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EU referendum results live: Brexit most likely outcome says leading pollster
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Topic Started: Jun 23 2016, 09:09 PM (12,007 Views)
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Nan Tucks Ghost
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Jan 30 2017, 03:59 PM
Post #501
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- jar
- Jan 28 2017, 02:40 PM
- Nan Tucks Ghost
- Jan 21 2017, 01:34 PM
- jar
- Jan 21 2017, 09:47 AM
Viewpoints from a major Finnish newspaper published today (I translated it for you): http://www.hs.fi/paivanlehti/21012017/art-2000005054468.html---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did May promise too much to Brits? The Iron Lady praised by the press collapses if Brexit flops The British Prime Minister Theresa May lives the golden grace days. The opposition doesn't tease as the Labour Party is as weak as its leader Jeremy Corbyn. May's conservatives are taking over in fresh polls. Voters also liked Prime Minister's Tuesday's Brexit policy speech. According to YouGov company's poll, the majority of Brits supports May's revealed plan of the goals of EU exit. Supporters of EU membership, though are appalled by May's decision to leave union's internal market. However, the channel to be heard of their horror does not exist. The opposition leader Corbyn supports the start of EU exit negotiations. The Prime Minister is now basking in the grace of most read British papers. Brexit speech inspired saucy headlines, in which May was praised as the new Iron Lady of Britain. The papers caught eagerly Prime Minister's warning on Tuesday that EU shoulnd't try to punish Britain for the exit from the union. Even the quality paper The Times turned the warning on its front page to a threat: Britain will crush the EU, if its demands are not heard. The Sun sensation paper in turn attacked against Germans and recommended the last country exiting from the EU to turn off the union lights. The jokey pulled wasn't bothered by the fact that Britain's Brexit decision hasn't caused a mass escape to EU exit door. The exit negotiations by Britain and EU, soon to be started, will be difficult and complex. It is natural, that May raises morale to fight and flexes British muscles. Leverage needs to be taken before the negotiations, so that the opponent would get scared. British style doesn't include to wait in the lobby quietly until they are summoned to the negotiation table. Part of the British press is grounding the negotiation however in a way which cannot be finished to a letdown. A picture is born for the reader that Britain's demands are fair and justified - and the rest EU is mean and vindictive, if it doesn't agree to them. May's speech however confirmed that Britain's objectives are not fair for other EU countries. Britain wants to keep the benefits of the internal market: Free trade and co-operation in the lines of business suitable for her. Obligations Britain wants out of. Goodbye EU membership fee, EU legislation and free immigration of EU citizens. It is impossible to think that the 27 other member states of EU would give up to Brits on everything. It wouldn't be reasonable for their own citizens. Whatever will happen in the Brexit negotiations to be, one thing is for certain: Part of the British press will stamp EU as the guilty party to all letdowns. It is EU's fault, if Britain cannot get "its freedom" with the terms it itself dictates. Fairness of the terms and parties' negotiation positions will be moot points. If the disappointment of the EU exit in regards of reality begins to concrete, it will fall down also on the Prime Minister's neck. The drop from the summit of the Brexit Iron Lady can be fast. May threatened on Tuesday to discard the whole agreement between Britain and the EU, if terms do not please. It is tough talk, liked by the Brits. But if there won't be an agreement, it is likely that May will leave. Own people are not protectors. The conservative government is fragmented and majority scarce in the Parliament.
Thanks for this translation. If the channel for people who wanted to remain in the EU doesn't exist, how does the newspaper know about their horror? Could it be from newspapers and the broadcast media, that supported remain, not to mention the various social media platforms, are those channels ? And just where is the mass escape to the EU? And the EU hasn't exactly been quiet with its threats? What do you expect ... that we should meekly sit in a corner? It isn't for the EU to summons the UK anyway, it's for the UK to invoke Article 50. What's not fair about free trade??? The EU should be delighted with such an offer. Let's face it ... if the EU wants to impose tariffs on UK goods, the UK will impose tariffs on EU goods. Bring it on if you want to, but think about who would be better off in that eventuality. And the end of free movement applies to both UK and EU. That's sounds perfectly fair.
I have no idea what you are talking about with this sentence: "And just where is the mass escape to the EU? And the EU hasn't exactly been quiet with its threats? What do you expect ... that we should meekly sit in a corner?" Are you referring to the previous enlargements of the EU? Quick history lesson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_European_UnionDo you also mean that "the EU" has been or has not been quiet with GLOBAL threats, including European continent? To me, you are referring the EU as something which has this to solve: "Damn if you, damn if you don't do." Also, this whole situation with invoking Article 50 and regarding the entire world status (including the changes in the US) has caused the Britain to be a bit similar situation which Finland was after WW2 era. I'm referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FinlandizationThere's a saying here that "If you bow to a certain direction, you are bending over to the other direction", meaning that in a majorly bi-polar world, you have to choose your side. I'd say that in today's world, we have a multi-polar world, but in Britain's case, you are showing your butt to Europe but now have only the chance to bow to the US and it's new mentally disturbed and narcissistic leader. Britain is rather on its own, outside from influencing how this part of the world can cope and take its stance in this multi-polar world, and now you are seeking some help majorly from the US, as if trying to repeat this Reagan-Thatcher era status, when the world was more simpler than today (computer networks, global media and the influences of them still very marginal). Also, your PERSONAL attitude with the tariffs situation is so like Mr. Trump has, so I will regard you as a Trumpist, ok? Like I said, Britain decided, completely on it's own (based on years of lying in the press - only to make money for the owners of British press  - of what the EU is all about), without the support, pressure and willingness from the other EU countries, to leave the marriage. With the current situation of seeking friends from the rest of world, now bowing to the extremely erratic and nationalistic behaviour of the US, it doesn't look like Britain itself doesn't really want any peaceful negotiation status to begin with to whom it was married to. Instead - outside the US borders - you should seek friends from the countries who are as nationalistic as you want to be (including European countries such as Poland and Hungary, and the populist parties in other European countries such as National Front in France, PVV in the Netherlands, and of course, including The Basic Finns in Finland). Do try to understand from history what nationalism has brought to the human race in reality. FYI: The estimated effects of Brexit for Finland today are not very big but, as for the entire world, we will not know the true effects until Britain has officially exited and for some years after that. I'd say still to you: You picked the wrong day and age (regarding the world status) to separate from a major union. You have only bad choices to choose from, when nationalism has been on the rise once again in Europe as well. You are a victim of that nationalism: Building walls (like the Berlin Wall) rather than trying to work out very problematic issues together. I will not answer to your comments on very detailed issues because you have much more larger and bigger issues to deal with first. If you don't understand those issues, then try to learn about them and be prepared to answer those first.
This is getting really dreary. I have no need of your advice, and you never answer my comments anyway, you just get on your silly soapbox instead. I think your eyes probably just glaze over and your brain zones out whenever you read my posts. We’ll choose our side according to what suits us. Our choice will not be set in stone. And I don’t think we’ll ever get close to Finlandization. You only have to look at the protests taking place around the country against Trump’s immigration policy!
We’re saying to the EU, thanks but we’re able to decide our own laws and negotiate our own international trade deals from now on, but we’re still happy to trade with you. If you want to see that as the UK ‘showing its butt’ it would be foolish but that’s entirely up to you. You’ve never made a credible argument for EU membership. I’m not sure what makes you think you could succeed when professional commentators, politicians foreign and domestic, business leaders, economists, etc, etc, have all tried and failed, And we’ll be as on our own as any other independent country would be, and that’s what we voted for, OK?
You can regard me however you like. I couldn’t care less. I know you well enough by now to know that you’ll think what you want to regardless of what I say, but my PERSONAL attitude is economically sensible.
The British media, press included, kept a wrap on what the EU was about for our entire membership, but we’ve been through that before. Like I said, you’ll believe what you want to believe.
So no, Jar, we’re not bowing to anyone, and we’re done bowing to the EU. Most of us recognise we have no right to lecture another country’s politicians. Don’t force us to choose. That would be egotistical and pathetic and it would not go well for either of us.
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jar
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Feb 10 2017, 02:40 PM
Post #502
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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- Nan Tucks Ghost
- Jan 30 2017, 03:59 PM
This is getting really dreary. I have no need of your advice, and you never answer my comments anyway, you just get on your silly soapbox instead. I think your eyes probably just glaze over and your brain zones out whenever you read my posts. We’ll choose our side according to what suits us. Our choice will not be set in stone. And I don’t think we’ll ever get close to Finlandization. You only have to look at the protests taking place around the country against Trump’s immigration policy!
We’re saying to the EU, thanks but we’re able to decide our own laws and negotiate our own international trade deals from now on, but we’re still happy to trade with you. If you want to see that as the UK ‘showing its butt’ it would be foolish but that’s entirely up to you. You’ve never made a credible argument for EU membership. I’m not sure what makes you think you could succeed when professional commentators, politicians foreign and domestic, business leaders, economists, etc, etc, have all tried and failed, And we’ll be as on our own as any other independent country would be, and that’s what we voted for, OK?
You can regard me however you like. I couldn’t care less. I know you well enough by now to know that you’ll think what you want to regardless of what I say, but my PERSONAL attitude is economically sensible.
The British media, press included, kept a wrap on what the EU was about for our entire membership, but we’ve been through that before. Like I said, you’ll believe what you want to believe.
So no, Jar, we’re not bowing to anyone, and we’re done bowing to the EU. Most of us recognise we have no right to lecture another country’s politicians. Don’t force us to choose. That would be egotistical and pathetic and it would not go well for either of us.
Hmm... Looks like you are too unwilling to see what you are representing in this world. For example, if I recall correctly, you have never been able to admit that UK press is full of propaganda against the EU, and has been for years and years. I've read some of those papers myself as well, also whenever visiting UK (ever since 1995), you know...
As one single reference: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/daily-chart-15
IMHO, your immediate personal reaction to this kind of publication is to: a) either blame that the source is anything which has some relations to EU, and therefore it's EU propaganda b) spot a reference which you regard that is not "a reliable" source c) deny and reject all information regarding UKIP, Brexit and nationalism in any form in UK, and everywhere else, which has even a slight negative "stigma" d) distancing yourself from any kind of this negative stigma
BTW, I've read "an amount" of these articles in the British press that if "the EU" does something trying to question all these British press propaganda news against the EU/Europe, it's always turned around to and attacked fiercly that the EU uses British money trying to "advance" EU propaganda. Very close to the behavior what we now see in the US when the Trumpists have gathered enough power.
Of course, nobody in the national propagandist British press is telling the history of whatever the subject is and which kind of organization is behind it and what is its relation to the EU, which is trying question the British press. You are acting the same way and you regard that it's not your job to ask questions from yourself, which doesn't really respect the basics of democracy. Do you understand that there are, for example, cases of the EU regulations which are originated from the British industry as well? One real life phenomenon, which we normal human beings are taught about in the early life also in schools, is the "The Broken Phone" phenomenon. As I can find this concept in English language, I presume you some (very basic) understanding of that? If you have ever worked in a company of any kind as an adult, you should be knowledgable this normal human behaviour, which you have to take into consideration in anywhere where humans are involved, including the EU as a political structure. I need to ask you this: Have you ever had a job in your life?
You have dug yourself extremely deep into the WW1 trenches when discussing absolutely ANYTHING about the EU and Europe as a continent in general whenever UK/Britain is involved.
FYI: Once again: I could be extremely well discussing all these with a Finnish equivalent of you (in Finnish language of course), as the value base is the same - regardless of ANY nationality. Those also include that fact that most of those people support Brexit as well as Fexit (Finnish exit) and Frexit, Grexit, Hexit etc. I know that you won't accept the fact that we are talking about values, which has no national boundaries. You don't understand or accept that as a fact of us humans.
BTW, I'm glad to hear that Britain has not entirely succumbed to ass-kissing USA and feel at least some worry about the true realities of this changing world which is partly returning to the history of the world. Somebodys in Britain are actually worried about Russian aggressiveness in the entire European continent. If recall correctly, you didn't care about this issue if it didn't concern particularly the vicinity of Britain/UK, right?
This might be WAYYYYY too much asked from you as a person, but are you a) willing and b) able to dig this information yourself which kind of news I'm referring to in regards of possible military co-operation?
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Nan Tucks Ghost
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Feb 13 2017, 04:03 PM
Post #503
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- jar
- Feb 10 2017, 02:40 PM
- Nan Tucks Ghost
- Jan 30 2017, 03:59 PM
This is getting really dreary. I have no need of your advice, and you never answer my comments anyway, you just get on your silly soapbox instead. I think your eyes probably just glaze over and your brain zones out whenever you read my posts. We’ll choose our side according to what suits us. Our choice will not be set in stone. And I don’t think we’ll ever get close to Finlandization. You only have to look at the protests taking place around the country against Trump’s immigration policy!
We’re saying to the EU, thanks but we’re able to decide our own laws and negotiate our own international trade deals from now on, but we’re still happy to trade with you. If you want to see that as the UK ‘showing its butt’ it would be foolish but that’s entirely up to you. You’ve never made a credible argument for EU membership. I’m not sure what makes you think you could succeed when professional commentators, politicians foreign and domestic, business leaders, economists, etc, etc, have all tried and failed, And we’ll be as on our own as any other independent country would be, and that’s what we voted for, OK?
You can regard me however you like. I couldn’t care less. I know you well enough by now to know that you’ll think what you want to regardless of what I say, but my PERSONAL attitude is economically sensible.
The British media, press included, kept a wrap on what the EU was about for our entire membership, but we’ve been through that before. Like I said, you’ll believe what you want to believe.
So no, Jar, we’re not bowing to anyone, and we’re done bowing to the EU. Most of us recognise we have no right to lecture another country’s politicians. Don’t force us to choose. That would be egotistical and pathetic and it would not go well for either of us.
Hmm... Looks like you are too unwilling to see what you are representing in this world. For example, if I recall correctly, you have never been able to admit that UK press is full of propaganda against the EU, and has been for years and years. I've read some of those papers myself as well, also whenever visiting UK (ever since 1995), you know... As one single reference: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/daily-chart-15IMHO, your immediate personal reaction to this kind of publication is to: a) either blame that the source is anything which has some relations to EU, and therefore it's EU propaganda b) spot a reference which you regard that is not "a reliable" source c) deny and reject all information regarding UKIP, Brexit and nationalism in any form in UK, and everywhere else, which has even a slight negative "stigma" d) distancing yourself from any kind of this negative stigma BTW, I've read "an amount" of these articles in the British press that if "the EU" does something trying to question all these British press propaganda news against the EU/Europe, it's always turned around to and attacked fiercly that the EU uses British money trying to "advance" EU propaganda. Very close to the behavior what we now see in the US when the Trumpists have gathered enough power. Of course, nobody in the national propagandist British press is telling the history of whatever the subject is and which kind of organization is behind it and what is its relation to the EU, which is trying question the British press. You are acting the same way and you regard that it's not your job to ask questions from yourself, which doesn't really respect the basics of democracy. Do you understand that there are, for example, cases of the EU regulations which are originated from the British industry as well? One real life phenomenon, which we normal human beings are taught about in the early life also in schools, is the "The Broken Phone" phenomenon. As I can find this concept in English language, I presume you some (very basic) understanding of that? If you have ever worked in a company of any kind as an adult, you should be knowledgable this normal human behaviour, which you have to take into consideration in anywhere where humans are involved, including the EU as a political structure. I need to ask you this: Have you ever had a job in your life? You have dug yourself extremely deep into the WW1 trenches when discussing absolutely ANYTHING about the EU and Europe as a continent in general whenever UK/Britain is involved. FYI: Once again: I could be extremely well discussing all these with a Finnish equivalent of you (in Finnish language of course), as the value base is the same - regardless of ANY nationality. Those also include that fact that most of those people support Brexit as well as Fexit (Finnish exit) and Frexit, Grexit, Hexit etc. I know that you won't accept the fact that we are talking about values, which has no national boundaries. You don't understand or accept that as a fact of us humans. BTW, I'm glad to hear that Britain has not entirely succumbed to ass-kissing USA and feel at least some worry about the true realities of this changing world which is partly returning to the history of the world. Somebodys in Britain are actually worried about Russian aggressiveness in the entire European continent. If recall correctly, you didn't care about this issue if it didn't concern particularly the vicinity of Britain/UK, right? This might be WAYYYYY too much asked from you as a person, but are you a) willing and b) able to dig this information yourself which kind of news I'm referring to in regards of possible military co-operation? I don’t see any reason why I should admit something that isn’t true. The UK press is not a reliable source of unbiased EU related information as I’ve said several times. I’ve also said several times before that they concentrate on ‘straight banana’ nonsense. It’s these stories that the EU (and the Economist have debunked, and good luck to them on that. The UK media, broadcast and print, ignored the really important news stories, ie governments (even Margaret Thatcher’s) allowing parliamentary sovereignty to be eroded, policy by policy, in favour of EU institutions, and how those policies are decided now.
I don’t see the EU, the Economist, or pro-EU newspapers like the Guardian and the Independent, or even the viewer funded BBC being at all concerned about that. The print media is in decline partly because people are now aware that there are many more sources of information online.
I often have remain voters farcically trying to tell me that the UK is independent even though it’s in the EU despite the press ‘being full of propaganda against the EU’. I don’t rely on the British print or broadcast media for my views, and nor does any other informed Brexiter.
I understand more than enough about the EU to know it’s really bad for British Parliamentary democracy. And yes, of course I know that some EU legislation originates from British industry. (The whole single market was a British idea.) Do you think this should make a difference as to how I view the EU? The Chairman of one of UK industry’s most successful companies said in 2009, that ‘the euro is a great success, and in today’s global economy, the pound is no longer an important currency. If we are not careful, we could become like Iceland in the next financial crisis.” I’m so glad no one cared what he thought!
Nothing I have said could ever have led you to believe I don’t respect the basics of democracy. You on the other hand, don’t seem to understand the deeply anti-democratic nature of the EU. Or if you do, you’re prepared to go along with it. It doesn’t say much for your belief in democracy.
Prresumably, by ‘the broken phone phenomenon’ you mean the game that used to be called ‘Chinese Whispers’ whereby a message is whispered by person to person down a line, and inevitably gets distorted with often hilarious results. Of course, it can also have disastrous consequences in real life situations too. If that’s what you’re thinking of, I hesitate to ask … how is it relevant here? If not, I'm not sure what you mean.
I’ve had a lot of jobs. I’d like to ask you this: What turned you into a sanctimonious, pompous idiot?
I haven’t dug myself into a trench at all. I disagree with you and you have a problem with that. That’s tough for you. And I’m concerned about many things, including Russian aggression and the EU’s baiting of Russia with its expansion plans, and I’m aware of what you mean regarding Russia. Unlike you though, I don’t see the EU, with its expansionist mentality, as being a part of the solution.
The UK is not ‘ass-kissing’ or arse-licking as we would call it here, but advancing UK interests, like most of the world’s countries including most EU member states, advance their own interests, which is what the UK should have been doing all along when we were licking the EU’s arse. Some in the UK still want to lick the EU's arse, but they're a small minority now.
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jar
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Feb 17 2017, 06:57 PM
Post #504
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
- Posts:
- 373
- Group:
- Members
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- Joined:
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- Nan Tucks Ghost
- Feb 13 2017, 04:03 PM
- jar
- Feb 10 2017, 02:40 PM
- Nan Tucks Ghost
- Jan 30 2017, 03:59 PM
This is getting really dreary. I have no need of your advice, and you never answer my comments anyway, you just get on your silly soapbox instead. I think your eyes probably just glaze over and your brain zones out whenever you read my posts. We’ll choose our side according to what suits us. Our choice will not be set in stone. And I don’t think we’ll ever get close to Finlandization. You only have to look at the protests taking place around the country against Trump’s immigration policy!
We’re saying to the EU, thanks but we’re able to decide our own laws and negotiate our own international trade deals from now on, but we’re still happy to trade with you. If you want to see that as the UK ‘showing its butt’ it would be foolish but that’s entirely up to you. You’ve never made a credible argument for EU membership. I’m not sure what makes you think you could succeed when professional commentators, politicians foreign and domestic, business leaders, economists, etc, etc, have all tried and failed, And we’ll be as on our own as any other independent country would be, and that’s what we voted for, OK?
You can regard me however you like. I couldn’t care less. I know you well enough by now to know that you’ll think what you want to regardless of what I say, but my PERSONAL attitude is economically sensible.
The British media, press included, kept a wrap on what the EU was about for our entire membership, but we’ve been through that before. Like I said, you’ll believe what you want to believe.
So no, Jar, we’re not bowing to anyone, and we’re done bowing to the EU. Most of us recognise we have no right to lecture another country’s politicians. Don’t force us to choose. That would be egotistical and pathetic and it would not go well for either of us.
Hmm... Looks like you are too unwilling to see what you are representing in this world. For example, if I recall correctly, you have never been able to admit that UK press is full of propaganda against the EU, and has been for years and years. I've read some of those papers myself as well, also whenever visiting UK (ever since 1995), you know... As one single reference: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/daily-chart-15IMHO, your immediate personal reaction to this kind of publication is to: a) either blame that the source is anything which has some relations to EU, and therefore it's EU propaganda b) spot a reference which you regard that is not "a reliable" source c) deny and reject all information regarding UKIP, Brexit and nationalism in any form in UK, and everywhere else, which has even a slight negative "stigma" d) distancing yourself from any kind of this negative stigma BTW, I've read "an amount" of these articles in the British press that if "the EU" does something trying to question all these British press propaganda news against the EU/Europe, it's always turned around to and attacked fiercly that the EU uses British money trying to "advance" EU propaganda. Very close to the behavior what we now see in the US when the Trumpists have gathered enough power. Of course, nobody in the national propagandist British press is telling the history of whatever the subject is and which kind of organization is behind it and what is its relation to the EU, which is trying question the British press. You are acting the same way and you regard that it's not your job to ask questions from yourself, which doesn't really respect the basics of democracy. Do you understand that there are, for example, cases of the EU regulations which are originated from the British industry as well? One real life phenomenon, which we normal human beings are taught about in the early life also in schools, is the "The Broken Phone" phenomenon. As I can find this concept in English language, I presume you some (very basic) understanding of that? If you have ever worked in a company of any kind as an adult, you should be knowledgable this normal human behaviour, which you have to take into consideration in anywhere where humans are involved, including the EU as a political structure. I need to ask you this: Have you ever had a job in your life? You have dug yourself extremely deep into the WW1 trenches when discussing absolutely ANYTHING about the EU and Europe as a continent in general whenever UK/Britain is involved. FYI: Once again: I could be extremely well discussing all these with a Finnish equivalent of you (in Finnish language of course), as the value base is the same - regardless of ANY nationality. Those also include that fact that most of those people support Brexit as well as Fexit (Finnish exit) and Frexit, Grexit, Hexit etc. I know that you won't accept the fact that we are talking about values, which has no national boundaries. You don't understand or accept that as a fact of us humans. BTW, I'm glad to hear that Britain has not entirely succumbed to ass-kissing USA and feel at least some worry about the true realities of this changing world which is partly returning to the history of the world. Somebodys in Britain are actually worried about Russian aggressiveness in the entire European continent. If recall correctly, you didn't care about this issue if it didn't concern particularly the vicinity of Britain/UK, right? This might be WAYYYYY too much asked from you as a person, but are you a) willing and b) able to dig this information yourself which kind of news I'm referring to in regards of possible military co-operation?
I don’t see any reason why I should admit something that isn’t true. The UK press is not a reliable source of unbiased EU related information as I’ve said several times. I’ve also said several times before that they concentrate on ‘straight banana’ nonsense. It’s these stories that the EU (and the Economist have debunked, and good luck to them on that. The UK media, broadcast and print, ignored the really important news stories, ie governments (even Margaret Thatcher’s) allowing parliamentary sovereignty to be eroded, policy by policy, in favour of EU institutions, and how those policies are decided now. I don’t see the EU, the Economist, or pro-EU newspapers like the Guardian and the Independent, or even the viewer funded BBC being at all concerned about that. The print media is in decline partly because people are now aware that there are many more sources of information online. I often have remain voters farcically trying to tell me that the UK is independent even though it’s in the EU despite the press ‘being full of propaganda against the EU’. I don’t rely on the British print or broadcast media for my views, and nor does any other informed Brexiter. I understand more than enough about the EU to know it’s really bad for British Parliamentary democracy. And yes, of course I know that some EU legislation originates from British industry. (The whole single market was a British idea.) Do you think this should make a difference as to how I view the EU? The Chairman of one of UK industry’s most successful companies said in 2009, that ‘the euro is a great success, and in today’s global economy, the pound is no longer an important currency. If we are not careful, we could become like Iceland in the next financial crisis.” I’m so glad no one cared what he thought! Nothing I have said could ever have led you to believe I don’t respect the basics of democracy. You on the other hand, don’t seem to understand the deeply anti-democratic nature of the EU. Or if you do, you’re prepared to go along with it. It doesn’t say much for your belief in democracy. Prresumably, by ‘the broken phone phenomenon’ you mean the game that used to be called ‘Chinese Whispers’ whereby a message is whispered by person to person down a line, and inevitably gets distorted with often hilarious results. Of course, it can also have disastrous consequences in real life situations too. If that’s what you’re thinking of, I hesitate to ask … how is it relevant here? If not, I'm not sure what you mean. I’ve had a lot of jobs. I’d like to ask you this: What turned you into a sanctimonious, pompous idiot?I haven’t dug myself into a trench at all. I disagree with you and you have a problem with that. That’s tough for you. And I’m concerned about many things, including Russian aggression and the EU’s baiting of Russia with its expansion plans, and I’m aware of what you mean regarding Russia. Unlike you though, I don’t see the EU, with its expansionist mentality, as being a part of the solution. The UK is not ‘ass-kissing’ or arse-licking as we would call it here, but advancing UK interests, like most of the world’s countries including most EU member states, advance their own interests, which is what the UK should have been doing all along when we were licking the EU’s arse. Some in the UK still want to lick the EU's arse, but they're a small minority now. Please list all your resources of the publications in any form known today which have lead to your anti-EU beliefs and attitudes which you have still today. You already stated that "UK press is not a reliable source of unbiased EU related information". So, which are your resources? Are you willing to reveal them?
I think you know that printed papers have also their digital forms which we can all read (some not fully without registration and/or paying some additional fee)...
Regarding the euro, please also refer to the history of all currencies, which are existing still today which have NOT had immense fluctuations in a country's economy throughout their entire existance and which have lead to ... err... what?
Also, none of the current UK countries have adopted euro as their currency, so why bring this subject about? Nor has Finland's neighbouring country Sweden adopted euro currency but we have a long cultural history with Sweden, and Finland is also a bilingual country. For cultural and economical variations in current Europe, and in general for anyone living in so called western countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone
As the thousands of years old western civilisation is being questioned today, with the Trumpists in USA, Brexit in the UK and similar wishes in especially nationalistic circles throughout European countries, why do you concern yourself about the democracy deficit in the EU? Mind you, I recall that I've asked you several times to compare how the concepts of democracy is followed in Britain/UK and in the EU political structures. I've never restricted any of these concerns to expanded to any other EU or non-EU country either. You have made the decision yourself to restrict your own views to Britain/UK only (and UK can be broken as well, whatever you think of it).
You got the basics of the broken phone game correct but without understanding what it means in the origins of what can or needs to be controlled in the terms of large scale changes such as trade agreements. Maybe you should try to understand that many of these EU regulations have actually origins in the very low level of commerce that people get what the resaller advertiser. How does one sell that "my product is of a better quality than the next door one"?
Can you tell me how does once set the standards for a quality? Which kind of values are behind those standards? How do standards of any kind of quality develop or change?
How does your view of democracy relate to the current state of events outside Europe? Do you understand that also democracy as a value ever discovered by us humans is been questioned by other not-so-democractical values? That includes currently the USA as well, you know.
What? Unlike current Russia, or the wishes of extremist Islamic beliefs, nobody is forcing to join to the EU: It is up to the country to decide whether they wish to belong to the basic values of what the EU is representing or not. I'm truly amazed that you brought this viewpoint of your up in the first place. WTF are you talking about??? Are you referring to the fact that not all the current members of the EU (including the lately joined onea) are not capable of following the basic values of democracy, such as freedom of the press and freedom of speech? Are you referring to that also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey?
Your posts are full of contradictory views and values which cannot be possible to be existing at the same time without these contradictions.
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Che On The Rocks
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Feb 18 2017, 04:37 AM
Post #505
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Former PM Blair urges Britons to 'rise up' against May's Brexit plan- Quote:
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Former British prime minister Tony Blair issued a battle cry against a so-called 'hard Brexit' on Friday, calling on voters, businesses and campaigners to "rise up" and back a coordinated effort to temper the terms of, or even halt, Britain's EU exit.
In his first major political intervention since Britons voted 52 to 48 percent to leave the European Union last June, Blair said Conservative Prime Minister Theresa May was pursuing "Brexit at any cost", and must be challenged.
"The people voted without knowledge of the terms of Brexit. As these terms become clear, it is their right to change their mind. Our mission is to persuade them to do so," he said in a speech.
 Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair delivers a keynote speech at a pro-Europe event in London, Britain, February 17, 2017. REUTERS/Toby Melville
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Free Milagro Sala! What happened to Santiago Maldonado? What happened to ARA San Juan? Mapuche Lives Matter! Stop the political persecution in Argentina! Stop the looting of Argentina!
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Robert Stout
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Feb 18 2017, 05:12 AM
Post #506
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Is there anyone left in Britain who trusts Tony Blair ????..................... :oyvey
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Jesus can raise the dead, but he can't fix stupid
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Nan Tucks Ghost
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Feb 18 2017, 01:07 PM
Post #507
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- jar
- Feb 17 2017, 06:57 PM
- Nan Tucks Ghost
- Feb 13 2017, 04:03 PM
- jar
- Feb 10 2017, 02:40 PM
- Nan Tucks Ghost
- Jan 30 2017, 03:59 PM
This is getting really dreary. I have no need of your advice, and you never answer my comments anyway, you just get on your silly soapbox instead. I think your eyes probably just glaze over and your brain zones out whenever you read my posts. We’ll choose our side according to what suits us. Our choice will not be set in stone. And I don’t think we’ll ever get close to Finlandization. You only have to look at the protests taking place around the country against Trump’s immigration policy!
We’re saying to the EU, thanks but we’re able to decide our own laws and negotiate our own international trade deals from now on, but we’re still happy to trade with you. If you want to see that as the UK ‘showing its butt’ it would be foolish but that’s entirely up to you. You’ve never made a credible argument for EU membership. I’m not sure what makes you think you could succeed when professional commentators, politicians foreign and domestic, business leaders, economists, etc, etc, have all tried and failed, And we’ll be as on our own as any other independent country would be, and that’s what we voted for, OK?
You can regard me however you like. I couldn’t care less. I know you well enough by now to know that you’ll think what you want to regardless of what I say, but my PERSONAL attitude is economically sensible.
The British media, press included, kept a wrap on what the EU was about for our entire membership, but we’ve been through that before. Like I said, you’ll believe what you want to believe.
So no, Jar, we’re not bowing to anyone, and we’re done bowing to the EU. Most of us recognise we have no right to lecture another country’s politicians. Don’t force us to choose. That would be egotistical and pathetic and it would not go well for either of us.
Hmm... Looks like you are too unwilling to see what you are representing in this world. For example, if I recall correctly, you have never been able to admit that UK press is full of propaganda against the EU, and has been for years and years. I've read some of those papers myself as well, also whenever visiting UK (ever since 1995), you know... As one single reference: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/daily-chart-15IMHO, your immediate personal reaction to this kind of publication is to: a) either blame that the source is anything which has some relations to EU, and therefore it's EU propaganda b) spot a reference which you regard that is not "a reliable" source c) deny and reject all information regarding UKIP, Brexit and nationalism in any form in UK, and everywhere else, which has even a slight negative "stigma" d) distancing yourself from any kind of this negative stigma BTW, I've read "an amount" of these articles in the British press that if "the EU" does something trying to question all these British press propaganda news against the EU/Europe, it's always turned around to and attacked fiercly that the EU uses British money trying to "advance" EU propaganda. Very close to the behavior what we now see in the US when the Trumpists have gathered enough power. Of course, nobody in the national propagandist British press is telling the history of whatever the subject is and which kind of organization is behind it and what is its relation to the EU, which is trying question the British press. You are acting the same way and you regard that it's not your job to ask questions from yourself, which doesn't really respect the basics of democracy. Do you understand that there are, for example, cases of the EU regulations which are originated from the British industry as well? One real life phenomenon, which we normal human beings are taught about in the early life also in schools, is the "The Broken Phone" phenomenon. As I can find this concept in English language, I presume you some (very basic) understanding of that? If you have ever worked in a company of any kind as an adult, you should be knowledgable this normal human behaviour, which you have to take into consideration in anywhere where humans are involved, including the EU as a political structure. I need to ask you this: Have you ever had a job in your life? You have dug yourself extremely deep into the WW1 trenches when discussing absolutely ANYTHING about the EU and Europe as a continent in general whenever UK/Britain is involved. FYI: Once again: I could be extremely well discussing all these with a Finnish equivalent of you (in Finnish language of course), as the value base is the same - regardless of ANY nationality. Those also include that fact that most of those people support Brexit as well as Fexit (Finnish exit) and Frexit, Grexit, Hexit etc. I know that you won't accept the fact that we are talking about values, which has no national boundaries. You don't understand or accept that as a fact of us humans. BTW, I'm glad to hear that Britain has not entirely succumbed to ass-kissing USA and feel at least some worry about the true realities of this changing world which is partly returning to the history of the world. Somebodys in Britain are actually worried about Russian aggressiveness in the entire European continent. If recall correctly, you didn't care about this issue if it didn't concern particularly the vicinity of Britain/UK, right? This might be WAYYYYY too much asked from you as a person, but are you a) willing and b) able to dig this information yourself which kind of news I'm referring to in regards of possible military co-operation?
I don’t see any reason why I should admit something that isn’t true. The UK press is not a reliable source of unbiased EU related information as I’ve said several times. I’ve also said several times before that they concentrate on ‘straight banana’ nonsense. It’s these stories that the EU (and the Economist have debunked, and good luck to them on that. The UK media, broadcast and print, ignored the really important news stories, ie governments (even Margaret Thatcher’s) allowing parliamentary sovereignty to be eroded, policy by policy, in favour of EU institutions, and how those policies are decided now. I don’t see the EU, the Economist, or pro-EU newspapers like the Guardian and the Independent, or even the viewer funded BBC being at all concerned about that. The print media is in decline partly because people are now aware that there are many more sources of information online. I often have remain voters farcically trying to tell me that the UK is independent even though it’s in the EU despite the press ‘being full of propaganda against the EU’. I don’t rely on the British print or broadcast media for my views, and nor does any other informed Brexiter. I understand more than enough about the EU to know it’s really bad for British Parliamentary democracy. And yes, of course I know that some EU legislation originates from British industry. (The whole single market was a British idea.) Do you think this should make a difference as to how I view the EU? The Chairman of one of UK industry’s most successful companies said in 2009, that ‘the euro is a great success, and in today’s global economy, the pound is no longer an important currency. If we are not careful, we could become like Iceland in the next financial crisis.” I’m so glad no one cared what he thought! Nothing I have said could ever have led you to believe I don’t respect the basics of democracy. You on the other hand, don’t seem to understand the deeply anti-democratic nature of the EU. Or if you do, you’re prepared to go along with it. It doesn’t say much for your belief in democracy. Prresumably, by ‘the broken phone phenomenon’ you mean the game that used to be called ‘Chinese Whispers’ whereby a message is whispered by person to person down a line, and inevitably gets distorted with often hilarious results. Of course, it can also have disastrous consequences in real life situations too. If that’s what you’re thinking of, I hesitate to ask … how is it relevant here? If not, I'm not sure what you mean. I’ve had a lot of jobs. I’d like to ask you this: What turned you into a sanctimonious, pompous idiot?I haven’t dug myself into a trench at all. I disagree with you and you have a problem with that. That’s tough for you. And I’m concerned about many things, including Russian aggression and the EU’s baiting of Russia with its expansion plans, and I’m aware of what you mean regarding Russia. Unlike you though, I don’t see the EU, with its expansionist mentality, as being a part of the solution. The UK is not ‘ass-kissing’ or arse-licking as we would call it here, but advancing UK interests, like most of the world’s countries including most EU member states, advance their own interests, which is what the UK should have been doing all along when we were licking the EU’s arse. Some in the UK still want to lick the EU's arse, but they're a small minority now.
Please list all your resources of the publications in any form known today which have lead to your anti-EU beliefs and attitudes which you have still today. You already stated that "UK press is not a reliable source of unbiased EU related information". So, which are your resources? Are you willing to reveal them? I think you know that printed papers have also their digital forms which we can all read (some not fully without registration and/or paying some additional fee)... Regarding the euro, please also refer to the history of all currencies, which are existing still today which have NOT had immense fluctuations in a country's economy throughout their entire existance and which have lead to ... err... what? Also, none of the current UK countries have adopted euro as their currency, so why bring this subject about? Nor has Finland's neighbouring country Sweden adopted euro currency but we have a long cultural history with Sweden, and Finland is also a bilingual country. For cultural and economical variations in current Europe, and in general for anyone living in so called western countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EurozoneAs the thousands of years old western civilisation is being questioned today, with the Trumpists in USA, Brexit in the UK and similar wishes in especially nationalistic circles throughout European countries, why do you concern yourself about the democracy deficit in the EU? Mind you, I recall that I've asked you several times to compare how the concepts of democracy is followed in Britain/UK and in the EU political structures. I've never restricted any of these concerns to expanded to any other EU or non-EU country either. You have made the decision yourself to restrict your own views to Britain/UK only (and UK can be broken as well, whatever you think of it). You got the basics of the broken phone game correct but without understanding what it means in the origins of what can or needs to be controlled in the terms of large scale changes such as trade agreements. Maybe you should try to understand that many of these EU regulations have actually origins in the very low level of commerce that people get what the resaller advertiser. How does one sell that "my product is of a better quality than the next door one"? Can you tell me how does once set the standards for a quality? Which kind of values are behind those standards? How do standards of any kind of quality develop or change? How does your view of democracy relate to the current state of events outside Europe? Do you understand that also democracy as a value ever discovered by us humans is been questioned by other not-so-democractical values? That includes currently the USA as well, you know. What? Unlike current Russia, or the wishes of extremist Islamic beliefs, nobody is forcing to join to the EU: It is up to the country to decide whether they wish to belong to the basic values of what the EU is representing or not. I'm truly amazed that you brought this viewpoint of your up in the first place. WTF are you talking about??? Are you referring to the fact that not all the current members of the EU (including the lately joined onea) are not capable of following the basic values of democracy, such as freedom of the press and freedom of speech? Are you referring to that also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey? Your posts are full of contradictory views and values which cannot be possible to be existing at the same time without these contradictions. I don’t have time to list all my resources, never mind the inclination, and I expect to have an anti-EU attitude until the UK leaves the EU at least. It would also be good to see that Europeans want to be ruled by the anti-democratic EU, or the EU changes and becomes democratic. However, if you quote specific statement(s) in which you’re interested, I’ll be pleased to supply you with sources.
I brought the euro up merely as an example of the woolly-minded thinking of multinationals and politicians. No currency should be a badly planned vanity project. The EU put its own ambitions before economic sense and tried to fit economically diverse countries into one interest rate. It was never going to work. The EU then expected richer member states to bail out poorer states when the poorer states unsuitability for the Eurozone was exposed. How do you think the citizens of those richer states feel the vanity project being built at their expense? Joining in the effort to prop up the euro is about as popular as buckets of cold vomit in the UK.
Our last prime minister assured us he had protected us from being required to join any more bail out funds. He also wanted protection from Eurozone regulations that could potentially damage non-Eurozone countries. He was particularly concerned about the City of London. There was a lot of well-founded cynicism about the reassurances he made. So the fact that the UK is not in the euro does not mean its performance and governance are not of great interest in the UK.
I have told you before: You don’t decide what I should be concerned about, and I’ve answered all your questions, though you don’t often get the answers that suit you. Again that’s your problem, not mine. I did not know that thousands of years worth of Western civilisation is being questioned in anything more than the normal philosophical terms. Where is that going on?
I rarely comment on other countries, but don’t presume I restrict my views to the UK just because I rarely comment on them. And of course the UK can be broken up with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland leaving a possibility. It’s probably not likely, whatever Scots, Welsh and Irish nationalists like to pretend. It is up to the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish. The English aren’t asked.
I think what you know about trade agreements could be written on the back of a postage stamp! I understand from where EU regulations originate. It doesn’t change the fact that the UK can decide its own laws and require companies that export from the UK to comply with the laws of markets in which they trade.
No democracy is ideal, except perhaps in Switzerland, where far more decisions are put directly to the people than in most other democracies. In the UK we have a ‘representative’ democracy, ie one where the people we elect act as they see fit between elections. How do you think what happens elsewhere should affect my view of the EU? You already know I don’t see it as any kind of solution to any of the world’s problems.
I have never said anyone is or was forced to join the EU, so I’m at a loss to know what you are ‘truly amazed’ about. Straw man argument. And no EU member state is capable of following basic democracy. Unelected European Commissioners decide the laws and no public vote can change EU agreed policies and nationally elected minister can be easily outvoted.
I don’t know what you mean by “also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey”. In what sense is it about to follow those countries?
Please give me an example of these contradictory views and values you say my posts are ‘full of’ (if you can). I want direct quotes, obviously, please.
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Nan Tucks Ghost
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Feb 18 2017, 01:16 PM
Post #508
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- Robert Stout
- Feb 18 2017, 05:12 AM
Is there anyone left in Britain who trusts Tony Blair ????..................... :oyvey They're hard to find. Blair's popularity sank like a stone after his claims about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq were found to be false, and they have not recovered.
The general feeling seems to be if Blair wants something, want the opposite.
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jar
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Feb 24 2017, 06:57 PM
Post #509
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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- Nan Tucks Ghost
- Feb 18 2017, 01:07 PM
- jar
- Feb 17 2017, 06:57 PM
- Nan Tucks Ghost
- Feb 13 2017, 04:03 PM
- jar
- Feb 10 2017, 02:40 PM
- Nan Tucks Ghost
- Jan 30 2017, 03:59 PM
This is getting really dreary. I have no need of your advice, and you never answer my comments anyway, you just get on your silly soapbox instead. I think your eyes probably just glaze over and your brain zones out whenever you read my posts. We’ll choose our side according to what suits us. Our choice will not be set in stone. And I don’t think we’ll ever get close to Finlandization. You only have to look at the protests taking place around the country against Trump’s immigration policy!
We’re saying to the EU, thanks but we’re able to decide our own laws and negotiate our own international trade deals from now on, but we’re still happy to trade with you. If you want to see that as the UK ‘showing its butt’ it would be foolish but that’s entirely up to you. You’ve never made a credible argument for EU membership. I’m not sure what makes you think you could succeed when professional commentators, politicians foreign and domestic, business leaders, economists, etc, etc, have all tried and failed, And we’ll be as on our own as any other independent country would be, and that’s what we voted for, OK?
You can regard me however you like. I couldn’t care less. I know you well enough by now to know that you’ll think what you want to regardless of what I say, but my PERSONAL attitude is economically sensible.
The British media, press included, kept a wrap on what the EU was about for our entire membership, but we’ve been through that before. Like I said, you’ll believe what you want to believe.
So no, Jar, we’re not bowing to anyone, and we’re done bowing to the EU. Most of us recognise we have no right to lecture another country’s politicians. Don’t force us to choose. That would be egotistical and pathetic and it would not go well for either of us.
Hmm... Looks like you are too unwilling to see what you are representing in this world. For example, if I recall correctly, you have never been able to admit that UK press is full of propaganda against the EU, and has been for years and years. I've read some of those papers myself as well, also whenever visiting UK (ever since 1995), you know... As one single reference: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/daily-chart-15IMHO, your immediate personal reaction to this kind of publication is to: a) either blame that the source is anything which has some relations to EU, and therefore it's EU propaganda b) spot a reference which you regard that is not "a reliable" source c) deny and reject all information regarding UKIP, Brexit and nationalism in any form in UK, and everywhere else, which has even a slight negative "stigma" d) distancing yourself from any kind of this negative stigma BTW, I've read "an amount" of these articles in the British press that if "the EU" does something trying to question all these British press propaganda news against the EU/Europe, it's always turned around to and attacked fiercly that the EU uses British money trying to "advance" EU propaganda. Very close to the behavior what we now see in the US when the Trumpists have gathered enough power. Of course, nobody in the national propagandist British press is telling the history of whatever the subject is and which kind of organization is behind it and what is its relation to the EU, which is trying question the British press. You are acting the same way and you regard that it's not your job to ask questions from yourself, which doesn't really respect the basics of democracy. Do you understand that there are, for example, cases of the EU regulations which are originated from the British industry as well? One real life phenomenon, which we normal human beings are taught about in the early life also in schools, is the "The Broken Phone" phenomenon. As I can find this concept in English language, I presume you some (very basic) understanding of that? If you have ever worked in a company of any kind as an adult, you should be knowledgable this normal human behaviour, which you have to take into consideration in anywhere where humans are involved, including the EU as a political structure. I need to ask you this: Have you ever had a job in your life? You have dug yourself extremely deep into the WW1 trenches when discussing absolutely ANYTHING about the EU and Europe as a continent in general whenever UK/Britain is involved. FYI: Once again: I could be extremely well discussing all these with a Finnish equivalent of you (in Finnish language of course), as the value base is the same - regardless of ANY nationality. Those also include that fact that most of those people support Brexit as well as Fexit (Finnish exit) and Frexit, Grexit, Hexit etc. I know that you won't accept the fact that we are talking about values, which has no national boundaries. You don't understand or accept that as a fact of us humans. BTW, I'm glad to hear that Britain has not entirely succumbed to ass-kissing USA and feel at least some worry about the true realities of this changing world which is partly returning to the history of the world. Somebodys in Britain are actually worried about Russian aggressiveness in the entire European continent. If recall correctly, you didn't care about this issue if it didn't concern particularly the vicinity of Britain/UK, right? This might be WAYYYYY too much asked from you as a person, but are you a) willing and b) able to dig this information yourself which kind of news I'm referring to in regards of possible military co-operation?
I don’t see any reason why I should admit something that isn’t true. The UK press is not a reliable source of unbiased EU related information as I’ve said several times. I’ve also said several times before that they concentrate on ‘straight banana’ nonsense. It’s these stories that the EU (and the Economist have debunked, and good luck to them on that. The UK media, broadcast and print, ignored the really important news stories, ie governments (even Margaret Thatcher’s) allowing parliamentary sovereignty to be eroded, policy by policy, in favour of EU institutions, and how those policies are decided now. I don’t see the EU, the Economist, or pro-EU newspapers like the Guardian and the Independent, or even the viewer funded BBC being at all concerned about that. The print media is in decline partly because people are now aware that there are many more sources of information online. I often have remain voters farcically trying to tell me that the UK is independent even though it’s in the EU despite the press ‘being full of propaganda against the EU’. I don’t rely on the British print or broadcast media for my views, and nor does any other informed Brexiter. I understand more than enough about the EU to know it’s really bad for British Parliamentary democracy. And yes, of course I know that some EU legislation originates from British industry. (The whole single market was a British idea.) Do you think this should make a difference as to how I view the EU? The Chairman of one of UK industry’s most successful companies said in 2009, that ‘the euro is a great success, and in today’s global economy, the pound is no longer an important currency. If we are not careful, we could become like Iceland in the next financial crisis.” I’m so glad no one cared what he thought! Nothing I have said could ever have led you to believe I don’t respect the basics of democracy. You on the other hand, don’t seem to understand the deeply anti-democratic nature of the EU. Or if you do, you’re prepared to go along with it. It doesn’t say much for your belief in democracy. Prresumably, by ‘the broken phone phenomenon’ you mean the game that used to be called ‘Chinese Whispers’ whereby a message is whispered by person to person down a line, and inevitably gets distorted with often hilarious results. Of course, it can also have disastrous consequences in real life situations too. If that’s what you’re thinking of, I hesitate to ask … how is it relevant here? If not, I'm not sure what you mean. I’ve had a lot of jobs. I’d like to ask you this: What turned you into a sanctimonious, pompous idiot?I haven’t dug myself into a trench at all. I disagree with you and you have a problem with that. That’s tough for you. And I’m concerned about many things, including Russian aggression and the EU’s baiting of Russia with its expansion plans, and I’m aware of what you mean regarding Russia. Unlike you though, I don’t see the EU, with its expansionist mentality, as being a part of the solution. The UK is not ‘ass-kissing’ or arse-licking as we would call it here, but advancing UK interests, like most of the world’s countries including most EU member states, advance their own interests, which is what the UK should have been doing all along when we were licking the EU’s arse. Some in the UK still want to lick the EU's arse, but they're a small minority now.
Please list all your resources of the publications in any form known today which have lead to your anti-EU beliefs and attitudes which you have still today. You already stated that "UK press is not a reliable source of unbiased EU related information". So, which are your resources? Are you willing to reveal them? I think you know that printed papers have also their digital forms which we can all read (some not fully without registration and/or paying some additional fee)... Regarding the euro, please also refer to the history of all currencies, which are existing still today which have NOT had immense fluctuations in a country's economy throughout their entire existance and which have lead to ... err... what? Also, none of the current UK countries have adopted euro as their currency, so why bring this subject about? Nor has Finland's neighbouring country Sweden adopted euro currency but we have a long cultural history with Sweden, and Finland is also a bilingual country. For cultural and economical variations in current Europe, and in general for anyone living in so called western countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EurozoneAs the thousands of years old western civilisation is being questioned today, with the Trumpists in USA, Brexit in the UK and similar wishes in especially nationalistic circles throughout European countries, why do you concern yourself about the democracy deficit in the EU? Mind you, I recall that I've asked you several times to compare how the concepts of democracy is followed in Britain/UK and in the EU political structures. I've never restricted any of these concerns to expanded to any other EU or non-EU country either. You have made the decision yourself to restrict your own views to Britain/UK only (and UK can be broken as well, whatever you think of it). You got the basics of the broken phone game correct but without understanding what it means in the origins of what can or needs to be controlled in the terms of large scale changes such as trade agreements. Maybe you should try to understand that many of these EU regulations have actually origins in the very low level of commerce that people get what the resaller advertiser. How does one sell that "my product is of a better quality than the next door one"? Can you tell me how does once set the standards for a quality? Which kind of values are behind those standards? How do standards of any kind of quality develop or change? How does your view of democracy relate to the current state of events outside Europe? Do you understand that also democracy as a value ever discovered by us humans is been questioned by other not-so-democractical values? That includes currently the USA as well, you know. What? Unlike current Russia, or the wishes of extremist Islamic beliefs, nobody is forcing to join to the EU: It is up to the country to decide whether they wish to belong to the basic values of what the EU is representing or not. I'm truly amazed that you brought this viewpoint of your up in the first place. WTF are you talking about??? Are you referring to the fact that not all the current members of the EU (including the lately joined onea) are not capable of following the basic values of democracy, such as freedom of the press and freedom of speech? Are you referring to that also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey? Your posts are full of contradictory views and values which cannot be possible to be existing at the same time without these contradictions.
I don’t have time to list all my resources, never mind the inclination, and I expect to have an anti-EU attitude until the UK leaves the EU at least. It would also be good to see that Europeans want to be ruled by the anti-democratic EU, or the EU changes and becomes democratic. However, if you quote specific statement(s) in which you’re interested, I’ll be pleased to supply you with sources. I brought the euro up merely as an example of the woolly-minded thinking of multinationals and politicians. No currency should be a badly planned vanity project. The EU put its own ambitions before economic sense and tried to fit economically diverse countries into one interest rate. It was never going to work. The EU then expected richer member states to bail out poorer states when the poorer states unsuitability for the Eurozone was exposed. How do you think the citizens of those richer states feel the vanity project being built at their expense? Joining in the effort to prop up the euro is about as popular as buckets of cold vomit in the UK. Our last prime minister assured us he had protected us from being required to join any more bail out funds. He also wanted protection from Eurozone regulations that could potentially damage non-Eurozone countries. He was particularly concerned about the City of London. There was a lot of well-founded cynicism about the reassurances he made. So the fact that the UK is not in the euro does not mean its performance and governance are not of great interest in the UK. I have told you before: You don’t decide what I should be concerned about, and I’ve answered all your questions, though you don’t often get the answers that suit you. Again that’s your problem, not mine. I did not know that thousands of years worth of Western civilisation is being questioned in anything more than the normal philosophical terms. Where is that going on? I rarely comment on other countries, but don’t presume I restrict my views to the UK just because I rarely comment on them. And of course the UK can be broken up with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland leaving a possibility. It’s probably not likely, whatever Scots, Welsh and Irish nationalists like to pretend. It is up to the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish. The English aren’t asked. I think what you know about trade agreements could be written on the back of a postage stamp! I understand from where EU regulations originate. It doesn’t change the fact that the UK can decide its own laws and require companies that export from the UK to comply with the laws of markets in which they trade. No democracy is ideal, except perhaps in Switzerland, where far more decisions are put directly to the people than in most other democracies. In the UK we have a ‘representative’ democracy, ie one where the people we elect act as they see fit between elections. How do you think what happens elsewhere should affect my view of the EU? You already know I don’t see it as any kind of solution to any of the world’s problems. I have never said anyone is or was forced to join the EU, so I’m at a loss to know what you are ‘truly amazed’ about. Straw man argument. And no EU member state is capable of following basic democracy. Unelected European Commissioners decide the laws and no public vote can change EU agreed policies and nationally elected minister can be easily outvoted. I don’t know what you mean by “also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey”. In what sense is it about to follow those countries? Please give me an example of these contradictory views and values you say my posts are ‘full of’ (if you can). I want direct quotes, obviously, please.
That figures that you don't WANT to list your sources, because you know I would hit on those. There's nothing new there as it is basically 100% sure that those sources are majority similar to this 'alt-right' type of news and about blogs from people/groups of people who are constantly living in the nationalistic world only and will not accept that nationalism is just an ism, and that it is a very western life value to question its own discoveries as well. 
Please, try to understand this basic value of called western societies, derived from origins of what we have "recently" got to know as Europe.
I can well say that a well known economical writer (Jan Hurri) in Finnish publications has very similar views what you have, and about 98% of the articles he has ever written about is for his hatred of the EU and the euro as a currency. Basically, I recall one single article from him in which he ever wrote positively about the entire existence of the EU. No news to me is or to you should be that he's a supporter of the Basic Finns, the equivalent of UKIP.
Please, give an example of the history of all ever existed currencies (included currently existing ones) which "have had a good plan" how it is valued throughout times without crisis times. Can you name one currency?
Please try to include to those crisis times the affect of the global communications, especially the discovery of the Internet, which has greatly affected to globalism, and accept the fact that none of those technological discoveries is going to diminish the affect of multi nationalism and globalism - UNLESS there's global WW3 and possibly WW4 to get rid of the entire human race on our planet Earth, which would be "The True Final Solution" to the problems we are discussing about.
Ok, so this Switzerland thingy again... If I can get 1£, 1€ or 1$ every time I hear/read about mentioning Switzerland as an example of a democracy, I'd be at least some 3000€ or so richer that today.  For a basic reference (including the history) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland
So, please, write a paper how the history of Britain is different from the history of Switzerland and why Britain cannot be a copy of Switzerland, nor it will be with the Brexit. Do note that Switzerland is also a federal state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_as_a_federal_state
I'm not in this forum to tell how you should behave but I'm here to raise questions that maybe you should question yourself. The ability to question oneself is the very very first step to a bit larger understanding of yourself and of us humans in general.
You have a weird but a known way to push the responsibility of your own words to someone else. That means, that you will not take any responsibility of what has happened in the history of us human before. If you want to return to some historical past what you once knew about, you will not accept the realities of those bygone eras either. That's the very essence problem of conservative values: The realities of those days are blurred by history and forgetting about the problems existing in those times, including economical problems.
"Make xxxxxx great again" slogan like you are referring to in your ideals for supporting Brexit and and what Trump says. When was something "great" in the history of xxxxx? To which era are you referring to in the British or UK history? How long did that "era of greatness" last?
> "And no EU member state is capable of following basic democracy. Unelected European Commissioners decide the laws and no public vote can change EU agreed policies and nationally elected minister can be easily outvoted."
Please, give it at least a try to understand the realities of this changing world. The news I read about in the real world is, that European Parliament has much less to vote for these days, because EC has already changed their policies of cutting the red tape. It takes a while in any political system to clean up the queue, as in any decision of any kind in a democracy. In a non-democracy there is not such clean-up time, if you understand even the basics of what a democracy and a non-democracy means.
BTW, your fixation to this current European Commissioner policy election is part of democracy, although not being a direct one. I'm asking you to find out which governmental structures representatives are directly elected. Can you do that? You can choose whatever country/countries to explain its/their structures.
Next question: Should basically all forms of democratical public votings be direct ones? That would mean that we would get rid of the how current democracy is defined, so that indirect voting is not part of democracy any longer, doesn't it? Please explain your thoughts of what your values would bring to the human cultures. Do understand that we are talking about the very very basics of how to define a democracy, all the way with its couple of thousands years of history.
BTW: Some Brexit affects to the British culture: http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/1186-the-uk-leaving-the-eu-would-change-the-european-music-industry/ https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2016/nov/01/brexit-music-british-bands-eu-referendum-touring-europe
You being a UKIP supporter, you have possibly destroyed a lot of British peoples' future success trying to break it in the music industry. If British people want to support music industry, they have to spend more personal money, one way or another. I presume you will need to pay more taxes for it as well to cover the losses or then the British music industry will suffer the consequences of Brexit.
>"I don’t know what you mean by “also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey”. In what sense is it about to follow those countries?
The quote above, I leave to you to ponder on regarding the values we humans can have and how those values manifests themselves in different countries around in Europe and its vicinities (but not restricted to the referred geographical area).
Your request some direct quotes is bs, meaning that you are not capable of understanding even the basics of yourself and what are the values of which you are constantly expressing. It is YOU who needs to be culturally and valuewise able to reflect to what us humans are capable of and what are those reasons and values of such human beings which have caused such destructions of human life in the past and compared to what we are facing today.
How is modern problems in any relation to what nationalism has caused in the past centuries? Can you relate in anything of the past problems to the current ones supporting Brexit?
Once again: I'm discussing with a Basic Finn party supporter but in English, or partially, even Change 2011 or Independence Party but maybe not quite with a Blue and White Front supporter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4

(I know that John Cleese has supported Brexit, mainly because of the mass immigration issues within the free movement policies of the EU...)
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Nan Tucks Ghost
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Feb 27 2017, 05:31 PM
Post #510
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Quoting limited to 5 levels deep http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/daily-chart-15IMHO, your immediate personal reaction to this kind of publication is to: a) either blame that the source is anything which has some relations to EU, and therefore it's EU propaganda b) spot a reference which you regard that is not "a reliable" source c) deny and reject all information regarding UKIP, Brexit and nationalism in any form in UK, and everywhere else, which has even a slight negative "stigma" d) distancing yourself from any kind of this negative stigma BTW, I've read "an amount" of these articles in the British press that if "the EU" does something trying to question all these British press propaganda news against the EU/Europe, it's always turned around to and attacked fiercly that the EU uses British money trying to "advance" EU propaganda. Very close to the behavior what we now see in the US when the Trumpists have gathered enough power. Of course, nobody in the national propagandist British press is telling the history of whatever the subject is and which kind of organization is behind it and what is its relation to the EU, which is trying question the British press. You are acting the same way and you regard that it's not your job to ask questions from yourself, which doesn't really respect the basics of democracy. Do you understand that there are, for example, cases of the EU regulations which are originated from the British industry as well? One real life phenomenon, which we normal human beings are taught about in the early life also in schools, is the "The Broken Phone" phenomenon. As I can find this concept in English language, I presume you some (very basic) understanding of that? If you have ever worked in a company of any kind as an adult, you should be knowledgable this normal human behaviour, which you have to take into consideration in anywhere where humans are involved, including the EU as a political structure. I need to ask you this: Have you ever had a job in your life? You have dug yourself extremely deep into the WW1 trenches when discussing absolutely ANYTHING about the EU and Europe as a continent in general whenever UK/Britain is involved. FYI: Once again: I could be extremely well discussing all these with a Finnish equivalent of you (in Finnish language of course), as the value base is the same - regardless of ANY nationality. Those also include that fact that most of those people support Brexit as well as Fexit (Finnish exit) and Frexit, Grexit, Hexit etc. I know that you won't accept the fact that we are talking about values, which has no national boundaries. You don't understand or accept that as a fact of us humans. BTW, I'm glad to hear that Britain has not entirely succumbed to ass-kissing USA and feel at least some worry about the true realities of this changing world which is partly returning to the history of the world. Somebodys in Britain are actually worried about Russian aggressiveness in the entire European continent. If recall correctly, you didn't care about this issue if it didn't concern particularly the vicinity of Britain/UK, right? This might be WAYYYYY too much asked from you as a person, but are you a) willing and b) able to dig this information yourself which kind of news I'm referring to in regards of possible military co-operation?
I don’t see any reason why I should admit something that isn’t true. The UK press is not a reliable source of unbiased EU related information as I’ve said several times. I’ve also said several times before that they concentrate on ‘straight banana’ nonsense. It’s these stories that the EU (and the Economist have debunked, and good luck to them on that. The UK media, broadcast and print, ignored the really important news stories, ie governments (even Margaret Thatcher’s) allowing parliamentary sovereignty to be eroded, policy by policy, in favour of EU institutions, and how those policies are decided now. I don’t see the EU, the Economist, or pro-EU newspapers like the Guardian and the Independent, or even the viewer funded BBC being at all concerned about that. The print media is in decline partly because people are now aware that there are many more sources of information online. I often have remain voters farcically trying to tell me that the UK is independent even though it’s in the EU despite the press ‘being full of propaganda against the EU’. I don’t rely on the British print or broadcast media for my views, and nor does any other informed Brexiter. I understand more than enough about the EU to know it’s really bad for British Parliamentary democracy. And yes, of course I know that some EU legislation originates from British industry. (The whole single market was a British idea.) Do you think this should make a difference as to how I view the EU? The Chairman of one of UK industry’s most successful companies said in 2009, that ‘the euro is a great success, and in today’s global economy, the pound is no longer an important currency. If we are not careful, we could become like Iceland in the next financial crisis.” I’m so glad no one cared what he thought! Nothing I have said could ever have led you to believe I don’t respect the basics of democracy. You on the other hand, don’t seem to understand the deeply anti-democratic nature of the EU. Or if you do, you’re prepared to go along with it. It doesn’t say much for your belief in democracy. Prresumably, by ‘the broken phone phenomenon’ you mean the game that used to be called ‘Chinese Whispers’ whereby a message is whispered by person to person down a line, and inevitably gets distorted with often hilarious results. Of course, it can also have disastrous consequences in real life situations too. If that’s what you’re thinking of, I hesitate to ask … how is it relevant here? If not, I'm not sure what you mean. I’ve had a lot of jobs. I’d like to ask you this: What turned you into a sanctimonious, pompous idiot?I haven’t dug myself into a trench at all. I disagree with you and you have a problem with that. That’s tough for you. And I’m concerned about many things, including Russian aggression and the EU’s baiting of Russia with its expansion plans, and I’m aware of what you mean regarding Russia. Unlike you though, I don’t see the EU, with its expansionist mentality, as being a part of the solution. The UK is not ‘ass-kissing’ or arse-licking as we would call it here, but advancing UK interests, like most of the world’s countries including most EU member states, advance their own interests, which is what the UK should have been doing all along when we were licking the EU’s arse. Some in the UK still want to lick the EU's arse, but they're a small minority now.
Please list all your resources of the publications in any form known today which have lead to your anti-EU beliefs and attitudes which you have still today. You already stated that "UK press is not a reliable source of unbiased EU related information". So, which are your resources? Are you willing to reveal them? I think you know that printed papers have also their digital forms which we can all read (some not fully without registration and/or paying some additional fee)... Regarding the euro, please also refer to the history of all currencies, which are existing still today which have NOT had immense fluctuations in a country's economy throughout their entire existance and which have lead to ... err... what? Also, none of the current UK countries have adopted euro as their currency, so why bring this subject about? Nor has Finland's neighbouring country Sweden adopted euro currency but we have a long cultural history with Sweden, and Finland is also a bilingual country. For cultural and economical variations in current Europe, and in general for anyone living in so called western countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EurozoneAs the thousands of years old western civilisation is being questioned today, with the Trumpists in USA, Brexit in the UK and similar wishes in especially nationalistic circles throughout European countries, why do you concern yourself about the democracy deficit in the EU? Mind you, I recall that I've asked you several times to compare how the concepts of democracy is followed in Britain/UK and in the EU political structures. I've never restricted any of these concerns to expanded to any other EU or non-EU country either. You have made the decision yourself to restrict your own views to Britain/UK only (and UK can be broken as well, whatever you think of it). You got the basics of the broken phone game correct but without understanding what it means in the origins of what can or needs to be controlled in the terms of large scale changes such as trade agreements. Maybe you should try to understand that many of these EU regulations have actually origins in the very low level of commerce that people get what the resaller advertiser. How does one sell that "my product is of a better quality than the next door one"? Can you tell me how does once set the standards for a quality? Which kind of values are behind those standards? How do standards of any kind of quality develop or change? How does your view of democracy relate to the current state of events outside Europe? Do you understand that also democracy as a value ever discovered by us humans is been questioned by other not-so-democractical values? That includes currently the USA as well, you know. What? Unlike current Russia, or the wishes of extremist Islamic beliefs, nobody is forcing to join to the EU: It is up to the country to decide whether they wish to belong to the basic values of what the EU is representing or not. I'm truly amazed that you brought this viewpoint of your up in the first place. WTF are you talking about??? Are you referring to the fact that not all the current members of the EU (including the lately joined onea) are not capable of following the basic values of democracy, such as freedom of the press and freedom of speech? Are you referring to that also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey? Your posts are full of contradictory views and values which cannot be possible to be existing at the same time without these contradictions.
I don’t have time to list all my resources, never mind the inclination, and I expect to have an anti-EU attitude until the UK leaves the EU at least. It would also be good to see that Europeans want to be ruled by the anti-democratic EU, or the EU changes and becomes democratic. However, if you quote specific statement(s) in which you’re interested, I’ll be pleased to supply you with sources. I brought the euro up merely as an example of the woolly-minded thinking of multinationals and politicians. No currency should be a badly planned vanity project. The EU put its own ambitions before economic sense and tried to fit economically diverse countries into one interest rate. It was never going to work. The EU then expected richer member states to bail out poorer states when the poorer states unsuitability for the Eurozone was exposed. How do you think the citizens of those richer states feel the vanity project being built at their expense? Joining in the effort to prop up the euro is about as popular as buckets of cold vomit in the UK. Our last prime minister assured us he had protected us from being required to join any more bail out funds. He also wanted protection from Eurozone regulations that could potentially damage non-Eurozone countries. He was particularly concerned about the City of London. There was a lot of well-founded cynicism about the reassurances he made. So the fact that the UK is not in the euro does not mean its performance and governance are not of great interest in the UK. I have told you before: You don’t decide what I should be concerned about, and I’ve answered all your questions, though you don’t often get the answers that suit you. Again that’s your problem, not mine. I did not know that thousands of years worth of Western civilisation is being questioned in anything more than the normal philosophical terms. Where is that going on? I rarely comment on other countries, but don’t presume I restrict my views to the UK just because I rarely comment on them. And of course the UK can be broken up with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland leaving a possibility. It’s probably not likely, whatever Scots, Welsh and Irish nationalists like to pretend. It is up to the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish. The English aren’t asked. I think what you know about trade agreements could be written on the back of a postage stamp! I understand from where EU regulations originate. It doesn’t change the fact that the UK can decide its own laws and require companies that export from the UK to comply with the laws of markets in which they trade. No democracy is ideal, except perhaps in Switzerland, where far more decisions are put directly to the people than in most other democracies. In the UK we have a ‘representative’ democracy, ie one where the people we elect act as they see fit between elections. How do you think what happens elsewhere should affect my view of the EU? You already know I don’t see it as any kind of solution to any of the world’s problems. I have never said anyone is or was forced to join the EU, so I’m at a loss to know what you are ‘truly amazed’ about. Straw man argument. And no EU member state is capable of following basic democracy. Unelected European Commissioners decide the laws and no public vote can change EU agreed policies and nationally elected minister can be easily outvoted. I don’t know what you mean by “also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey”. In what sense is it about to follow those countries? Please give me an example of these contradictory views and values you say my posts are ‘full of’ (if you can). I want direct quotes, obviously, please.
That figures that you don't WANT to list your sources, because you know I would hit on those. There's nothing new there as it is basically 100% sure that those sources are majority similar to this 'alt-right' type of news and about blogs from people/groups of people who are constantly living in the nationalistic world only and will not accept that nationalism is just an ism, and that it is a very western life value to question its own discoveries as well.  Please, try to understand this basic value of called western societies, derived from origins of what we have "recently" got to know as Europe. I can well say that a well known economical writer (Jan Hurri) in Finnish publications has very similar views what you have, and about 98% of the articles he has ever written about is for his hatred of the EU and the euro as a currency. Basically, I recall one single article from him in which he ever wrote positively about the entire existence of the EU. No news to me is or to you should be that he's a supporter of the Basic Finns, the equivalent of UKIP. Please, give an example of the history of all ever existed currencies (included currently existing ones) which "have had a good plan" how it is valued throughout times without crisis times. Can you name one currency? Please try to include to those crisis times the affect of the global communications, especially the discovery of the Internet, which has greatly affected to globalism, and accept the fact that none of those technological discoveries is going to diminish the affect of multi nationalism and globalism - UNLESS there's global WW3 and possibly WW4 to get rid of the entire human race on our planet Earth, which would be "The True Final Solution" to the problems we are discussing about. Ok, so this Switzerland thingy again... If I can get 1£, 1€ or 1$ every time I hear/read about mentioning Switzerland as an example of a democracy, I'd be at least some 3000€ or so richer that today.  For a basic reference (including the history) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SwitzerlandSo, please, write a paper how the history of Britain is different from the history of Switzerland and why Britain cannot be a copy of Switzerland, nor it will be with the Brexit. Do note that Switzerland is also a federal state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_as_a_federal_stateI'm not in this forum to tell how you should behave but I'm here to raise questions that maybe you should question yourself. The ability to question oneself is the very very first step to a bit larger understanding of yourself and of us humans in general. You have a weird but a known way to push the responsibility of your own words to someone else. That means, that you will not take any responsibility of what has happened in the history of us human before. If you want to return to some historical past what you once knew about, you will not accept the realities of those bygone eras either. That's the very essence problem of conservative values: The realities of those days are blurred by history and forgetting about the problems existing in those times, including economical problems. "Make xxxxxx great again" slogan like you are referring to in your ideals for supporting Brexit and and what Trump says. When was something "great" in the history of xxxxx? To which era are you referring to in the British or UK history? How long did that "era of greatness" last? > "And no EU member state is capable of following basic democracy. Unelected European Commissioners decide the laws and no public vote can change EU agreed policies and nationally elected minister can be easily outvoted." Please, give it at least a try to understand the realities of this changing world. The news I read about in the real world is, that European Parliament has much less to vote for these days, because EC has already changed their policies of cutting the red tape. It takes a while in any political system to clean up the queue, as in any decision of any kind in a democracy. In a non-democracy there is not such clean-up time, if you understand even the basics of what a democracy and a non-democracy means. BTW, your fixation to this current European Commissioner policy election is part of democracy, although not being a direct one. I'm asking you to find out which governmental structures representatives are directly elected. Can you do that? You can choose whatever country/countries to explain its/their structures. Next question: Should basically all forms of democratical public votings be direct ones? That would mean that we would get rid of the how current democracy is defined, so that indirect voting is not part of democracy any longer, doesn't it? Please explain your thoughts of what your values would bring to the human cultures. Do understand that we are talking about the very very basics of how to define a democracy, all the way with its couple of thousands years of history. BTW: Some Brexit affects to the British culture: http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/1186-the-uk-leaving-the-eu-would-change-the-european-music-industry/https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2016/nov/01/brexit-music-british-bands-eu-referendum-touring-europeYou being a UKIP supporter, you have possibly destroyed a lot of British peoples' future success trying to break it in the music industry. If British people want to support music industry, they have to spend more personal money, one way or another. I presume you will need to pay more taxes for it as well to cover the losses or then the British music industry will suffer the consequences of Brexit. >"I don’t know what you mean by “also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey”. In what sense is it about to follow those countries? The quote above, I leave to you to ponder on regarding the values we humans can have and how those values manifests themselves in different countries around in Europe and its vicinities (but not restricted to the referred geographical area). Your request some direct quotes is bs, meaning that you are not capable of understanding even the basics of yourself and what are the values of which you are constantly expressing. It is YOU who needs to be culturally and valuewise able to reflect to what us humans are capable of and what are those reasons and values of such human beings which have caused such destructions of human life in the past and compared to what we are facing today. How is modern problems in any relation to what nationalism has caused in the past centuries? Can you relate in anything of the past problems to the current ones supporting Brexit? Once again: I'm discussing with a Basic Finn party supporter but in English, or partially, even Change 2011 or Independence Party but maybe not quite with a Blue and White Front supporter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4 (I know that John Cleese has supported Brexit, mainly because of the mass immigration issues within the free movement policies of the EU...)
Oh dear … you proved once again you don’t read my comments.
I said if you quote specific statements from me that you’re interested in, I’d be pleased to supply you with sources. I have no problem with you ’hitting’ them, but you should know that one of my sources is the European Commission before you foolishly denounce them as ‘alt right’. The idea that I should list all my resources is just unreasonable, let alone write a paper for you. This is a message board, FCOL, not a college or university!
I’ve never said we should ‘Make xxxxxx again’, nor have I ever supported (or criticised) anything Trump has said.
My request for direct quotes is to force you to deal with what I have actually said, not what that parody of a Brexit supporter in your imagination says.
So stop wasting my time, Jar. Argue about what I’ve actually said if you must, but stop wasting my time with your pathetic strawman arguments.
But it is interesting that John Cleese should be a Brexit supporter. I had not heard that. Cleese is also one of the Liberal Democrat party’s most vocal celebrity supporters and the Liberal Democrats are the easily the UK’s most EU supportive party.
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jar
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Mar 3 2017, 04:53 PM
Post #511
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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- Nan Tucks Ghost
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- jar
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- jar
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Quoting limited to 5 levels deep http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/daily-chart-15Economist, or pro-EU newspapers like the Guardian and the Independent, or even the viewer funded BBC being at all concerned about that. The print media is in decline partly because people are now aware that there are many more sources of information online. I often have remain voters farcically trying to tell me that the UK is independent even though it’s in the EU despite the press ‘being full of propaganda against the EU’. I don’t rely on the British print or broadcast media for my views, and nor does any other informed Brexiter. I understand more than enough about the EU to know it’s really bad for British Parliamentary democracy. And yes, of course I know that some EU legislation originates from British industry. (The whole single market was a British idea.) Do you think this should make a difference as to how I view the EU? The Chairman of one of UK industry’s most successful companies said in 2009, that ‘the euro is a great success, and in today’s global economy, the pound is no longer an important currency. If we are not careful, we could become like Iceland in the next financial crisis.” I’m so glad no one cared what he thought! Nothing I have said could ever have led you to believe I don’t respect the basics of democracy. You on the other hand, don’t seem to understand the deeply anti-democratic nature of the EU. Or if you do, you’re prepared to go along with it. It doesn’t say much for your belief in democracy. Prresumably, by ‘the broken phone phenomenon’ you mean the game that used to be called ‘Chinese Whispers’ whereby a message is whispered by person to person down a line, and inevitably gets distorted with often hilarious results. Of course, it can also have disastrous consequences in real life situations too. If that’s what you’re thinking of, I hesitate to ask … how is it relevant here? If not, I'm not sure what you mean. I’ve had a lot of jobs. I’d like to ask you this: What turned you into a sanctimonious, pompous idiot?I haven’t dug myself into a trench at all. I disagree with you and you have a problem with that. That’s tough for you. And I’m concerned about many things, including Russian aggression and the EU’s baiting of Russia with its expansion plans, and I’m aware of what you mean regarding Russia. Unlike you though, I don’t see the EU, with its expansionist mentality, as being a part of the solution. The UK is not ‘ass-kissing’ or arse-licking as we would call it here, but advancing UK interests, like most of the world’s countries including most EU member states, advance their own interests, which is what the UK should have been doing all along when we were licking the EU’s arse. Some in the UK still want to lick the EU's arse, but they're a small minority now.
Please list all your resources of the publications in any form known today which have lead to your anti-EU beliefs and attitudes which you have still today. You already stated that "UK press is not a reliable source of unbiased EU related information". So, which are your resources? Are you willing to reveal them? I think you know that printed papers have also their digital forms which we can all read (some not fully without registration and/or paying some additional fee)... Regarding the euro, please also refer to the history of all currencies, which are existing still today which have NOT had immense fluctuations in a country's economy throughout their entire existance and which have lead to ... err... what? Also, none of the current UK countries have adopted euro as their currency, so why bring this subject about? Nor has Finland's neighbouring country Sweden adopted euro currency but we have a long cultural history with Sweden, and Finland is also a bilingual country. For cultural and economical variations in current Europe, and in general for anyone living in so called western countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EurozoneAs the thousands of years old western civilisation is being questioned today, with the Trumpists in USA, Brexit in the UK and similar wishes in especially nationalistic circles throughout European countries, why do you concern yourself about the democracy deficit in the EU? Mind you, I recall that I've asked you several times to compare how the concepts of democracy is followed in Britain/UK and in the EU political structures. I've never restricted any of these concerns to expanded to any other EU or non-EU country either. You have made the decision yourself to restrict your own views to Britain/UK only (and UK can be broken as well, whatever you think of it). You got the basics of the broken phone game correct but without understanding what it means in the origins of what can or needs to be controlled in the terms of large scale changes such as trade agreements. Maybe you should try to understand that many of these EU regulations have actually origins in the very low level of commerce that people get what the resaller advertiser. How does one sell that "my product is of a better quality than the next door one"? Can you tell me how does once set the standards for a quality? Which kind of values are behind those standards? How do standards of any kind of quality develop or change? How does your view of democracy relate to the current state of events outside Europe? Do you understand that also democracy as a value ever discovered by us humans is been questioned by other not-so-democractical values? That includes currently the USA as well, you know. What? Unlike current Russia, or the wishes of extremist Islamic beliefs, nobody is forcing to join to the EU: It is up to the country to decide whether they wish to belong to the basic values of what the EU is representing or not. I'm truly amazed that you brought this viewpoint of your up in the first place. WTF are you talking about??? Are you referring to the fact that not all the current members of the EU (including the lately joined onea) are not capable of following the basic values of democracy, such as freedom of the press and freedom of speech? Are you referring to that also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey? Your posts are full of contradictory views and values which cannot be possible to be existing at the same time without these contradictions.
I don’t have time to list all my resources, never mind the inclination, and I expect to have an anti-EU attitude until the UK leaves the EU at least. It would also be good to see that Europeans want to be ruled by the anti-democratic EU, or the EU changes and becomes democratic. However, if you quote specific statement(s) in which you’re interested, I’ll be pleased to supply you with sources. I brought the euro up merely as an example of the woolly-minded thinking of multinationals and politicians. No currency should be a badly planned vanity project. The EU put its own ambitions before economic sense and tried to fit economically diverse countries into one interest rate. It was never going to work. The EU then expected richer member states to bail out poorer states when the poorer states unsuitability for the Eurozone was exposed. How do you think the citizens of those richer states feel the vanity project being built at their expense? Joining in the effort to prop up the euro is about as popular as buckets of cold vomit in the UK. Our last prime minister assured us he had protected us from being required to join any more bail out funds. He also wanted protection from Eurozone regulations that could potentially damage non-Eurozone countries. He was particularly concerned about the City of London. There was a lot of well-founded cynicism about the reassurances he made. So the fact that the UK is not in the euro does not mean its performance and governance are not of great interest in the UK. I have told you before: You don’t decide what I should be concerned about, and I’ve answered all your questions, though you don’t often get the answers that suit you. Again that’s your problem, not mine. I did not know that thousands of years worth of Western civilisation is being questioned in anything more than the normal philosophical terms. Where is that going on? I rarely comment on other countries, but don’t presume I restrict my views to the UK just because I rarely comment on them. And of course the UK can be broken up with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland leaving a possibility. It’s probably not likely, whatever Scots, Welsh and Irish nationalists like to pretend. It is up to the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish. The English aren’t asked. I think what you know about trade agreements could be written on the back of a postage stamp! I understand from where EU regulations originate. It doesn’t change the fact that the UK can decide its own laws and require companies that export from the UK to comply with the laws of markets in which they trade. No democracy is ideal, except perhaps in Switzerland, where far more decisions are put directly to the people than in most other democracies. In the UK we have a ‘representative’ democracy, ie one where the people we elect act as they see fit between elections. How do you think what happens elsewhere should affect my view of the EU? You already know I don’t see it as any kind of solution to any of the world’s problems. I have never said anyone is or was forced to join the EU, so I’m at a loss to know what you are ‘truly amazed’ about. Straw man argument. And no EU member state is capable of following basic democracy. Unelected European Commissioners decide the laws and no public vote can change EU agreed policies and nationally elected minister can be easily outvoted. I don’t know what you mean by “also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey”. In what sense is it about to follow those countries? Please give me an example of these contradictory views and values you say my posts are ‘full of’ (if you can). I want direct quotes, obviously, please.
That figures that you don't WANT to list your sources, because you know I would hit on those. There's nothing new there as it is basically 100% sure that those sources are majority similar to this 'alt-right' type of news and about blogs from people/groups of people who are constantly living in the nationalistic world only and will not accept that nationalism is just an ism, and that it is a very western life value to question its own discoveries as well.  Please, try to understand this basic value of called western societies, derived from origins of what we have "recently" got to know as Europe. I can well say that a well known economical writer (Jan Hurri) in Finnish publications has very similar views what you have, and about 98% of the articles he has ever written about is for his hatred of the EU and the euro as a currency. Basically, I recall one single article from him in which he ever wrote positively about the entire existence of the EU. No news to me is or to you should be that he's a supporter of the Basic Finns, the equivalent of UKIP. Please, give an example of the history of all ever existed currencies (included currently existing ones) which "have had a good plan" how it is valued throughout times without crisis times. Can you name one currency? Please try to include to those crisis times the affect of the global communications, especially the discovery of the Internet, which has greatly affected to globalism, and accept the fact that none of those technological discoveries is going to diminish the affect of multi nationalism and globalism - UNLESS there's global WW3 and possibly WW4 to get rid of the entire human race on our planet Earth, which would be "The True Final Solution" to the problems we are discussing about. Ok, so this Switzerland thingy again... If I can get 1£, 1€ or 1$ every time I hear/read about mentioning Switzerland as an example of a democracy, I'd be at least some 3000€ or so richer that today.  For a basic reference (including the history) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SwitzerlandSo, please, write a paper how the history of Britain is different from the history of Switzerland and why Britain cannot be a copy of Switzerland, nor it will be with the Brexit. Do note that Switzerland is also a federal state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_as_a_federal_stateI'm not in this forum to tell how you should behave but I'm here to raise questions that maybe you should question yourself. The ability to question oneself is the very very first step to a bit larger understanding of yourself and of us humans in general. You have a weird but a known way to push the responsibility of your own words to someone else. That means, that you will not take any responsibility of what has happened in the history of us human before. If you want to return to some historical past what you once knew about, you will not accept the realities of those bygone eras either. That's the very essence problem of conservative values: The realities of those days are blurred by history and forgetting about the problems existing in those times, including economical problems. "Make xxxxxx great again" slogan like you are referring to in your ideals for supporting Brexit and and what Trump says. When was something "great" in the history of xxxxx? To which era are you referring to in the British or UK history? How long did that "era of greatness" last? > "And no EU member state is capable of following basic democracy. Unelected European Commissioners decide the laws and no public vote can change EU agreed policies and nationally elected minister can be easily outvoted." Please, give it at least a try to understand the realities of this changing world. The news I read about in the real world is, that European Parliament has much less to vote for these days, because EC has already changed their policies of cutting the red tape. It takes a while in any political system to clean up the queue, as in any decision of any kind in a democracy. In a non-democracy there is not such clean-up time, if you understand even the basics of what a democracy and a non-democracy means. BTW, your fixation to this current European Commissioner policy election is part of democracy, although not being a direct one. I'm asking you to find out which governmental structures representatives are directly elected. Can you do that? You can choose whatever country/countries to explain its/their structures. Next question: Should basically all forms of democratical public votings be direct ones? That would mean that we would get rid of the how current democracy is defined, so that indirect voting is not part of democracy any longer, doesn't it? Please explain your thoughts of what your values would bring to the human cultures. Do understand that we are talking about the very very basics of how to define a democracy, all the way with its couple of thousands years of history. BTW: Some Brexit affects to the British culture: http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/1186-the-uk-leaving-the-eu-would-change-the-european-music-industry/https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2016/nov/01/brexit-music-british-bands-eu-referendum-touring-europeYou being a UKIP supporter, you have possibly destroyed a lot of British peoples' future success trying to break it in the music industry. If British people want to support music industry, they have to spend more personal money, one way or another. I presume you will need to pay more taxes for it as well to cover the losses or then the British music industry will suffer the consequences of Brexit. >"I don’t know what you mean by “also UK press (printed and/or online) is about to follow countries like Poland and Hungary and non-EU countries such as Turkey”. In what sense is it about to follow those countries? The quote above, I leave to you to ponder on regarding the values we humans can have and how those values manifests themselves in different countries around in Europe and its vicinities (but not restricted to the referred geographical area). Your request some direct quotes is bs, meaning that you are not capable of understanding even the basics of yourself and what are the values of which you are constantly expressing. It is YOU who needs to be culturally and valuewise able to reflect to what us humans are capable of and what are those reasons and values of such human beings which have caused such destructions of human life in the past and compared to what we are facing today. How is modern problems in any relation to what nationalism has caused in the past centuries? Can you relate in anything of the past problems to the current ones supporting Brexit? Once again: I'm discussing with a Basic Finn party supporter but in English, or partially, even Change 2011 or Independence Party but maybe not quite with a Blue and White Front supporter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4 (I know that John Cleese has supported Brexit, mainly because of the mass immigration issues within the free movement policies of the EU...)
Oh dear … you proved once again you don’t read my comments. I said if you quote specific statements from me that you’re interested in, I’d be pleased to supply you with sources. I have no problem with you ’hitting’ them, but you should know that one of my sources is the European Commission before you foolishly denounce them as ‘alt right’. The idea that I should list all my resources is just unreasonable, let alone write a paper for you. This is a message board, FCOL, not a college or university! I’ve never said we should ‘Make xxxxxx again’, nor have I ever supported (or criticised) anything Trump has said. My request for direct quotes is to force you to deal with what I have actually said, not what that parody of a Brexit supporter in your imagination says.
So stop wasting my time, Jar. Argue about what I’ve actually said if you must, but stop wasting my time with your pathetic strawman arguments. But it is interesting that John Cleese should be a Brexit supporter. I had not heard that. Cleese is also one of the Liberal Democrat party’s most vocal celebrity supporters and the Liberal Democrats are the easily the UK’s most EU supportive party. Dear, I read you "loud and clear"
The problem you have is, again as stated many times already, that your views do not have country boundaries but defined by rather strictly defined ideologies and values thereof.
I don't see a point discussing about "specific statements" because by far all of your posts in this forum (I don't know what you've possibly written in any educational institutions... ) are based on those ideologies, values and isms.
Did you understand why I included the particular clip from Life of Brian, uh? What is that clip referring to? Do you see any relation to what we have discussed in this particular thread and also way before?
The reason: I'm asking you to take "a leap of faith" and start discussing about taking responsibility of what you are saying and what "your view of the issues" means at the hands of humans in the masses.
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/773826/Gerard-Batten-slams-Jean-Claude-Juncker-European-Union-future-plan-Brexit-news
This is an expected bashing from UKIP (and Brexit Britain supporters in general) of NOT taking any kind of responsibility of THEMSELVES what they have THEMSELVES caused (like the Brexit ) but keep on pushing all the problems to the EC (and EU in general): Not considering anything about wider view of the global planet, how globalism has changed the entire way of how different powers act in the world, nothing of the history of economical ups and downs...
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All of these kind of speeches doesn't really have any "home" in England in particular as they are worldwide, based on certain ideologies, values and isms, spread across the planet in the history of us humans. I must say this again: Those ideologies, values and isms, are majorly discovered by Europe as a continent, including the basics of modern economical structures. The EU is also a phenomenon of these discoveries, although the WW2 era powers had their influences to the birth of it.
The point I try to bring: This is the continent known today as Europe. It is able to question the old discoveries and giving birth to new ones - unless its members are returning to the past and just trying to repeat its "former glory" with trying to repeat its own discoveries with the same ideologies, values and isms.
If England or UKIP has better way to deal with the global world we live in today without wishing to return the clock back to the more simpler times, then why don't you bring one out to the public, eh? You just need to deal with the all the s**t you will get from whoever your subject is affecting about and need to learn who should not be listened to, but without forgetting the basics of democracy - unless you want to repeal the very basics of democracy in reality or what your acts will result to anyway when talking about masses of people.
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jar
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Mar 10 2017, 12:44 PM
Post #512
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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This is what every UKIP supporter believes in, wants to believe or is fed to believe from the throat down:


If somebody says they don't "want or support that", then they voted the wrong party or their ideals. It is so obvious and wide spread slogan.
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jar
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Mar 24 2017, 05:27 PM
Post #513
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Previously 'jr' (before the site crash)
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For whomever following this thread:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/01/nigel-farage-among-ukip-meps-accused-of-misusing-eu-funds
This is the reality of the "upsurge" of nationalistic behaviour of real humans, which should NOT have come up as a surprise for ANYONE who understands something about us human beings in general and how values of people reflects the behaviour patterns.
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Nan Tucks Ghost
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Mar 25 2017, 06:16 PM
Post #514
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- jar
- Mar 10 2017, 12:44 PM
This is what every UKIP supporter belieIves in, wants to believe or is fed to believe from the throat down:   If somebody says they don't "want or support that", then they voted the wrong party or their ideals. It is so obvious and wide spread slogan. You have no idea what any UKIP supporter believes unless they tell you.
I voted for UKIP because I believe it has more of the right ideals than any other party. I do not regret voting for UKIP, not even for a for a moment.
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Nan Tucks Ghost
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Mar 25 2017, 06:23 PM
Post #515
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It may be an unfamiliar concept to you, but we in Britain believe that someone is innocent before the law until they are proven guilty. Another accusation proves f*** all. It's always jam tomorrow for europhiles where UKIP is concerned.
Theresa May is to invoke Article 50 this Wednesday.
And Jean Claude has confirmed that the EU will not seek to 'punish' the UK in the Brexit negotiations. Perhaps it's dawned on him that if the EU tries, it will end up punishing the remaining EU states.
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jar
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Mar 29 2017, 01:51 PM
Post #516
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Very Brexit Problems: A short history of Britain's relationship with the EU:

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jar
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Mar 29 2017, 02:00 PM
Post #517
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It may be an unfamiliar concept to you, but we in Britain believe that someone is innocent before the law until they are proven guilty. Another accusation proves f*** all. It's always jam tomorrow for europhiles where UKIP is concerned. Theresa May is to invoke Article 50 this Wednesday. And Jean Claude has confirmed that the EU will not seek to 'punish' the UK in the Brexit negotiations. Perhaps it's dawned on him that if the EU tries, it will end up punishing the remaining EU states. http://nordic.businessinsider.com/nigel-farage-will-leave-britain-if-brexit-is-a-disaster-2017-3?r=UK&IR=T
Example how fast these people change their minds... Basically, in his words, he has changed his mind about moving three times already in a few months.  Nothing new from these erratic jokers who can't take any responsibility of their actions or words. It's a very common behaviour pattern with like-minded people, you know
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Robertr2000
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Mar 30 2017, 10:02 AM
Post #518
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The EU must die.
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"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
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Mar 30 2017, 03:50 PM
Post #519
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- jar
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It may be an unfamiliar concept to you, but we in Britain believe that someone is innocent before the law until they are proven guilty. Another accusation proves f*** all. It's always jam tomorrow for europhiles where UKIP is concerned. Theresa May is to invoke Article 50 this Wednesday. And Jean Claude has confirmed that the EU will not seek to 'punish' the UK in the Brexit negotiations. Perhaps it's dawned on him that if the EU tries, it will end up punishing the remaining EU states. http://nordic.businessinsider.com/nigel-farage-will-leave-britain-if-brexit-is-a-disaster-2017-3?r=UK&IR=TExample how fast these people change their minds... Basically, in his words, he has changed his mind about moving three times already in a few months.  Nothing new from these erratic jokers who can't take any responsibility of their actions or words. It's a very common behaviour pattern with like-minded people, you know  Jar, did you listen to what Farage actually said? Did you miss the context in which he said it?
He was asked if he’d apologise if Brexit turned out to be disastrous. He replied saying he didn’t think it would be, but that if it was he’d emigrate. It seemed clear to me that if he was wrong, he’d leave the country, so profound would be his error!
And what is it about Farage not having any power or responsibility for Brexit? He has made it perfectly clear that he will play any role in the process he can, but the government has refused to allow him one. What it is you want him to do? I have asked you this before when you’ve made this point, but you just drop the subject, then resurrect it again like a broken record! It’s you who is the joker, you know.
And when has he changed his mind about moving at all, let alone three times?
Have you read Article 50? Your time would be better spent understanding the UK’s position as leaving is now official government policy, rather than obsessing over Farage and UKIP, if you want to try add something worthwhile to this debate.
CLICK HERE TO READ IT.
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Nan Tucks Ghost
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Mar 30 2017, 05:22 PM
Post #520
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The above link is to the UK PM Theresa May's letter to Donald Tusk
This is ARTICLE 50:
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
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