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| EU referendum results live: Brexit most likely outcome says leading pollster | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 23 2016, 09:09 PM (12,008 Views) | |
| Robert Stout | Jan 17 2017, 11:16 PM Post #481 |
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The demise of the EU would be a stake in the heart of globalism, with neo-feudal domination by big banks and multinational corporation being severely undermined.............
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| Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid | |
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| jar | Jan 18 2017, 01:52 AM Post #482 |
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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So basically, in your view, the so called western society in the entire human race discovered a few hundred years ago the concept of a modern nation, which is the most holy thing the human race cannot surpass? ![]() Hard core islam supporters refers to that in similar ways that Quran has the holy concepts coming from the god which we people MUST obey and those concepts cannot be questioned, and that we people are just trying to interpret the words and concepts which are holy and eternal. |
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| Robert Stout | Jan 18 2017, 03:10 AM Post #483 |
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Your "European Economic Community" was more recently born under Adolph Hitler and is still dominated by Germany............... :oyvey Edited by Robert Stout, Jan 18 2017, 03:12 AM.
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| Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid | |
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| W A Mozart | Jan 18 2017, 09:25 AM Post #484 |
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The clock is ticking.....it's over. Trump and May will sign a separate trade agreement, and the rest of Europe will look on in disbelief. Mozart |
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| Nan Tucks Ghost | Jan 18 2017, 12:13 PM Post #485 |
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Vintage, Jar! The EU is trying to play a confidence trick. It's losing, and losing with very bad grace. What Theresa May has to do is help the EU to at least save face. Admittedly Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, isn't helping much. She might also consider the possibility of helping make up the shortfall in the EU budget so other member states are cushioned from it (because we can't expect the EU to cut fraud or cut its grandiose spending). This should perhaps be done in stages over not more than five years. In the meantime the UK can look forward to setting its own policies, both domestic and foreign, and you can stay in the EU with its declining share of world trade and narcissistic leadership. I'm sure you'll enjoy that. |
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| George Aligator | Jan 18 2017, 12:38 PM Post #486 |
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No one disputes that the British economy will be weakened by Brexit. It is a price which Britain seems willing to pay in order to gain control over immigration, which many feel is a key step to keeping Britain British. OK so far, but what will happen when the economic slowdown starts to pinch the average Briton? If history is any guide, a majority of British voters will turn to the government for economic redress. If the left can stop stumbling around in a daze and come up with some popular remedies, Labour may return to power. Wouldn't that be a gas? |
| Conservatism is a social disease | |
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| Nan Tucks Ghost | Jan 18 2017, 02:09 PM Post #487 |
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| George Aligator | Jan 18 2017, 04:09 PM Post #488 |
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I don't support Brexit one way or the other. I believe some 45% of British trade is within the EU. That trade isn't going to vanish, but it is going to be more expensive and so shrink a bit. I am skeptical about the PM's idea of free trade around the world because British wages and taxes limit possibilities just as they have in the US. I'm sympathetic wth the working Briton who has seen more and more of the national wealth slide into million pound London flats owned by Russians and Arabs while Eastern Europeans enter looking for jobs. We are getting a somewhat similar squeeze here. I don't claim to have the answer for economies on either side of the Atlantic. I'm not sure there is one. |
| Conservatism is a social disease | |
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| jar | Jan 18 2017, 04:13 PM Post #489 |
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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For those propaganda filled Brexit supporters, who have not really thought anything past the feelings and simplifications of the real world implications: http://voxeu.org/article/brexit-lessons-history |
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| Nan Tucks Ghost | Jan 19 2017, 01:30 PM Post #490 |
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So you didn't vote in the referendum? |
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| George Aligator | Jan 19 2017, 01:47 PM Post #491 |
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Heavens no! I'm a proud citizen and resident of the USA. I must say that, although I disagreed with the outcome of the Brexit vote, I was very favorably impressed by the alacrity with which leaders of all parties obeyed the expressed will of the people. You don't see much of that on this side of the pond. "If voting made a difference, they wouldn't let us do it," Sam Clemens observed. |
| Conservatism is a social disease | |
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| Nan Tucks Ghost | Jan 19 2017, 02:44 PM Post #492 |
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That's funny ... you want to counter 'propaganda filled Brexit supporters' arguments (where are they?) with propaganda filled arguments from someone who is funded by official sources and has even received hundreds of thousands of pounds from the EU. I'd love to know what Nicholas Craft's reasoning for connecting the UK's GDP with EU membership is. The rise in UK GDP was as a result of Margaret Thatcher's reforms, not EU membership. As for the rest, Project Fear still refuses to die despite its predictions being wrong. It didn't convince the majority of voters during the referendum debate. It won't convince anyone now. |
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| Nan Tucks Ghost | Jan 19 2017, 02:48 PM Post #493 |
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Thanks, I'd always assumed you were a Brit after reading the few comments I'd seen of yours. And I don't think the party leaders had much choice in the matter after agreeing to hold the referendum. |
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| Robert Stout | Jan 19 2017, 07:53 PM Post #494 |
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Brit or not...Aligator doesn't quite fit in in America............ :oyvey |
| Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid | |
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| jar | Jan 21 2017, 09:47 AM Post #495 |
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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Viewpoints from a major Finnish newspaper published today (I translated it for you): http://www.hs.fi/paivanlehti/21012017/art-2000005054468.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did May promise too much to Brits? The Iron Lady praised by the press collapses if Brexit flops The British Prime Minister Theresa May lives the golden grace days. The opposition doesn't tease as the Labour Party is as weak as its leader Jeremy Corbyn. May's conservatives are taking over in fresh polls. Voters also liked Prime Minister's Tuesday's Brexit policy speech. According to YouGov company's poll, the majority of Brits supports May's revealed plan of the goals of EU exit. Supporters of EU membership, though are appalled by May's decision to leave union's internal market. However, the channel to be heard of their horror does not exist. The opposition leader Corbyn supports the start of EU exit negotiations. The Prime Minister is now basking in the grace of most read British papers. Brexit speech inspired saucy headlines, in which May was praised as the new Iron Lady of Britain. The papers caught eagerly Prime Minister's warning on Tuesday that EU shoulnd't try to punish Britain for the exit from the union. Even the quality paper The Times turned the warning on its front page to a threat: Britain will crush the EU, if its demands are not heard. The Sun sensation paper in turn attacked against Germans and recommended the last country exiting from the EU to turn off the union lights. The jokey pulled wasn't bothered by the fact that Britain's Brexit decision hasn't caused a mass escape to EU exit door. The exit negotiations by Britain and EU, soon to be started, will be difficult and complex. It is natural, that May raises morale to fight and flexes British muscles. Leverage needs to be taken before the negotiations, so that the opponent would get scared. British style doesn't include to wait in the lobby quietly until they are summoned to the negotiation table. Part of the British press is grounding the negotiation however in a way which cannot be finished to a letdown. A picture is born for the reader that Britain's demands are fair and justified - and the rest EU is mean and vindictive, if it doesn't agree to them. May's speech however confirmed that Britain's objectives are not fair for other EU countries. Britain wants to keep the benefits of the internal market: Free trade and co-operation in the lines of business suitable for her. Obligations Britain wants out of. Goodbye EU membership fee, EU legislation and free immigration of EU citizens. It is impossible to think that the 27 other member states of EU would give up to Brits on everything. It wouldn't be reasonable for their own citizens. Whatever will happen in the Brexit negotiations to be, one thing is for certain: Part of the British press will stamp EU as the guilty party to all letdowns. It is EU's fault, if Britain cannot get "its freedom" with the terms it itself dictates. Fairness of the terms and parties' negotiation positions will be moot points. If the disappointment of the EU exit in regards of reality begins to concrete, it will fall down also on the Prime Minister's neck. The drop from the summit of the Brexit Iron Lady can be fast. May threatened on Tuesday to discard the whole agreement between Britain and the EU, if terms do not please. It is tough talk, liked by the Brits. But if there won't be an agreement, it is likely that May will leave. Own people are not protectors. The conservative government is fragmented and majority scarce in the Parliament. |
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| jar | Jan 21 2017, 09:54 AM Post #496 |
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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Your Brexit is beginning to be like a marriage ending bitterly by the one who leaves, and tries to use immense propaganda machine and lie boldly to the judges in front of a court, trying to rip off everything it can from the other part of the married couple. And that Britain has never ever bothered to listen to a marriage councellor. |
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| Nan Tucks Ghost | Jan 21 2017, 01:18 PM Post #497 |
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Oh, come off it Jar. The immense propaganda machine is with pro EU forces. Things began to even up slightly during the referendum campaign, but only slightly. There is no need for this to end bitterly, but that does seem to be the way the EU wants it. And are we really back to your accusation about lies from the Brexit camp??? And in no way are Brexiters trying to rip anything off anyone. And a marriage counsellor … who would that have been? |
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| Nan Tucks Ghost | Jan 21 2017, 01:34 PM Post #498 |
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Thanks for this translation. If the channel for people who wanted to remain in the EU doesn't exist, how does the newspaper know about their horror? Could it be from newspapers and the broadcast media, that supported remain, not to mention the various social media platforms, are those channels ? And just where is the mass escape to the EU? And the EU hasn't exactly been quiet with its threats? What do you expect ... that we should meekly sit in a corner? It isn't for the EU to summons the UK anyway, it's for the UK to invoke Article 50. What's not fair about free trade??? The EU should be delighted with such an offer. Let's face it ... if the EU wants to impose tariffs on UK goods, the UK will impose tariffs on EU goods. Bring it on if you want to, but think about who would be better off in that eventuality. And the end of free movement applies to both UK and EU. That's sounds perfectly fair. |
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| jar | Jan 28 2017, 02:40 PM Post #499 |
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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I have no idea what you are talking about with this sentence: "And just where is the mass escape to the EU? And the EU hasn't exactly been quiet with its threats? What do you expect ... that we should meekly sit in a corner?" Are you referring to the previous enlargements of the EU? Quick history lesson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_European_Union Do you also mean that "the EU" has been or has not been quiet with GLOBAL threats, including European continent? To me, you are referring the EU as something which has this to solve: "Damn if you, damn if you don't do." Also, this whole situation with invoking Article 50 and regarding the entire world status (including the changes in the US) has caused the Britain to be a bit similar situation which Finland was after WW2 era. I'm referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization There's a saying here that "If you bow to a certain direction, you are bending over to the other direction", meaning that in a majorly bi-polar world, you have to choose your side. I'd say that in today's world, we have a multi-polar world, but in Britain's case, you are showing your butt to Europe but now have only the chance to bow to the US and it's new mentally disturbed and narcissistic leader. Britain is rather on its own, outside from influencing how this part of the world can cope and take its stance in this multi-polar world, and now you are seeking some help majorly from the US, as if trying to repeat this Reagan-Thatcher era status, when the world was more simpler than today (computer networks, global media and the influences of them still very marginal). Also, your PERSONAL attitude with the tariffs situation is so like Mr. Trump has, so I will regard you as a Trumpist, ok? Like I said, Britain decided, completely on it's own (based on years of lying in the press - only to make money for the owners of British press - of what the EU is all about), without the support, pressure and willingness from the other EU countries, to leave the marriage.With the current situation of seeking friends from the rest of world, now bowing to the extremely erratic and nationalistic behaviour of the US, it doesn't look like Britain itself doesn't really want any peaceful negotiation status to begin with to whom it was married to. Instead - outside the US borders - you should seek friends from the countries who are as nationalistic as you want to be (including European countries such as Poland and Hungary, and the populist parties in other European countries such as National Front in France, PVV in the Netherlands, and of course, including The Basic Finns in Finland). Do try to understand from history what nationalism has brought to the human race in reality. FYI: The estimated effects of Brexit for Finland today are not very big but, as for the entire world, we will not know the true effects until Britain has officially exited and for some years after that. I'd say still to you: You picked the wrong day and age (regarding the world status) to separate from a major union. You have only bad choices to choose from, when nationalism has been on the rise once again in Europe as well. You are a victim of that nationalism: Building walls (like the Berlin Wall) rather than trying to work out very problematic issues together. I will not answer to your comments on very detailed issues because you have much more larger and bigger issues to deal with first. If you don't understand those issues, then try to learn about them and be prepared to answer those first. |
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| jar | Jan 28 2017, 02:47 PM Post #500 |
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/george-orwell-1984-alternative-facts-donald-trump-adviser-kellyanne-conway-amazon-sellout-bestseller-a7548666.html Why I'm not surprised, eh? Britain following now these predictions of a British writer after WW2 era in regards of its opposition to the EU, with the NEWSPEAK of the British press, as it wants to destroy true values of democracy? The people of Britain are still very perplexed what the Brexit means and has meant in the reality of us humans, so I'd say 1984 is a very good book to read about the situation. Edited by jar, Jan 28 2017, 02:51 PM.
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- of what the EU is all about), without the support, pressure and willingness from the other EU countries, to leave the marriage.
3:05 PM Jul 11