. And if you’re thinking of the murder of Jo Cox, her murderer has not yet been tried, so let’s not jump on the Europhile bandwagon on this and wait to rationally discuss his motivations when we know what they are. One thing’s for sure, he’s no ally of mine. And I have same values as any other decent person.

There’s no nationalistic fervour spreading in England. There is a minority of thugs. Finns, generally being self-supporting and from a similar culture, wouldn’t upset even nasty racist thugs. Though of course they might come in for some fervour from the rest of us if they’re as free with their blinkered opinions about Brexit as you are.

Using the mentally ill to score political points is really cheap. They’re never going to have any power as a group. The idea is ridiculously foolish. I hope you're not suggesting the 17.5 million Brexit supporters, save for possibly a very tiny minority and on the understanding that there are mentally ill people in all walks of life, are mentally ill? Shame on you if you are.

I’ve never had much time for the ‘special relationship’. We’ll have relationships based on mutual interests where they exist with all countries and with the EU (if the EU is sensible). I didn’t say the US would help us at all, and what Obama thinks is irrelevant now he’s almost at the end of his term. The US will act in its own economic and political interests as it always has. I’d expect nothing else. I don’t think much of either Trump or Clinton, although Trump’s rather lukewarm support for Brexit was welcome nevertheless.

I’m living in the same world as you (unfortunately) and Russian naval vessels have often patrolled UK borders. That’s nothing new. And OK, you got me. I can’t wait for a new war. (In reality, the British public is firmly opposed to military action, me included.) The EU, however, thinks it can provoke Russia and Russia will just shrug its shoulders!

Are you seriously suggesting a Common EU foreign policy would protect ‘England’ against any Russian threat? Is that where you’re going with this? For the avoidance of doubt, I trust NATO to keep the peace far more than I trust the EU. If NATO disbands, I hope a new alliance is formed that does not require its partners to cede their independence. The answer to any issues the UK has should never be EU membership. (I’ve no intention of following your other discussions; this one is quite enough, but if you think I really need to know your opinions about other stuff, you can post them here.)

The UK isn’t stuck anywhere. It’s making a long overdue move away from an EU stuck in the 1950s, and towards democracy, but you’re free to move with the EU if you think otherwise of course, just don’t expect the UK to junk what democracy it still has to become more deeply enmeshed in an organisation in which I have such little faith. A lifetime’s insults from Europhiles aren’t going to change that. And I’m not interested in justifying the UK’s strengths to you (which are obvious to most who've seriously considered this issue) knowing how little interest you have in any opinion that doesn't fall in with your prejudices, so you’ll have to wait and see.




I'll respond to your post later in detail, but in the meantime, please give yourself an ideological freedom to read through these few articles and a publication from a UK thinktank (I assume you know what those kind of organizations are existing for):

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-europe-eu-referendum-nationalism-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-middle-east-sectarianism-a7114086.html

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/22/inside-the-violent-rise-of-british-nationalism/


http://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/06/Is%20there%20an%20English%20Nationalism%20Apr2011_1838.pdf?noredirect=1
In this publication, note also about the predictions of the possibilities of the breakup of the UK (published in 2011).

Whenever someone says "inevitable", you know they are grasping at straw as their argument sinks further into the quicksand of reality.......... :dunno:
Edited by Robert Stout, Sep 17 2016, 12:37 PM.
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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Nan Tucks Ghost

jar
Sep 17 2016, 12:23 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 14 2016, 03:54 PM
You guess wrong. How predictable. I guess you’re not prepared to accept that I don’t want nationalism as you define it. You’re trying to attach violent nationalism to a country that simply wants to be self-governing, and desperately casting around for reasons to dislike the UK electorate’s decision without offering any sensible reasoning for that dislike, other than remain propaganda. Are you as free with your lofty patronising opinions of other self-governing countries?

No one has ever been harmed in my name, nor in the name of any the other Brexit supporters I know, and I think I probably know far more than you. Decent Brexit supporters are sickened by violence and attach no blame to immigrants simply trying to make the best life for themselves. However, believing that does not mean I must also believe in mass immigration or in the EU’s right to impose its immigration policy on the UK. And if you’re thinking of the murder of Jo Cox, her murderer has not yet been tried, so let’s not jump on the Europhile bandwagon on this and wait to rationally discuss his motivations when we know what they are. One thing’s for sure, he’s no ally of mine. And I have same values as any other decent person.

There’s no nationalistic fervour spreading in England. There is a minority of thugs. Finns, generally being self-supporting and from a similar culture, wouldn’t upset even nasty racist thugs. Though of course they might come in for some fervour from the rest of us if they’re as free with their blinkered opinions about Brexit as you are.

Using the mentally ill to score political points is really cheap. They’re never going to have any power as a group. The idea is ridiculously foolish. I hope you're not suggesting the 17.5 million Brexit supporters, save for possibly a very tiny minority and on the understanding that there are mentally ill people in all walks of life, are mentally ill? Shame on you if you are.

I’ve never had much time for the ‘special relationship’. We’ll have relationships based on mutual interests where they exist with all countries and with the EU (if the EU is sensible). I didn’t say the US would help us at all, and what Obama thinks is irrelevant now he’s almost at the end of his term. The US will act in its own economic and political interests as it always has. I’d expect nothing else. I don’t think much of either Trump or Clinton, although Trump’s rather lukewarm support for Brexit was welcome nevertheless.

I’m living in the same world as you (unfortunately) and Russian naval vessels have often patrolled UK borders. That’s nothing new. And OK, you got me. I can’t wait for a new war. (In reality, the British public is firmly opposed to military action, me included.) The EU, however, thinks it can provoke Russia and Russia will just shrug its shoulders!

Are you seriously suggesting a Common EU foreign policy would protect ‘England’ against any Russian threat? Is that where you’re going with this? For the avoidance of doubt, I trust NATO to keep the peace far more than I trust the EU. If NATO disbands, I hope a new alliance is formed that does not require its partners to cede their independence. The answer to any issues the UK has should never be EU membership. (I’ve no intention of following your other discussions; this one is quite enough, but if you think I really need to know your opinions about other stuff, you can post them here.)

The UK isn’t stuck anywhere. It’s making a long overdue move away from an EU stuck in the 1950s, and towards democracy, but you’re free to move with the EU if you think otherwise of course, just don’t expect the UK to junk what democracy it still has to become more deeply enmeshed in an organisation in which I have such little faith. A lifetime’s insults from Europhiles aren’t going to change that. And I’m not interested in justifying the UK’s strengths to you (which are obvious to most who've seriously considered this issue) knowing how little interest you have in any opinion that doesn't fall in with your prejudices, so you’ll have to wait and see.




I'll respond to your post later in detail, but in the meantime, please give yourself an ideological freedom to read through these few articles and a publication from a UK thinktank (I assume you know what those kind of organizations are existing for):

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-europe-eu-referendum-nationalism-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-middle-east-sectarianism-a7114086.html

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/22/inside-the-violent-rise-of-british-nationalism/


http://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/06/Is%20there%20an%20English%20Nationalism%20Apr2011_1838.pdf?noredirect=1
In this publication, note also about the predictions of the possibilities of the breakup of the UK (published in 2011).
Jar, these arguments formed a large part of the remain campaign’s arguments. We heard them ad nauseam throughout the referendum campaign. They didn’t persuade the electorate who recognised them, as arguments against Brexit, for the nonsense they are!

You're wasting your time; I think I've already told you I've heard all the EU supporting arguments.

Opinion polls in Scotland are against leaving the UK, so the breakup of the UK looks unlikely. I don’t want the UK to break up, but if Scotland does choose to leave, it’s Scotland’s prerogative to do so. If the price of keeping Scotland in the UK is EU membership it’s far too high. Like I said, the answer to a problem in the UK is never going to be EU membership.
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Robert Stout
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The EU has become a rejected suitor who can't take no for an answer and becomes a stalker............ :dunno:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 14 2016, 03:54 PM
You guess wrong. How predictable. I guess you’re not prepared to accept that I don’t want nationalism as you define it. You’re trying to attach violent nationalism to a country that simply wants to be self-governing, and desperately casting around for reasons to dislike the UK electorate’s decision without offering any sensible reasoning for that dislike, other than remain propaganda. Are you as free with your lofty patronising opinions of other self-governing countries?

No one has ever been harmed in my name, nor in the name of any the other Brexit supporters I know, and I think I probably know far more than you. Decent Brexit supporters are sickened by violence and attach no blame to immigrants simply trying to make the best life for themselves. However, believing that does not mean I must also believe in mass immigration or in the EU’s right to impose its immigration policy on the UK. And if you’re thinking of the murder of Jo Cox, her murderer has not yet been tried, so let’s not jump on the Europhile bandwagon on this and wait to rationally discuss his motivations when we know what they are. One thing’s for sure, he’s no ally of mine. And I have same values as any other decent person.

There’s no nationalistic fervour spreading in England. There is a minority of thugs. Finns, generally being self-supporting and from a similar culture, wouldn’t upset even nasty racist thugs. Though of course they might come in for some fervour from the rest of us if they’re as free with their blinkered opinions about Brexit as you are.

Using the mentally ill to score political points is really cheap. They’re never going to have any power as a group. The idea is ridiculously foolish. I hope you're not suggesting the 17.5 million Brexit supporters, save for possibly a very tiny minority and on the understanding that there are mentally ill people in all walks of life, are mentally ill? Shame on you if you are.

I’ve never had much time for the ‘special relationship’. We’ll have relationships based on mutual interests where they exist with all countries and with the EU (if the EU is sensible). I didn’t say the US would help us at all, and what Obama thinks is irrelevant now he’s almost at the end of his term. The US will act in its own economic and political interests as it always has. I’d expect nothing else. I don’t think much of either Trump or Clinton, although Trump’s rather lukewarm support for Brexit was welcome nevertheless.

I’m living in the same world as you (unfortunately) and Russian naval vessels have often patrolled UK borders. That’s nothing new. And OK, you got me. I can’t wait for a new war. (In reality, the British public is firmly opposed to military action, me included.) The EU, however, thinks it can provoke Russia and Russia will just shrug its shoulders!

Are you seriously suggesting a Common EU foreign policy would protect ‘England’ against any Russian threat? Is that where you’re going with this? For the avoidance of doubt, I trust NATO to keep the peace far more than I trust the EU. If NATO disbands, I hope a new alliance is formed that does not require its partners to cede their independence. The answer to any issues the UK has should never be EU membership. (I’ve no intention of following your other discussions; this one is quite enough, but if you think I really need to know your opinions about other stuff, you can post them here.)

The UK isn’t stuck anywhere. It’s making a long overdue move away from an EU stuck in the 1950s, and towards democracy, but you’re free to move with the EU if you think otherwise of course, just don’t expect the UK to junk what democracy it still has to become more deeply enmeshed in an organisation in which I have such little faith. A lifetime’s insults from Europhiles aren’t going to change that. And I’m not interested in justifying the UK’s strengths to you (which are obvious to most who've seriously considered this issue) knowing how little interest you have in any opinion that doesn't fall in with your prejudices, so you’ll have to wait and see.




So, you're the one's who don't want to face the realities of human cultures how nationalism was born in the history but want to see only the positive things of that ism. Also, you seemingly to want to believe that British nationalism is somehow superior to that of the other nations, most likely including Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland, and in some respect also Wales according to the news I've read since Brexit voting was started to be widely discussed in the news.

So, I think you take only a small part of this very simple definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism

This does NOT comply to you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism and http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriotism


All these must be bollocks publications (including Human Rights) and news, then:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/09/05/britains-brexit-hate-crime-problem
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/24/nigel-farage-donald-trump-rally-hillary-clinton
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/18/new-ukip-leader-diane-james-says-vladimir-putin-is-one-of-her-he/

(I think these news are too complicated for you to understand how these are related to universal human behaviour patterns in regards to values such as nationalism.)

You also "nicely forget" that nationalism has been well on the rise almost all over Europe and in the US. We see news every single day how that has changed certain people's behaviour to more aggressive, even affecting major politicians and certain political parties deriving their strenghts on well known nationalistic values.

I see also that you don't want to re-evaluate anything in regards to NATO and the changed world since the end of the WW2. I find it too difficult for you to search information of the EU Common Defence Policy, on what values it is bound to in regards of the EU constitution.

Sorry, just your naivety on this whole subject is so obvious, including your immense propaganda based hatred towards the EU (in which Britain has previously had strong affect in the principals of the values written in the EU constitutions such as human rights).

Anyway, you will keep reading only the news you want to hear and accept only a very simple view of the world and life in this planet of ours, so I'm not a person to be able to help you in your personal problems (which are obvious).


BTW, I'm pushing towards 50 years in my life in a few years... May I ask how old are you?
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 18 2016, 04:44 PM
jar
Sep 17 2016, 12:23 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 14 2016, 03:54 PM
You guess wrong. How predictable. I guess you’re not prepared to accept that I don’t want nationalism as you define it. You’re trying to attach violent nationalism to a country that simply wants to be self-governing, and desperately casting around for reasons to dislike the UK electorate’s decision without offering any sensible reasoning for that dislike, other than remain propaganda. Are you as free with your lofty patronising opinions of other self-governing countries?

No one has ever been harmed in my name, nor in the name of any the other Brexit supporters I know, and I think I probably know far more than you. Decent Brexit supporters are sickened by violence and attach no blame to immigrants simply trying to make the best life for themselves. However, believing that does not mean I must also believe in mass immigration or in the EU’s right to impose its immigration policy on the UK. And if you’re thinking of the murder of Jo Cox, her murderer has not yet been tried, so let’s not jump on the Europhile bandwagon on this and wait to rationally discuss his motivations when we know what they are. One thing’s for sure, he’s no ally of mine. And I have same values as any other decent person.

There’s no nationalistic fervour spreading in England. There is a minority of thugs. Finns, generally being self-supporting and from a similar culture, wouldn’t upset even nasty racist thugs. Though of course they might come in for some fervour from the rest of us if they’re as free with their blinkered opinions about Brexit as you are.

Using the mentally ill to score political points is really cheap. They’re never going to have any power as a group. The idea is ridiculously foolish. I hope you're not suggesting the 17.5 million Brexit supporters, save for possibly a very tiny minority and on the understanding that there are mentally ill people in all walks of life, are mentally ill? Shame on you if you are.

I’ve never had much time for the ‘special relationship’. We’ll have relationships based on mutual interests where they exist with all countries and with the EU (if the EU is sensible). I didn’t say the US would help us at all, and what Obama thinks is irrelevant now he’s almost at the end of his term. The US will act in its own economic and political interests as it always has. I’d expect nothing else. I don’t think much of either Trump or Clinton, although Trump’s rather lukewarm support for Brexit was welcome nevertheless.

I’m living in the same world as you (unfortunately) and Russian naval vessels have often patrolled UK borders. That’s nothing new. And OK, you got me. I can’t wait for a new war. (In reality, the British public is firmly opposed to military action, me included.) The EU, however, thinks it can provoke Russia and Russia will just shrug its shoulders!

Are you seriously suggesting a Common EU foreign policy would protect ‘England’ against any Russian threat? Is that where you’re going with this? For the avoidance of doubt, I trust NATO to keep the peace far more than I trust the EU. If NATO disbands, I hope a new alliance is formed that does not require its partners to cede their independence. The answer to any issues the UK has should never be EU membership. (I’ve no intention of following your other discussions; this one is quite enough, but if you think I really need to know your opinions about other stuff, you can post them here.)

The UK isn’t stuck anywhere. It’s making a long overdue move away from an EU stuck in the 1950s, and towards democracy, but you’re free to move with the EU if you think otherwise of course, just don’t expect the UK to junk what democracy it still has to become more deeply enmeshed in an organisation in which I have such little faith. A lifetime’s insults from Europhiles aren’t going to change that. And I’m not interested in justifying the UK’s strengths to you (which are obvious to most who've seriously considered this issue) knowing how little interest you have in any opinion that doesn't fall in with your prejudices, so you’ll have to wait and see.




I'll respond to your post later in detail, but in the meantime, please give yourself an ideological freedom to read through these few articles and a publication from a UK thinktank (I assume you know what those kind of organizations are existing for):

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-europe-eu-referendum-nationalism-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-middle-east-sectarianism-a7114086.html

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/22/inside-the-violent-rise-of-british-nationalism/


http://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/06/Is%20there%20an%20English%20Nationalism%20Apr2011_1838.pdf?noredirect=1
In this publication, note also about the predictions of the possibilities of the breakup of the UK (published in 2011).
Jar, these arguments formed a large part of the remain campaign’s arguments. We heard them ad nauseam throughout the referendum campaign. They didn’t persuade the electorate who recognised them, as arguments against Brexit, for the nonsense they are!

You're wasting your time; I think I've already told you I've heard all the EU supporting arguments.

Opinion polls in Scotland are against leaving the UK, so the breakup of the UK looks unlikely. I don’t want the UK to break up, but if Scotland does choose to leave, it’s Scotland’s prerogative to do so. If the price of keeping Scotland in the UK is EU membership it’s far too high. Like I said, the answer to a problem in the UK is never going to be EU membership.
As I already stated in the post I just answered above (I didn't read this post I'm quoting to before answering to your previous post), you are not in this forum to learn anything about life on this planet.

I hope I will never ever turn to the likes of you as a person in this planet.
You know my age now, so unless I have a brain damage in my later years (which one will never be able to 100% avoid), we will have absolutely nothing in common as living persons in western countries. :tongue:

Do you know the basics of western countries, our values, our histories and how they came to be, and how we can share these thoughts and values in this kind of forum?

(I understand lots of your values but you refuse to accept anything of mine and including the realities of the values you are holding to...)




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