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EU referendum results live: Brexit most likely outcome says leading pollster
Topic Started: Jun 23 2016, 09:09 PM (12,014 Views)
jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Robert Stout
Sep 18 2016, 11:12 PM
The EU has become a rejected suitor who can't take no for an answer and becomes a stalker............ :dunno:
:moonbat:
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Siberian
Sep 13 2016, 12:59 PM
lol, Jar, you are just in time :lol:
you are welcome to comment here on the Western values :)
such as double standards and censorship - to start with.
since the original topic on WADA was closed, you can do it here

http://unitedstates.com/topic/10006670/1/
You can always start writing in some Finnish forums (multiple languages are allowed), which are more open than this one :)
Foul language is used in such forums, but you'll be the target as well as those are mostly very nationalistic in nature (any surprise there?).

You have to discover those yourself.
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Nan Tucks Ghost

jar
Sep 21 2016, 01:14 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 18 2016, 04:44 PM
jar
Sep 17 2016, 12:23 PM
Jar, these arguments formed a large part of the remain campaign’s arguments. We heard them ad nauseam throughout the referendum campaign. They didn’t persuade the electorate who recognised them, as arguments against Brexit, for the nonsense they are!

You're wasting your time; I think I've already told you I've heard all the EU supporting arguments.

Opinion polls in Scotland are against leaving the UK, so the breakup of the UK looks unlikely. I don’t want the UK to break up, but if Scotland does choose to leave, it’s Scotland’s prerogative to do so. If the price of keeping Scotland in the UK is EU membership it’s far too high. Like I said, the answer to a problem in the UK is never going to be EU membership.
As I already stated in the post I just answered above (I didn't read this post I'm quoting to before answering to your previous post), you are not in this forum to learn anything about life on this planet.

I hope I will never ever turn to the likes of you as a person in this planet.
You know my age now, so unless I have a brain damage in my later years (which one will never be able to 100% avoid), we will have absolutely nothing in common as living persons in western countries. :tongue:

Do you know the basics of western countries, our values, our histories and how they came to be, and how we can share these thoughts and values in this kind of forum?

(I understand lots of your values but you refuse to accept anything of mine and including the realities of the values you are holding to...)




Well I want to live in peace with my neighbours, whether they’re next door or in the next country, I’m a responsible citizen, married mother of four lively well behaved children, I have lots of good friends (and we discuss politics a lot and often disagree, but that doesn’t stop us being good friends and respecting each friend’s views), I’m good mannered, I donate to charities, I’m considerate towards others, I have compassion for those less able than me, I work hard for my living and I pay my taxes, I uphold the law and I recycle as much as I can. I don't know what your 'values' are, and nor do I particularly want to! But are you really so sure your values are better than mine? Do you actually think being an EU supporter makes you a better person? It seems to me, curiously, that you do. :shakeshead:

You’re right though, I’m not here to learn about ‘life on this planet’. I doubt anyone uses online current affair forums to learn about life. We come here to hear other people’s views and we enjoy the debates, not to be lectured by people who curiously think they’re better than their opponents.
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Nan Tucks Ghost

jar
Sep 21 2016, 01:02 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 14 2016, 03:54 PM
You guess wrong. How predictable. I guess you’re not prepared to accept that I don’t want nationalism as you define it. You’re trying to attach violent nationalism to a country that simply wants to be self-governing, and desperately casting around for reasons to dislike the UK electorate’s decision without offering any sensible reasoning for that dislike, other than remain propaganda. Are you as free with your lofty patronising opinions of other self-governing countries?

No one has ever been harmed in my name, nor in the name of any the other Brexit supporters I know, and I think I probably know far more than you. Decent Brexit supporters are sickened by violence and attach no blame to immigrants simply trying to make the best life for themselves. However, believing that does not mean I must also believe in mass immigration or in the EU’s right to impose its immigration policy on the UK. And if you’re thinking of the murder of Jo Cox, her murderer has not yet been tried, so let’s not jump on the Europhile bandwagon on this and wait to rationally discuss his motivations when we know what they are. One thing’s for sure, he’s no ally of mine. And I have same values as any other decent person.

There’s no nationalistic fervour spreading in England. There is a minority of thugs. Finns, generally being self-supporting and from a similar culture, wouldn’t upset even nasty racist thugs. Though of course they might come in for some fervour from the rest of us if they’re as free with their blinkered opinions about Brexit as you are.

Using the mentally ill to score political points is really cheap. They’re never going to have any power as a group. The idea is ridiculously foolish. I hope you're not suggesting the 17.5 million Brexit supporters, save for possibly a very tiny minority and on the understanding that there are mentally ill people in all walks of life, are mentally ill? Shame on you if you are.

I’ve never had much time for the ‘special relationship’. We’ll have relationships based on mutual interests where they exist with all countries and with the EU (if the EU is sensible). I didn’t say the US would help us at all, and what Obama thinks is irrelevant now he’s almost at the end of his term. The US will act in its own economic and political interests as it always has. I’d expect nothing else. I don’t think much of either Trump or Clinton, although Trump’s rather lukewarm support for Brexit was welcome nevertheless.

I’m living in the same world as you (unfortunately) and Russian naval vessels have often patrolled UK borders. That’s nothing new. And OK, you got me. I can’t wait for a new war. (In reality, the British public is firmly opposed to military action, me included.) The EU, however, thinks it can provoke Russia and Russia will just shrug its shoulders!

Are you seriously suggesting a Common EU foreign policy would protect ‘England’ against any Russian threat? Is that where you’re going with this? For the avoidance of doubt, I trust NATO to keep the peace far more than I trust the EU. If NATO disbands, I hope a new alliance is formed that does not require its partners to cede their independence. The answer to any issues the UK has should never be EU membership. (I’ve no intention of following your other discussions; this one is quite enough, but if you think I really need to know your opinions about other stuff, you can post them here.)

The UK isn’t stuck anywhere. It’s making a long overdue move away from an EU stuck in the 1950s, and towards democracy, but you’re free to move with the EU if you think otherwise of course, just don’t expect the UK to junk what democracy it still has to become more deeply enmeshed in an organisation in which I have such little faith. A lifetime’s insults from Europhiles aren’t going to change that. And I’m not interested in justifying the UK’s strengths to you (which are obvious to most who've seriously considered this issue) knowing how little interest you have in any opinion that doesn't fall in with your prejudices, so you’ll have to wait and see.




So, you're the one's who don't want to face the realities of human cultures how nationalism was born in the history but want to see only the positive things of that ism. Also, you seemingly to want to believe that British nationalism is somehow superior to that of the other nations, most likely including Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland, and in some respect also Wales according to the news I've read since Brexit voting was started to be widely discussed in the news.

So, I think you take only a small part of this very simple definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism

This does NOT comply to you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism and http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriotism


All these must be bollocks publications (including Human Rights) and news, then:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/09/05/britains-brexit-hate-crime-problem
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/24/nigel-farage-donald-trump-rally-hillary-clinton
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/18/new-ukip-leader-diane-james-says-vladimir-putin-is-one-of-her-he/

(I think these news are too complicated for you to understand how these are related to universal human behaviour patterns in regards to values such as nationalism.)

You also "nicely forget" that nationalism has been well on the rise almost all over Europe and in the US. We see news every single day how that has changed certain people's behaviour to more aggressive, even affecting major politicians and certain political parties deriving their strenghts on well known nationalistic values.

I see also that you don't want to re-evaluate anything in regards to NATO and the changed world since the end of the WW2. I find it too difficult for you to search information of the EU Common Defence Policy, on what values it is bound to in regards of the EU constitution.

Sorry, just your naivety on this whole subject is so obvious, including your immense propaganda based hatred towards the EU (in which Britain has previously had strong affect in the principals of the values written in the EU constitutions such as human rights).

Anyway, you will keep reading only the news you want to hear and accept only a very simple view of the world and life in this planet of ours, so I'm not a person to be able to help you in your personal problems (which are obvious).


BTW, I'm pushing towards 50 years in my life in a few years... May I ask how old are you?
No, Jar, you have it wrong yet again. Murderous regimes in the past do not mean an independent UK will be anything other than peaceful, just like most of the world’s independent countries. And where have I ever given you any indication that I think that the UK, or any part thereof, is more superior to any other country or region anywhere. Quote me in such a way as to illustrate your claim or just drop the nasty, unfounded, small minded accusations.

I haven’t said there’s no racism in the UK, of course there is. Racism is everywhere. But you believe racism (or ‘nationalistic fervour’) in the UK is growing across the UK because of the Brexit vote because internationalist organisations say it is and you think I'm naïve???

Perhaps it might help you to understand the racism debate in the UK if you know that EU supporters have long since tried to label all non EU supporters as racists. This does mean hundreds of thousands of people have been labelled as racists despite them never having uttered anything racist, let alone acted in any racist way. (It might help you to understand further to know that recently the criteria of a racist or hate incidence has widened considerably. Now someone can simply overhear something which they perceive to be racist and once reported to the police has to be recorded as a hate or racist incident, and logged with the EU which monitors these incidents for its statistics, without any investigation at all having taken place, hence the huge ‘increase’ in racism. It’s been a gift to the EU and its most manic supporters.) The term 'racist' is now applied so widely as to be meaningless in the UK now. Contrast this with the widespread treatment of victims of sexual grooming by mainly Asian men which was ignored for years to avoid upsetting racial sensibilities. I can supply links if you have not heard about this before?

I’m not sure why you posted the Trump/Farage and James/Putin links. It looks to me like you’ve had your normal knee jerk reaction and your brain fizzed before you had a chance to think, but please explain if you wish.

I didn’t forget that nationalists have been on the rise across Europe, but shouldn’t you be looking to the EU for an explanation for that? The UK certainly isn’t responsible its rise across Europe. No UK politician has encouraged violence towards anyone.

Please don’t search for anything NATO or EU related. It’s not necessary as I’ve done my own research. My opposition is based on listening to a whole raft of voices and sources on both sides. If you don’t believe that, it’s your problem, not mine. And European human rights are now deeply politicised and have come a long, long way from the days when the UK had a huge role in writing and setting up the ECHR in the wake of the atrocities of WW2.
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 21 2016, 03:26 PM
jar
Sep 21 2016, 01:14 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 18 2016, 04:44 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep For the avoidance of doubt,https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-europe-eu-referendum-nationalism-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-middle-east-sectarianism-a7114086.html

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/22/inside-the-violent-rise-of-british-nationalism/


http://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/06/Is%20there%20an%20English%20Nationalism%20Apr2011_1838.pdf?noredirect=1ad nauseam throughout the referendum campaign. They didn’t persuade the electorate who recognised them, as arguments against Brexit, for the nonsense they are!

You're wasting your time; I think I've already told you I've heard all the EU supporting arguments.

Opinion polls in Scotland are against leaving the UK, so the breakup of the UK looks unlikely. I don’t want the UK to break up, but if Scotland does choose to leave, it’s Scotland’s prerogative to do so. If the price of keeping Scotland in the UK is EU membership it’s far too high. Like I said, the answer to a problem in the UK is never going to be EU membership.
As I already stated in the post I just answered above (I didn't read this post I'm quoting to before answering to your previous post), you are not in this forum to learn anything about life on this planet.

I hope I will never ever turn to the likes of you as a person in this planet.
You know my age now, so unless I have a brain damage in my later years (which one will never be able to 100% avoid), we will have absolutely nothing in common as living persons in western countries. :tongue:

Do you know the basics of western countries, our values, our histories and how they came to be, and how we can share these thoughts and values in this kind of forum?

(I understand lots of your values but you refuse to accept anything of mine and including the realities of the values you are holding to...)




Well I want to live in peace with my neighbours, whether they’re next door or in the next country, I’m a responsible citizen, married mother of four lively well behaved children, I have lots of good friends (and we discuss politics a lot and often disagree, but that doesn’t stop us being good friends and respecting each friend’s views), I’m good mannered, I donate to charities, I’m considerate towards others, I have compassion for those less able than me, I work hard for my living and I pay my taxes, I uphold the law and I recycle as much as I can. I don't know what your 'values' are, and nor do I particularly want to! But are you really so sure your values are better than mine? Do you actually think being an EU supporter makes you a better person? It seems to me, curiously, that you do. :shakeshead:

You’re right though, I’m not here to learn about ‘life on this planet’. I doubt anyone uses online current affair forums to learn about life. We come here to hear other people’s views and we enjoy the debates, not to be lectured by people who curiously think they’re better than their opponents.
What does your list of universal values and how they manifest in your personal life have anything to do with this subject we are discussing about? I wasn't asking that at all.
There are about 7.5 billion people living on our planet, and you just expressed what 7 billion of those are like and want to be like (apart from the recycling thing, which is again one of the values brought by western values in the very modern age, where the 'green' parties around the western world have had a major influence on during just past few decades).

So basically, you just want to 'blurt out' your thoughts and views in here without ever taking a glimpse at yourself what are actually the values behind your own thoughts and views? To learn more about yourself, eh?

And maybe, when you learn something about yourself, you are able to see past that narrow-minded ism you are constantly expressing in this forum with the EU hatred, as a part of your need for some so called social media rage, eh? ;)

(I'm waiting a response from you to this before answering to the other post...)
Edited by jar, Sep 23 2016, 11:27 AM.
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Nan Tucks Ghost

jar
Sep 23 2016, 11:25 AM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 21 2016, 03:26 PM
jar
Sep 21 2016, 01:14 PM
Well I want to live in peace with my neighbours, whether they’re next door or in the next country, I’m a responsible citizen, married mother of four lively well behaved children, I have lots of good friends (and we discuss politics a lot and often disagree, but that doesn’t stop us being good friends and respecting each friend’s views), I’m good mannered, I donate to charities, I’m considerate towards others, I have compassion for those less able than me, I work hard for my living and I pay my taxes, I uphold the law and I recycle as much as I can. I don't know what your 'values' are, and nor do I particularly want to! But are you really so sure your values are better than mine? Do you actually think being an EU supporter makes you a better person? It seems to me, curiously, that you do. :shakeshead:

You’re right though, I’m not here to learn about ‘life on this planet’. I doubt anyone uses online current affair forums to learn about life. We come here to hear other people’s views and we enjoy the debates, not to be lectured by people who curiously think they’re better than their opponents.
What does your list of universal values and how they manifest in your personal life have anything to do with this subject we are discussing about? I wasn't asking that at all.
There are about 7.5 billion people living on our planet, and you just expressed what 7 billion of those are like and want to be like (apart from the recycling thing, which is again one of the values brought by western values in the very modern age, where the 'green' parties around the western world have had a major influence on during just past few decades).

So basically, you just want to 'blurt out' your thoughts and views in here without ever taking a glimpse at yourself what are actually the values behind your own thoughts and views? To learn more about yourself, eh?

And maybe, when you learn something about yourself, you are able to see past that narrow-minded ism you are constantly expressing in this forum with the EU hatred, as a part of your need for some so called social media rage, eh? ;)

(I'm waiting a response from you to this before answering to the other post...)
It was sensible, I thought, to let you know some of my values because you are always banging on about ‘human values’. I already know about myself, and I know that I’m broad minded, and I know that I don’t hate the EU or have any social media rage. You just made that up. Your posts are full of strawman arguments, but I’ll carefully consider any sensible and reasonable arguments based on facts, not dogma, you care to make.

Conversation with you reminds me of a 30 year old Margaret Thatcher quote: “I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.” (She was speaking on Italian television in an interview with the journalist Enzo Biagi.)

Your attacks are not particularly wounding, but the similarities are there nevertheless.

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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 23 2016, 12:27 PM
jar
Sep 23 2016, 11:25 AM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 21 2016, 03:26 PM
What does your list of universal values and how they manifest in your personal life have anything to do with this subject we are discussing about? I wasn't asking that at all.
There are about 7.5 billion people living on our planet, and you just expressed what 7 billion of those are like and want to be like (apart from the recycling thing, which is again one of the values brought by western values in the very modern age, where the 'green' parties around the western world have had a major influence on during just past few decades).

So basically, you just want to 'blurt out' your thoughts and views in here without ever taking a glimpse at yourself what are actually the values behind your own thoughts and views? To learn more about yourself, eh?

And maybe, when you learn something about yourself, you are able to see past that narrow-minded ism you are constantly expressing in this forum with the EU hatred, as a part of your need for some so called social media rage, eh? ;)

(I'm waiting a response from you to this before answering to the other post...)
It was sensible, I thought, to let you know some of my values because you are always banging on about ‘human values’. I already know about myself, and I know that I’m broad minded, and I know that I don’t hate the EU or have any social media rage. You just made that up. Your posts are full of strawman arguments, but I’ll carefully consider any sensible and reasonable arguments based on facts, not dogma, you care to make.

Conversation with you reminds me of a 30 year old Margaret Thatcher quote: “I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.” (She was speaking on Italian television in an interview with the journalist Enzo Biagi.)

Your attacks are not particularly wounding, but the similarities are there nevertheless.

Hmm... Should you read again all your posts about the EU and what you personally have written here why you are supporting Brexit?

Why can't you admit that when we talk about any other country leaving the EU, including Fixit for the people wanting Finland to leave the EU, all of you have very much in common as persons? Or can you admit?
Why don't you allow yourself the freedom to find out these kind of human things yourself? Nothing else except your own self is against of e.g. using online translators to see what other people in other countries are discussing about in local languages (and English is used in some such web sites), to be able to find out what else is there "besides my own websites I'm used to read"?

BTW, using this "straw man argument" has been used by many Finnish persons as well, who are incapable of taking responsibility of their own speeches/writings. Those persons are incapable of admitting that the real problem is somewhere else besides the subjects talked about. It's an easy escape method for the very difficult issues which would mean that you would have to be able to question your values and thoughts yourself, which is what I'm after...
(Having spent about 3 years of my life outside Finnish borders in over 30 countries, and working in an international company has had its affect on 'broadening the horizons' and including e.g. following www.perspectives.com since after the turn of the millennia...) :)

Any particular reason why you are on this discussion board, then? (And which nickname you used before the complete site crash earlier this year? :) )

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Robert Stout
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It seems peculiar that Finns don't think Britain should quit the EU, when Finland seceded from Russia.......... :rollseyes:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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Nan Tucks Ghost

jar
Sep 23 2016, 02:05 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 23 2016, 12:27 PM
jar
Sep 23 2016, 11:25 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep For the avoidance of doubt,https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-europe-eu-referendum-nationalism-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-middle-east-sectarianism-a7114086.html

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/22/inside-the-violent-rise-of-british-nationalism/


http://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/06/Is%20there%20an%20English%20Nationalism%20Apr2011_1838.pdf?noredirect=1ad nauseam throughout the referendum campaign. They didn’t persuade the electorate who recognised them, as arguments against Brexit, for the nonsense they are!

You're wasting your time; I think I've already told you I've heard allabout yourself, eh?

And maybe, when you learn something about yourself, you are able to see past that narrow-minded ism you are constantly expressing in this forum with the EU hatred, as a part of your need for some so called social media rage, eh? ;)

(I'm waiting a response from you to this before answering to the other post...)
It was sensible, I thought, to let you know some of my values because you are always banging on about ‘human values’. I already know about myself, and I know that I’m broad minded, and I know that I don’t hate the EU or have any social media rage. You just made that up. Your posts are full of strawman arguments, but I’ll carefully consider any sensible and reasonable arguments based on facts, not dogma, you care to make.

Conversation with you reminds me of a 30 year old Margaret Thatcher quote: “I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.” (She was speaking on Italian television in an interview with the journalist Enzo Biagi.)

Your attacks are not particularly wounding, but the similarities are there nevertheless.

Hmm... Should you read again all your posts about the EU and what you personally have written here why you are supporting Brexit?

Why can't you admit that when we talk about any other country leaving the EU, including Fixit for the people wanting Finland to leave the EU, all of you have very much in common as persons? Or can you admit?
Why don't you allow yourself the freedom to find out these kind of human things yourself? Nothing else except your own self is against of e.g. using online translators to see what other people in other countries are discussing about in local languages (and English is used in some such web sites), to be able to find out what else is there "besides my own websites I'm used to read"?

BTW, using this "straw man argument" has been used by many Finnish persons as well, who are incapable of taking responsibility of their own speeches/writings. Those persons are incapable of admitting that the real problem is somewhere else besides the subjects talked about. It's an easy escape method for the very difficult issues which would mean that you would have to be able to question your values and thoughts yourself, which is what I'm after...
(Having spent about 3 years of my life outside Finnish borders in over 30 countries, and working in an international company has had its affect on 'broadening the horizons' and including e.g. following www.perspectives.com since after the turn of the millennia...) :)

Any particular reason why you are on this discussion board, then? (And which nickname you used before the complete site crash earlier this year? :) )

I don’t need to re-read my posts. I’m already quite familiar with what I’ve written and I am in no doubt about my reasons for supporting Brexit.

You have a seemingly never ending fixation with trying to associate me with others who wish to leave the EU in other countries. You’re wasting your time. What they do is their choice and they do it for their own reasons. I’ve clearly stated my reasons, and if anyone else has the same reasons for wanting to leave and uses democratic, peaceful means to do it, I’m fine with that. But I have little time for those who can’t put their case rationally (and that being so, it’s perverse that I’m debating with you) and no time for anyone who can’t put their case peacefully. Such people are not on my side, but they’re not for me to deal with whatever they do or say.

Pointing out that you use strawman arguments a lot is perfectly reasonable as it gets quite tedious when you do it so often, as when you tell me Britain can’t fight globalism on its own.

You’ve told me before that you’ve been abroad to work, etc, and I’ve told you I have too, but unlike you I don’t think it gives me any grounds to lecture other nationalities about what should happen in their countries or how their countries should conduct themselves in their international relations. I suppose it's just the hectoring nature of europhiles like you.

See post #363 for an answer as to why I’m here, and my username before the site crashed was ‘Freezin’.

Try this: Britian has shown Germany how to handle a migrant crisis. It's provocative but it might give you a different perspective.
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 25 2016, 12:09 PM
jar
Sep 23 2016, 02:05 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 23 2016, 12:27 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep For the avoidance of doubt,https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-europe-eu-referendum-nationalism-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-middle-east-sectarianism-a7114086.html

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/22/inside-the-violent-rise-of-british-nationalism/


http://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/06/Is%20there%20an%20English%20Nationalism%20Apr2011_1838.pdf?noredirect=1ad nauseam throughout the referendum campaign. They didn’t persuade the electorate who recognised them, as arguments against Brexit, for the nonsense they are!

You're wasting your time; I think I've already told you I've heard allabout yourself“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.” (She was speaking on Italian television in an interview with the journalist Enzo Biagi.)

Your attacks are not particularly wounding, but the similarities are there nevertheless.

Hmm... Should you read again all your posts about the EU and what you personally have written here why you are supporting Brexit?

Why can't you admit that when we talk about any other country leaving the EU, including Fixit for the people wanting Finland to leave the EU, all of you have very much in common as persons? Or can you admit?
Why don't you allow yourself the freedom to find out these kind of human things yourself? Nothing else except your own self is against of e.g. using online translators to see what other people in other countries are discussing about in local languages (and English is used in some such web sites), to be able to find out what else is there "besides my own websites I'm used to read"?

BTW, using this "straw man argument" has been used by many Finnish persons as well, who are incapable of taking responsibility of their own speeches/writings. Those persons are incapable of admitting that the real problem is somewhere else besides the subjects talked about. It's an easy escape method for the very difficult issues which would mean that you would have to be able to question your values and thoughts yourself, which is what I'm after...
(Having spent about 3 years of my life outside Finnish borders in over 30 countries, and working in an international company has had its affect on 'broadening the horizons' and including e.g. following www.perspectives.com since after the turn of the millennia...) :)

Any particular reason why you are on this discussion board, then? (And which nickname you used before the complete site crash earlier this year? :) )

I don’t need to re-read my posts. I’m already quite familiar with what I’ve written and I am in no doubt about my reasons for supporting Brexit.

You have a seemingly never ending fixation with trying to associate me with others who wish to leave the EU in other countries. You’re wasting your time. What they do is their choice and they do it for their own reasons. I’ve clearly stated my reasons, and if anyone else has the same reasons for wanting to leave and uses democratic, peaceful means to do it, I’m fine with that. But I have little time for those who can’t put their case rationally (and that being so, it’s perverse that I’m debating with you) and no time for anyone who can’t put their case peacefully. Such people are not on my side, but they’re not for me to deal with whatever they do or say.

Pointing out that you use strawman arguments a lot is perfectly reasonable as it gets quite tedious when you do it so often, as when you tell me Britain can’t fight globalism on its own.

You’ve told me before that you’ve been abroad to work, etc, and I’ve told you I have too, but unlike you I don’t think it gives me any grounds to lecture other nationalities about what should happen in their countries or how their countries should conduct themselves in their international relations. I suppose it's just the hectoring nature of europhiles like you.

See post #363 for an answer as to why I’m here, and my username before the site crashed was ‘Freezin’.

Try this: Britian has shown Germany how to handle a migrant crisis. It's provocative but it might give you a different perspective.
Conservatism will solve anything, right? :)

Freezin - that figures...

Well, I'd rather live in the real world and see a need to change myself as well according to changing surroundings. The EU has not changed my love to the country where I was born and raised in as it does NOT interfere such values but it DOES question them as nationalism was also a discovery Europe invented some hundreds of years ago. Normal progress of life in this part of the world.

You don't seem to bother yourself with the history of isms and their origins, so anything I have tried to bring about those human culture related issues, are futile. You're not willing to accept such realities.

I will take a look at my own values regarding Brexit in, say 2 to some 10-20 years from now, when we actually have real evidence of how historical decisions have affected Britain and Europe and the entire multipolar world, which will NOT go away.
I don't live my life day-by-day like you (like regarding the immediate economical effects of the Brexit decision) but try to plan a step or two ahead in the longer term.


Questions: Why do you keep posting about the migrant crisis? Is that filling all your life as a single issue? And why is that the most important question also by ANY nationalistic party these days, including those of existing in Finland?
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Robert Stout
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jar
Sep 28 2016, 01:59 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 25 2016, 12:09 PM
jar
Sep 23 2016, 02:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep For the avoidance of doubt,https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-europe-eu-referendum-nationalism-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-middle-east-sectarianism-a7114086.html

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/22/inside-the-violent-rise-of-british-nationalism/


http://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/06/Is%20there%20an%20English%20Nationalism%20Apr2011_1838.pdf?noredirect=1ad nauseam throughout the referendum campaign. They didn’t persuade the electorate who recognised them, as arguments against Brexit, for the nonsense they are!

You're wasting your time; I think I've already told you I've heard allabout yourself“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”
I don’t need to re-read my posts. I’m already quite familiar with what I’ve written and I am in no doubt about my reasons for supporting Brexit.

You have a seemingly never ending fixation with trying to associate me with others who wish to leave the EU in other countries. You’re wasting your time. What they do is their choice and they do it for their own reasons. I’ve clearly stated my reasons, and if anyone else has the same reasons for wanting to leave and uses democratic, peaceful means to do it, I’m fine with that. But I have little time for those who can’t put their case rationally (and that being so, it’s perverse that I’m debating with you) and no time for anyone who can’t put their case peacefully. Such people are not on my side, but they’re not for me to deal with whatever they do or say.

Pointing out that you use strawman arguments a lot is perfectly reasonable as it gets quite tedious when you do it so often, as when you tell me Britain can’t fight globalism on its own.

You’ve told me before that you’ve been abroad to work, etc, and I’ve told you I have too, but unlike you I don’t think it gives me any grounds to lecture other nationalities about what should happen in their countries or how their countries should conduct themselves in their international relations. I suppose it's just the hectoring nature of europhiles like you.

See post #363 for an answer as to why I’m here, and my username before the site crashed was ‘Freezin’.

Try this: Britian has shown Germany how to handle a migrant crisis. It's provocative but it might give you a different perspective.
Conservatism will solve anything, right? :)

Freezin - that figures...

Well, I'd rather live in the real world and see a need to change myself as well according to changing surroundings. The EU has not changed my love to the country where I was born and raised in as it does NOT interfere such values but it DOES question them as nationalism was also a discovery Europe invented some hundreds of years ago. Normal progress of life in this part of the world.

You don't seem to bother yourself with the history of isms and their origins, so anything I have tried to bring about those human culture related issues, are futile. You're not willing to accept such realities.

I will take a look at my own values regarding Brexit in, say 2 to some 10-20 years from now, when we actually have real evidence of how historical decisions have affected Britain and Europe and the entire multipolar world, which will NOT go away.
I don't live my life day-by-day like you (like regarding the immediate economical effects of the Brexit decision) but try to plan a step or two ahead in the longer term.


Questions: Why do you keep posting about the migrant crisis? Is that filling all your life as a single issue? And why is that the most important question also by ANY nationalistic party these days, including those of existing in Finland?
Germany permitted Merkel to make their bed, now they must sleep in it...Globalists promise a new world order of a unified mankind , and all the citizens get are lower wages, higher welfare costs, and daily exposure to primitive savages...One must question who the political whores work for....Certainly not the citizens, who are evil nationalists, working against the financial interests of big banks, multinational corporations, and rich elites...Liberal idealists say internationalism is inevitable as if to comfort them in the superiority of their stupidity...Actually the world trend is toward regionalism, as concepts such as the League of Nations and the UN have confirmed they are only successful at creating more bureaucratic jobs....Perhaps the EU has stretched its region too far, as southern Europe and eastern Europe appear financially and ideologically incompatible with the rest...Europeans are beginning to realize they live in the "Brave New World" created by dark forces........ :euflag:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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Nan Tucks Ghost

Robert Stout
Sep 28 2016, 02:56 PM
jar
Sep 28 2016, 01:59 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 25 2016, 12:09 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep For the avoidance of doubt,https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-europe-eu-referendum-nationalism-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-middle-east-sectarianism-a7114086.html

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/22/inside-the-violent-rise-of-british-nationalism/


http://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/06/Is%20there%20an%20English%20Nationalism%20Apr2011_1838.pdf?noredirect=1ad nauseam throughout the referendum campaign. They didn’t persuade the electorate who recognised them, as arguments against Brexit, for the nonsense they are!

You're wasting your time; I think I've already told you I've heard allabout yourself“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”Britian has shown Germany how to handle a migrant crisis. It's provocative but it might give you a different perspective.
Conservatism will solve anything, right? :)

Freezin - that figures...

Well, I'd rather live in the real world and see a need to change myself as well according to changing surroundings. The EU has not changed my love to the country where I was born and raised in as it does NOT interfere such values but it DOES question them as nationalism was also a discovery Europe invented some hundreds of years ago. Normal progress of life in this part of the world.

You don't seem to bother yourself with the history of isms and their origins, so anything I have tried to bring about those human culture related issues, are futile. You're not willing to accept such realities.

I will take a look at my own values regarding Brexit in, say 2 to some 10-20 years from now, when we actually have real evidence of how historical decisions have affected Britain and Europe and the entire multipolar world, which will NOT go away.
I don't live my life day-by-day like you (like regarding the immediate economical effects of the Brexit decision) but try to plan a step or two ahead in the longer term.


Questions: Why do you keep posting about the migrant crisis? Is that filling all your life as a single issue? And why is that the most important question also by ANY nationalistic party these days, including those of existing in Finland?
Germany permitted Merkel to make their bed, now they must sleep in it...Globalists promise a new world order of a unified mankind , and all the citizens get are lower wages, higher welfare costs, and daily exposure to primitive savages...One must question who the political whores work for....Certainly not the citizens, who are evil nationalists, working against the financial interests of big banks, multinational corporations, and rich elites...Liberal idealists say internationalism is inevitable as if to comfort them in the superiority of their stupidity...Actually the world trend is toward regionalism, as concepts such as the League of Nations and the UN have confirmed they are only successful at creating more bureaucratic jobs....Perhaps the EU has stretched its region too far, as southern Europe and eastern Europe appear financially and ideologically incompatible with the rest...Europeans are beginning to realize they live in the "Brave New World" created by dark forces........ :euflag:
Nothing to disagree with there.

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Nan Tucks Ghost

jar
Sep 28 2016, 01:59 PM
Nan Tucks Ghost
Sep 25 2016, 12:09 PM
jar
Sep 23 2016, 02:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep For the avoidance of doubt,https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-04/brexit-is-an-english-nationalism-thing

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-europe-eu-referendum-nationalism-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-middle-east-sectarianism-a7114086.html

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/22/inside-the-violent-rise-of-british-nationalism/


http://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/06/Is%20there%20an%20English%20Nationalism%20Apr2011_1838.pdf?noredirect=1ad nauseam throughout the referendum campaign. They didn’t persuade the electorate who recognised them, as arguments against Brexit, for the nonsense they are!

You're wasting your time; I think I've already told you I've heard allabout yourself“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”
I don’t need to re-read my posts. I’m already quite familiar with what I’ve written and I am in no doubt about my reasons for supporting Brexit.

You have a seemingly never ending fixation with trying to associate me with others who wish to leave the EU in other countries. You’re wasting your time. What they do is their choice and they do it for their own reasons. I’ve clearly stated my reasons, and if anyone else has the same reasons for wanting to leave and uses democratic, peaceful means to do it, I’m fine with that. But I have little time for those who can’t put their case rationally (and that being so, it’s perverse that I’m debating with you) and no time for anyone who can’t put their case peacefully. Such people are not on my side, but they’re not for me to deal with whatever they do or say.

Pointing out that you use strawman arguments a lot is perfectly reasonable as it gets quite tedious when you do it so often, as when you tell me Britain can’t fight globalism on its own.

You’ve told me before that you’ve been abroad to work, etc, and I’ve told you I have too, but unlike you I don’t think it gives me any grounds to lecture other nationalities about what should happen in their countries or how their countries should conduct themselves in their international relations. I suppose it's just the hectoring nature of europhiles like you.

See post #363 for an answer as to why I’m here, and my username before the site crashed was ‘Freezin’.

Try this: Britian has shown Germany how to handle a migrant crisis. It's provocative but it might give you a different perspective.
Conservatism will solve anything, right? :)

Freezin - that figures...

Well, I'd rather live in the real world and see a need to change myself as well according to changing surroundings. The EU has not changed my love to the country where I was born and raised in as it does NOT interfere such values but it DOES question them as nationalism was also a discovery Europe invented some hundreds of years ago. Normal progress of life in this part of the world.

You don't seem to bother yourself with the history of isms and their origins, so anything I have tried to bring about those human culture related issues, are futile. You're not willing to accept such realities.

I will take a look at my own values regarding Brexit in, say 2 to some 10-20 years from now, when we actually have real evidence of how historical decisions have affected Britain and Europe and the entire multipolar world, which will NOT go away.
I don't live my life day-by-day like you (like regarding the immediate economical effects of the Brexit decision) but try to plan a step or two ahead in the longer term.


Questions: Why do you keep posting about the migrant crisis? Is that filling all your life as a single issue? And why is that the most important question also by ANY nationalistic party these days, including those of existing in Finland?
No one has said being in the EU changes their love for their country or that it interferes with anyone’s values. Strawman argument again.

Thinking, as I do, that the EU does not serve the British electorate's interests, why would I want to remain in it? Professional politicians and commentators, as well as other Europeans, couldn’t sway me. You have more chance of walking on water whilst playing Ode to Joy on a violin!

Why do you keep posting your thoughts about nationalism? Is it the EU or the UK which wants to expand its borders? Think about it. If you think the EU is progress, you live in a funny kind of ‘real world’. Even remain supporters here admit that it needs huge reforms and think that somehow these will happen despite knowing that democracy in a bloc as large and diverse as the EU would mean the EU would become move even more sclerotic than it is now!

I accept reality just as I disagree with your arguments, and you might accept reality, but there’s no indication that you accept that someone can simply have a very different opinion to yours and still not be wrong, and I have never said, or even hinted, that evidence of historical decisions affecting anyone or anything WILL go away. Another strawman.

I don’t live my life from day to day either and plan for the future as well as for the short term. You can stop trying to sound superior. You’re not fooling anyone.

I don’t keep posting about the migrant crisis (though I do think Angela Merkel has a nerve in inviting limitless numbers of Syrian refugees without any agreement from other EU states, then expecting those states to take their 'fair' share. No, Mrs Merkel, you invited them, you deal with them. And no one, least of all me, has said Conservatism solves everything. What about your thoughts on democracy? You don’t seem to have much time for it.

However, mass migration is a huge issue in the UK even if it’s not for you. Our would be pro-EU Socialist prime minister, Jeremy Corbyn, doesn’t want a cap on the numbers of migrants. He does realise parts of the country where he draws most of his support have suffered as a result of mass immigration, but he wants those areas to get millions of pounds in extra funding to help them cope with increased migration (paid for by increasing taxes, of course.) Labour supporting areas were amongst the strongest leave supporting areas and Corbyn no longer represents on this huge issue. Many conservative voters have had similar issues with the Conservative party, but we will see how Theresa's May's government shapes up.
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
Brexit: First and foremost a WTO issue

"Brexit will have far-reaching ramifications for global trade. The WTO needs to step in and analyse how different kinds of trade agreements will be affected and how to avoid unnecessary damage, writes Daniel Guéguen.

Daniel Guéguen is founder and Head of Strategy and Lobbying at PACT European Affairs. This editorial was first published on Guéguen’s BlogActiv blog.

100 days on from the fateful UK referendum, the only thing anyone can agree on is the huge complexity of Brexit. This justifies the wait-and-see approach of the UK government which, by cataloguing the many problems that need to be resolved, is carrying out a kind of giant impact assessment. But one aspect of negotiations seems to have been overlooked or at least under-estimated: the relationship with the World Trade Organisation (WTO)."

Full article:
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/opinion/brexit-first-and-foremost-a-wto-issue/
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
"Britain cannot easily dismiss Japanese Brexit warning letter
If non-EU countries’ economic interests continue to be threatened, 15-page report may well be the first of many warning shots

The Japanese government’s letter setting out its Brexit demands is deeply troubling to the UK since it is clear Japanese companies want Theresa May to negotiate a deal that leaves Britain not just in the EU customs union, and single market, but also retains a free flow of workers between the EU and the UK."

Full article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/04/britain-japanese-brexit-letter-eu
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Nan Tucks Ghost

jar
Sep 29 2016, 02:05 PM
"Britain cannot easily dismiss Japanese Brexit warning letter
If non-EU countries’ economic interests but to be threatened, 15-page report may well be the first of many warning shots

The Japanese government’s letter setting out its Brexit demands is deeply troubling to the UK since it is clear Japanese companies want Theresa May to negotiate a deal that leaves Britain not just in the EU customs union, and single market, but also retains a free flow of workers between the EU and the UK."

Full article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/04/britain-japanese-brexit-letter-eu
We didn't vote to leave the EU to accept instructions from the Japanese.

We'll consider what they say, of course, but act in what we consider to be our best interests, just as we did in refusing to join the euro after Japanese companies decided that we should. Japan runs a substantial trade surplus with the UK. It can jeopardise that trading relationship if it so chooses but no one wins.

And as for your earlier comment ... Daniel Guéguen is an EU lobbyist. It's in his interests to see this as hugely complicated. He says, "the only thing anyone can agree on is the huge complexity of Brexit". He needs to take his head out of the EU trough and listen to his opponents a little more. It's as complicated as you want it to be.

According to europhiles:


  • It's hugely complicated to leave but the UK hasn't lost its sovereignty.

    and

  • The UK is tiny and insignificant but Brexit has far reaching ramifications for global trade.

Can you explain these apparent contradictions, Jar? Europhiles just want the UK to stay in the UK and are posturing because they're not going to get what they want, isn't that right?
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Robert Stout
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There is a vast, well organized, international conspiracy to force the people of Earth to submit to globalization and enrich big banks, multinational corporations, and the already rich elites...They are trying to convince us to surrender to their power as it is inevitable....Their act is neo-feudalism, forgetting the peasants have pitchforks to storm the castle............ :machinegun: :euflag:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
https://www.ft.com/content/63d42778-7273-11e6-bf48-b372cdb1043a

"Barack Obama has reiterated that the UK remains at the back of the queue as Washington seeks major new trade deals, while lamenting June’s Brexit vote and the risk that it might “unravel” the close US business relationship with Britain.
The US president’s comments after a meeting with Theresa May at the G20 summit in China reflected his frustration with Brexit, though he insisted he had never threatened to “punish” the UK if it quit the EU."


I expect news like this will be appearing more and more in the future when Brexit is officially announced and re-negotiations of trade agreements become a reality for UK.


Somebody thought positively though two months ago : http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/24/post-brexit-britain-could-have-a-free-trade-agreement-with-china-before-the-european-union-does/#731a8b2f3aed
:-)
Edited by jar, Sep 30 2016, 01:05 PM.
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Robert Stout
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Smug smiles remind me of Hillary.......... :rollseyes:
Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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jar
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/09/27/fox-slip-up-at-wto-shows-he-has-no-brexit-plan

"The speech Liam Fox made at the WTO today is mostly waffle, but there is one section on Brexit towards the end which is worth paying particular attention to. It suggests that Fox does not understand the basic rules of the international trading system Britain may soon be falling into if it can’t secure a deal with the EU before the end of the Article 50 process"
....

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