Trump vs. the “Deep State”

Joined: October 24th, 2017, 9:43 am

May 14th, 2018, 10:29 pm #1

Two months after Donald Trump’s Inauguration, the White House took a sudden interest in a civil servant named Sahar Nowrouzzadeh. At thirty-four, she was largely unknown outside a small community of national-security specialists. Nowrouzzadeh, born in Trumbull, Connecticut, grew up with no connection to Washington. Her parents had emigrated from Iran, so that her father could finish his training in obstetrics, and they hoped that she would become a doctor or, failing that, an engineer or a lawyer. But on September 11, 2001, Nowrouzzadeh was a freshman at George Washington University, which is close enough to the Pentagon that students could see plumes of smoke climb into the sky. She became interested in global affairs and did internships at the State Department and the National Iranian American Council, a Washington nonprofit. George W. Bush’s Administration appealed for help from Americans familiar with the culture of the Middle East, and, after graduation, Nowrouzzadeh became an analyst in the Department of Defense, using her command of Arabic, Persian, and Dari. (Her brother, a Navy doctor, served in Iraq.) For nearly a decade, Nowrouzzadeh worked mostly on secret programs, winning awards from the Departments of Defense and State, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, and the F.B.I.

In 2014, she was detailed to the National Security Council, as an Iran specialist, and helped to broker the nuclear deal. One of the most intensely debated questions among American negotiators was how far they could push Iran for concessions, and Nowrouzzadeh proved unusually able to identify, and exploit, subtle divides in Tehran. “She was aggressive,” Norman Roule, the C.I.A.’s highest-ranking Iran specialist at the time, told me. “She worked very hard to follow policymakers’ goals. She could speak Persian. She could understand culture. She is one of the most patriotic people I know.” In 2016, Nowrouzzadeh joined the policy-planning staff of the State Department, a team of experts who advised Secretary of State John Kerry. At times, she advocated a harsher approach to Iran than Kerry was pursuing, but he cherished Nowrouzzadeh’s “unvarnished judgment,” he told me. “I liked someone who relied on facts and could tell me when she disagreed with my interpretation. Give me that any day over a bunch of yes-men.”

On March 14, 2017, Conservative Review, a Web site that opposed the Iran deal, published an article portraying Nowrouzzadeh as a traitorous stooge. The story, titled “Iran Deal Architect Is Running Tehran Policy at the State Dept.,” derided her as a “trusted Obama aide,” whose work “resulted in an agreement that has done enormous damage to the security interests of the United States.” David Wurmser, who had been an adviser to Vice-President Dick Cheney, e-mailed the article to Newt Gingrich, the former Speaker of the House. “I think a cleaning is in order here,” Wurmser wrote. Gingrich forwarded the message to an aide to Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, with the subject line “i thought you should be aware of this.”

As the article circulated inside the Administration, Sean Doocey, a White House aide overseeing personnel, e-mailed colleagues to ask for details of Nowrouzzadeh’s “appointment authority”—the rules by which a federal worker can be hired, moved, or fired. He received a reply from Julia Haller, a former Trump campaign worker, newly appointed to the State Department. Haller wrote that it would be “easy” to remove Nowrouzzadeh from the policy-planning staff. She had “worked on the Iran Deal,” Haller noted, “was born in Iran, and upon my understanding cried when the President won.” Nowrouzzadeh was unaware of these discussions. All she knew was that her experience at work started to change.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018 ... deep-state
Will Munny in 'Unforgiven': "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it..."
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Joined: October 24th, 2017, 9:43 am

May 14th, 2018, 10:30 pm #2

wrote:The early mistakes in Iraq were like land mines sown in the soil. They continued erupting for years, in the form of division and decay. Similarly, the mistakes that the Trump Administration has made are likely to multiply: the dismantling of the State Department; the denigration of the civil service; the exclusion of experts on Iran and climate change; the fictional statistics about undocumented immigrants; and the effort to squelch dissent across the government. Absent a radical change, the Administration has no mechanism for self-correction. It will not get normal; it will get worse.

Trump is less impeded than ever, a fact that impresses even those he has mocked and spurned. Stephen Bannon (who Trump said had “lost his mind”) recently told me, “He is unchained. This is primal Trump—back to the leader he was during the campaign, the same one the American people voted into office. There are no more McMasters in the apparatus. He’s got s**t he’s got to get done, and he’s just going to get it done.”

Midway through its second year, Trump’s White House is at war within and without, racing to banish the “disloyals” and to beat back threatening information. Bit by bit, the White House is becoming Trump’s Emerald City: isolated, fortified against nonbelievers, entranced by its mythmaker, and constantly vulnerable to the risks of revelation. ♦
Will Munny in 'Unforgiven': "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it..."
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Joined: June 20th, 2016, 8:10 pm

May 14th, 2018, 10:31 pm #3

Partying in Beantown
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Joined: March 17th, 2016, 11:16 pm

May 15th, 2018, 1:31 am #4

RaiderNation wrote:
wrote:The early mistakes in Iraq were like land mines sown in the soil. They continued erupting for years, in the form of division and decay. Similarly, the mistakes that the Trump Administration has made are likely to multiply: the dismantling of the State Department; the denigration of the civil service; the exclusion of experts on Iran and climate change; the fictional statistics about undocumented immigrants; and the effort to squelch dissent across the government. Absent a radical change, the Administration has no mechanism for self-correction. It will not get normal; it will get worse.

Trump is less impeded than ever, a fact that impresses even those he has mocked and spurned. Stephen Bannon (who Trump said had “lost his mind”) recently told me, “He is unchained. This is primal Trump—back to the leader he was during the campaign, the same one the American people voted into office. There are no more McMasters in the apparatus. He’s got s**t he’s got to get done, and he’s just going to get it done.”

Midway through its second year, Trump’s White House is at war within and without, racing to banish the “disloyals” and to beat back threatening information. Bit by bit, the White House is becoming Trump’s Emerald City: isolated, fortified against nonbelievers, entranced by its mythmaker, and constantly vulnerable to the risks of revelation. ♦
Personally, I believe that Trump has put the United States on an accelerated path to decline, furthering what started under GWB. At the end of the Clinton administration the U.S. was the undisputed military superpower. That was based somewhat on illusion, but an illusion that is strongly believed can be quite powerful. GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.

Of course Obama didn't do a great deal to rebuild that illusion of our being a military superpower, but he DID spend a great deal of time and effort in trying to cultivate and strengthen our alliances, and the next best thing to being a military superpower is to have robust alliances with a large number moderate military powers.

Well, Trump hasn't succeeded at destroying those alliances, quite yet. But he has severely strained them. And given another couple of years of his administration, he may force our one time allies to seek other alliances, ones that are more stable and predictable. Allies that can be counted on not to shift with the wind and always put their own interests ahead of those of the alliance as a whole.

With the limits of our military might exposed and our alliances tattered if not completely torn, our ability to accomplish things using just the possibility that we might intervene militarily is greatly reduced. Basically, if we really want to get things accomplished, we'll have to send in the troops. And the places we'll be able to do that with a free hand will become smaller and smaller, because the newly reconfigured alliances that will form to fill in the vacuum we'll be leaving. And such uses of military force are exceedingly expensive, and we're going to be less and less able to afford it.

Eventually, we'll be much like the UK, once a global power but reduced to being mostly a regional player with some limited ability to impact things outside our immediate vicinity.

This was probably going to be inevitable, but there was the chance that if we played our cards right we could have put that day off for quite a while longer, perhaps several decades. As it is, I expect we've got maybe 10 years before our world power has been eclipsed by, most likely, the Chinese.
Last edited by Opinionated on May 15th, 2018, 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 26th, 2017, 1:43 am

May 15th, 2018, 2:07 am #5

Opinionated wrote:
RaiderNation wrote:
wrote:The early mistakes in Iraq were like land mines sown in the soil. They continued erupting for years, in the form of division and decay. Similarly, the mistakes that the Trump Administration has made are likely to multiply: the dismantling of the State Department; the denigration of the civil service; the exclusion of experts on Iran and climate change; the fictional statistics about undocumented immigrants; and the effort to squelch dissent across the government. Absent a radical change, the Administration has no mechanism for self-correction. It will not get normal; it will get worse.

Trump is less impeded than ever, a fact that impresses even those he has mocked and spurned. Stephen Bannon (who Trump said had “lost his mind”) recently told me, “He is unchained. This is primal Trump—back to the leader he was during the campaign, the same one the American people voted into office. There are no more McMasters in the apparatus. He’s got s**t he’s got to get done, and he’s just going to get it done.”

Midway through its second year, Trump’s White House is at war within and without, racing to banish the “disloyals” and to beat back threatening information. Bit by bit, the White House is becoming Trump’s Emerald City: isolated, fortified against nonbelievers, entranced by its mythmaker, and constantly vulnerable to the risks of revelation. ♦
Personally, I believe that Trump has put the United States on an accelerated path to decline, furthering what started under GWB. At the end of the Clinton administration the U.S. was the undisputed military superpower. That was based somewhat on illusion, but an illusion that is strongly believed can be quite powerful. GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.

Of course Obama didn't do a great deal to rebuild that illusion of our being a military superpower, but he DID spend a great deal of time and effort in trying to cultivate and strengthen our alliances, and the next best thing to being a military superpower is to have robust alliances with a large number moderate military powers.

Well, Trump hasn't succeeded at destroying those alliances, quite yet. But he has severely strained them. And given another couple of years of his administration, he may force our one time allies to seek other alliances, ones that are more stable and predictable. Allies that can be counted on not to shift with the wind and always put their own interests ahead of those of the alliance as a whole.

With the limits of our military might exposed and our alliances tattered if not completely torn, our ability to accomplish things using just the possibility that we might intervene militarily is greatly reduced. Basically, if we really want to get things accomplished, we'll have to send in the troops. And the places we'll be able to do that with a free hand will become smaller and smaller, because the newly reconfigured alliances that will form to fill in the vacuum we'll be leaving. And such uses of military force are exceedingly expensive, and we're going to be less and less able to afford it.

Eventually, we'll be much like the UK, once a global power but reduced to being mostly a regional player with some limited ability to impact things outside our immediate vicinity.

This was probably going to be inevitable, but there was the chance that if we played our cards right we could have put that day off for quite a while longer, perhaps several decades. As it is, I expect we've got maybe 10 years before our world power has been eclipsed by, most likely, the Chinese.
Yeah....yeah....Sure.... :rollseyes:
“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.”

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Joined: March 22nd, 2016, 11:43 pm

May 15th, 2018, 2:16 am #6

Opinionated wrote:
RaiderNation wrote:
wrote:The early mistakes in Iraq were like land mines sown in the soil. They continued erupting for years, in the form of division and decay. Similarly, the mistakes that the Trump Administration has made are likely to multiply: the dismantling of the State Department; the denigration of the civil service; the exclusion of experts on Iran and climate change; the fictional statistics about undocumented immigrants; and the effort to squelch dissent across the government. Absent a radical change, the Administration has no mechanism for self-correction. It will not get normal; it will get worse.

Trump is less impeded than ever, a fact that impresses even those he has mocked and spurned. Stephen Bannon (who Trump said had “lost his mind”) recently told me, “He is unchained. This is primal Trump—back to the leader he was during the campaign, the same one the American people voted into office. There are no more McMasters in the apparatus. He’s got s**t he’s got to get done, and he’s just going to get it done.”

Midway through its second year, Trump’s White House is at war within and without, racing to banish the “disloyals” and to beat back threatening information. Bit by bit, the White House is becoming Trump’s Emerald City: isolated, fortified against nonbelievers, entranced by its mythmaker, and constantly vulnerable to the risks of revelation. ♦
Personally, I believe that Trump has put the United States on an accelerated path to decline, furthering what started under GWB. At the end of the Clinton administration the U.S. was the undisputed military superpower. That was based somewhat on illusion, but an illusion that is strongly believed can be quite powerful. GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.

Of course Obama didn't do a great deal to rebuild that illusion of our being a military superpower, but he DID spend a great deal of time and effort in trying to cultivate and strengthen our alliances, and the next best thing to being a military superpower is to have robust alliances with a large number moderate military powers.

Well, Trump hasn't succeeded at destroying those alliances, quite yet. But he has severely strained them. And given another couple of years of his administration, he may force our one time allies to seek other alliances, ones that are more stable and predictable. Allies that can be counted on not to shift with the wind and always put their own interests ahead of those of the alliance as a whole.

With the limits of our military might exposed and our alliances tattered if not completely torn, our ability to accomplish things using just the possibility that we might intervene militarily is greatly reduced. Basically, if we really want to get things accomplished, we'll have to send in the troops. And the places we'll be able to do that with a free hand will become smaller and smaller, because the newly reconfigured alliances that will form to fill in the vacuum we'll be leaving. And such uses of military force are exceedingly expensive, and we're going to be less and less able to afford it.

Eventually, we'll be much like the UK, once a global power but reduced to being mostly a regional player with some limited ability to impact things outside our immediate vicinity.

This was probably going to be inevitable, but there was the chance that if we played our cards right we could have put that day off for quite a while longer, perhaps several decades. As it is, I expect we've got maybe 10 years before our world power has been eclipsed by, most likely, the Chinese.
I've never seen a more delusional post in all my life.
Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt - Sun Tzu
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Joined: March 17th, 2016, 11:16 pm

May 15th, 2018, 2:31 pm #7

Right-Wing wrote:
Opinionated wrote:
RaiderNation wrote:
wrote:The early mistakes in Iraq were like land mines sown in the soil. They continued erupting for years, in the form of division and decay. Similarly, the mistakes that the Trump Administration has made are likely to multiply: the dismantling of the State Department; the denigration of the civil service; the exclusion of experts on Iran and climate change; the fictional statistics about undocumented immigrants; and the effort to squelch dissent across the government. Absent a radical change, the Administration has no mechanism for self-correction. It will not get normal; it will get worse.

Trump is less impeded than ever, a fact that impresses even those he has mocked and spurned. Stephen Bannon (who Trump said had “lost his mind”) recently told me, “He is unchained. This is primal Trump—back to the leader he was during the campaign, the same one the American people voted into office. There are no more McMasters in the apparatus. He’s got s**t he’s got to get done, and he’s just going to get it done.”

Midway through its second year, Trump’s White House is at war within and without, racing to banish the “disloyals” and to beat back threatening information. Bit by bit, the White House is becoming Trump’s Emerald City: isolated, fortified against nonbelievers, entranced by its mythmaker, and constantly vulnerable to the risks of revelation. ♦
Personally, I believe that Trump has put the United States on an accelerated path to decline, furthering what started under GWB. At the end of the Clinton administration the U.S. was the undisputed military superpower. That was based somewhat on illusion, but an illusion that is strongly believed can be quite powerful. GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.

Of course Obama didn't do a great deal to rebuild that illusion of our being a military superpower, but he DID spend a great deal of time and effort in trying to cultivate and strengthen our alliances, and the next best thing to being a military superpower is to have robust alliances with a large number moderate military powers.

Well, Trump hasn't succeeded at destroying those alliances, quite yet. But he has severely strained them. And given another couple of years of his administration, he may force our one time allies to seek other alliances, ones that are more stable and predictable. Allies that can be counted on not to shift with the wind and always put their own interests ahead of those of the alliance as a whole.

With the limits of our military might exposed and our alliances tattered if not completely torn, our ability to accomplish things using just the possibility that we might intervene militarily is greatly reduced. Basically, if we really want to get things accomplished, we'll have to send in the troops. And the places we'll be able to do that with a free hand will become smaller and smaller, because the newly reconfigured alliances that will form to fill in the vacuum we'll be leaving. And such uses of military force are exceedingly expensive, and we're going to be less and less able to afford it.

Eventually, we'll be much like the UK, once a global power but reduced to being mostly a regional player with some limited ability to impact things outside our immediate vicinity.

This was probably going to be inevitable, but there was the chance that if we played our cards right we could have put that day off for quite a while longer, perhaps several decades. As it is, I expect we've got maybe 10 years before our world power has been eclipsed by, most likely, the Chinese.
I've never seen a more delusional post in all my life.
Thank you, given that you're one of the major Trump kool aid drinkers, I'd be worried if you saw it otherwise.
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Joined: June 20th, 2016, 8:10 pm

May 15th, 2018, 2:45 pm #8

Opinionated wrote: GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.
Don't forget that 29 Democrat Senators voted for the Iraq War, including Hilary Clinton, John Kerry and Joe Biden.
Last edited by _g R_ on May 15th, 2018, 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 5th, 2016, 12:55 am

May 15th, 2018, 2:52 pm #9

Opinionated wrote:
Right-Wing wrote:
Opinionated wrote:
RaiderNation wrote:
wrote:The early mistakes in Iraq were like land mines sown in the soil. They continued erupting for years, in the form of division and decay. Similarly, the mistakes that the Trump Administration has made are likely to multiply: the dismantling of the State Department; the denigration of the civil service; the exclusion of experts on Iran and climate change; the fictional statistics about undocumented immigrants; and the effort to squelch dissent across the government. Absent a radical change, the Administration has no mechanism for self-correction. It will not get normal; it will get worse.

Trump is less impeded than ever, a fact that impresses even those he has mocked and spurned. Stephen Bannon (who Trump said had “lost his mind”) recently told me, “He is unchained. This is primal Trump—back to the leader he was during the campaign, the same one the American people voted into office. There are no more McMasters in the apparatus. He’s got s**t he’s got to get done, and he’s just going to get it done.”

Midway through its second year, Trump’s White House is at war within and without, racing to banish the “disloyals” and to beat back threatening information. Bit by bit, the White House is becoming Trump’s Emerald City: isolated, fortified against nonbelievers, entranced by its mythmaker, and constantly vulnerable to the risks of revelation. ♦
Personally, I believe that Trump has put the United States on an accelerated path to decline, furthering what started under GWB. At the end of the Clinton administration the U.S. was the undisputed military superpower. That was based somewhat on illusion, but an illusion that is strongly believed can be quite powerful. GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.

Of course Obama didn't do a great deal to rebuild that illusion of our being a military superpower, but he DID spend a great deal of time and effort in trying to cultivate and strengthen our alliances, and the next best thing to being a military superpower is to have robust alliances with a large number moderate military powers.

Well, Trump hasn't succeeded at destroying those alliances, quite yet. But he has severely strained them. And given another couple of years of his administration, he may force our one time allies to seek other alliances, ones that are more stable and predictable. Allies that can be counted on not to shift with the wind and always put their own interests ahead of those of the alliance as a whole.

With the limits of our military might exposed and our alliances tattered if not completely torn, our ability to accomplish things using just the possibility that we might intervene militarily is greatly reduced. Basically, if we really want to get things accomplished, we'll have to send in the troops. And the places we'll be able to do that with a free hand will become smaller and smaller, because the newly reconfigured alliances that will form to fill in the vacuum we'll be leaving. And such uses of military force are exceedingly expensive, and we're going to be less and less able to afford it.

Eventually, we'll be much like the UK, once a global power but reduced to being mostly a regional player with some limited ability to impact things outside our immediate vicinity.

This was probably going to be inevitable, but there was the chance that if we played our cards right we could have put that day off for quite a while longer, perhaps several decades. As it is, I expect we've got maybe 10 years before our world power has been eclipsed by, most likely, the Chinese.
I've never seen a more delusional post in all my life.
Thank you, given that you're one of the major Trump kool aid drinkers, I'd be worried if you saw it otherwise.
Tangible proof Liberals are indeed delusional....

Democrats are losing their slaves. For the second time...#WalkAway
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Joined: June 20th, 2016, 8:10 pm

May 15th, 2018, 3:13 pm #10

clone wrote:
Opinionated wrote:
Right-Wing wrote:
Opinionated wrote:
RaiderNation wrote: Quoting limited to 5 levels deep
Personally, I believe that Trump has put the United States on an accelerated path to decline, furthering what started under GWB. At the end of the Clinton administration the U.S. was the undisputed military superpower. That was based somewhat on illusion, but an illusion that is strongly believed can be quite powerful. GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.

Of course Obama didn't do a great deal to rebuild that illusion of our being a military superpower, but he DID spend a great deal of time and effort in trying to cultivate and strengthen our alliances, and the next best thing to being a military superpower is to have robust alliances with a large number moderate military powers.

Well, Trump hasn't succeeded at destroying those alliances, quite yet. But he has severely strained them. And given another couple of years of his administration, he may force our one time allies to seek other alliances, ones that are more stable and predictable. Allies that can be counted on not to shift with the wind and always put their own interests ahead of those of the alliance as a whole.

With the limits of our military might exposed and our alliances tattered if not completely torn, our ability to accomplish things using just the possibility that we might intervene militarily is greatly reduced. Basically, if we really want to get things accomplished, we'll have to send in the troops. And the places we'll be able to do that with a free hand will become smaller and smaller, because the newly reconfigured alliances that will form to fill in the vacuum we'll be leaving. And such uses of military force are exceedingly expensive, and we're going to be less and less able to afford it.

Eventually, we'll be much like the UK, once a global power but reduced to being mostly a regional player with some limited ability to impact things outside our immediate vicinity.

This was probably going to be inevitable, but there was the chance that if we played our cards right we could have put that day off for quite a while longer, perhaps several decades. As it is, I expect we've got maybe 10 years before our world power has been eclipsed by, most likely, the Chinese.
I've never seen a more delusional post in all my life.
Thank you, given that you're one of the major Trump kool aid drinkers, I'd be worried if you saw it otherwise.
Tangible proof Liberals are indeed delusional....

Sooooo which one in that picture is a "liberal". ??
Partying in Beantown
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Joined: March 17th, 2016, 11:16 pm

May 15th, 2018, 4:10 pm #11

clone wrote:
Opinionated wrote:
Right-Wing wrote:
Opinionated wrote:
RaiderNation wrote: Quoting limited to 5 levels deep
Personally, I believe that Trump has put the United States on an accelerated path to decline, furthering what started under GWB. At the end of the Clinton administration the U.S. was the undisputed military superpower. That was based somewhat on illusion, but an illusion that is strongly believed can be quite powerful. GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.

Of course Obama didn't do a great deal to rebuild that illusion of our being a military superpower, but he DID spend a great deal of time and effort in trying to cultivate and strengthen our alliances, and the next best thing to being a military superpower is to have robust alliances with a large number moderate military powers.

Well, Trump hasn't succeeded at destroying those alliances, quite yet. But he has severely strained them. And given another couple of years of his administration, he may force our one time allies to seek other alliances, ones that are more stable and predictable. Allies that can be counted on not to shift with the wind and always put their own interests ahead of those of the alliance as a whole.

With the limits of our military might exposed and our alliances tattered if not completely torn, our ability to accomplish things using just the possibility that we might intervene militarily is greatly reduced. Basically, if we really want to get things accomplished, we'll have to send in the troops. And the places we'll be able to do that with a free hand will become smaller and smaller, because the newly reconfigured alliances that will form to fill in the vacuum we'll be leaving. And such uses of military force are exceedingly expensive, and we're going to be less and less able to afford it.

Eventually, we'll be much like the UK, once a global power but reduced to being mostly a regional player with some limited ability to impact things outside our immediate vicinity.

This was probably going to be inevitable, but there was the chance that if we played our cards right we could have put that day off for quite a while longer, perhaps several decades. As it is, I expect we've got maybe 10 years before our world power has been eclipsed by, most likely, the Chinese.
I've never seen a more delusional post in all my life.
Thank you, given that you're one of the major Trump kool aid drinkers, I'd be worried if you saw it otherwise.
Tangible proof Liberals are indeed delusional....

Ah, the "I've Got A Pointless Meme That Has Nothing To Do With The Topic", response.
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Joined: March 22nd, 2016, 11:43 pm

May 15th, 2018, 11:43 pm #12

.
Last edited by Right-Wing on May 15th, 2018, 11:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt - Sun Tzu
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May 15th, 2018, 11:46 pm #13

Opinionated wrote:Thank you, given that you're one of the major Trump kool aid drinkers, I'd be worried if you saw it otherwise.
wrote:Personally, I believe that Trump has put the United States on an accelerated path to decline, furthering what started under GWB. At the end of the Clinton administration the U.S. was the undisputed military superpower. That was based somewhat on illusion, but an illusion that is strongly believed can be quite powerful. GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.
We are still the worlds undisputed military superpower, only someone who had no f*cking clue what they were talking about would think otherwise. Here's some reading to highlight your delusion
The Pentagon’s spending increase is more than Russia’s entire military budget
https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/pax ... ary-budget
wrote:Of course Obama didn't do a great deal to rebuild that illusion of our being a military superpower, but he DID spend a great deal of time and effort in trying to cultivate and strengthen our alliances, and the next best thing to being a military superpower is to have robust alliances with a large number moderate military powers.
WTF? Alliances with whom? Iran? Russia? Obama went on an apology tour and little else...except for failing on red lines and trading hardened terrorists for traitors. Obama was a f*cking disaster, no two ways about it.
wrote:Well, Trump hasn't succeeded at destroying those alliances, quite yet. But he has severely strained them. And given another couple of years of his administration, he may force our one time allies to seek other alliances, ones that are more stable and predictable. Allies that can be counted on not to shift with the wind and always put their own interests ahead of those of the alliance as a whole.
Trump has strengthened our alliances all across the world and he has put bad actors like China, Russia and North Korea on notice that the US will no longer tolerate their bulls**t. He can destroy their countries without firing a shot using the might of the US economy as ultimate leverage.
wrote:With the limits of our military might exposed and our alliances tattered if not completely torn, our ability to accomplish things using just the possibility that we might intervene militarily is greatly reduced. Basically, if we really want to get things accomplished, we'll have to send in the troops. And the places we'll be able to do that with a free hand will become smaller and smaller, because the newly reconfigured alliances that will form to fill in the vacuum we'll be leaving. And such uses of military force are exceedingly expensive, and we're going to be less and less able to afford it.
Again, you have no fricking clue what you're talking about! Our military might is just fine and our alliances are stronger than ever. Further Trump's doctrine does not rely on the American military to force bad actors to change their ways...he just threatens to cut off their access to the American market and voila...they change their fricking ways. Case in point...China and North Korea.
wrote:Eventually, we'll be much like the UK, once a global power but reduced to being mostly a regional player with some limited ability to impact things outside our immediate vicinity
Stupid, just f*cking stupid. We are the worlds largest economy by a long shot and Trump is making us more competitive by reducing corporate taxes at home and negotiating better trade deals abroad.
wrote:This was probably going to be inevitable, but there was the chance that if we played our cards right we could have put that day off for quite a while longer, perhaps several decades. As it is, I expect we've got maybe 10 years before our world power has been eclipsed by, most likely, the Chinese.
Yes, this was set in motion by Bubba Clinton when he gave China "Most Favored Nation Status" talk to him about it. You are off on your estimation though...it'll be more like 30 or so years before they eclipse the US in any meaningful metric.

Last edited by Right-Wing on May 15th, 2018, 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt - Sun Tzu
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Joined: March 20th, 2016, 8:33 pm

May 15th, 2018, 11:51 pm #14

Right-Wing wrote:.
1. Quality > Quantity, always. Paper soldiers can only do so much....

2. Ah yes, another arm chair general...

3. Our economy is experiencing an illusion of "health"...or well, maybe the Trump flavored kool aid drinkers are just hallucinating....
"...a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is detrimental...having lost the will..to demand...good..." - Rachel Carson
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Joined: March 19th, 2016, 4:52 am

May 16th, 2018, 1:52 pm #15

Opinionated's government checks are not increasing to keep up with inflation

=

AMERICA IS ON THE PATH TO DECLINE :)
I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me
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Joined: April 5th, 2016, 12:55 am

May 16th, 2018, 6:19 pm #16

estonianman wrote:Opinionated's government checks are not increasing to keep up with inflation

=

AMERICA IS ON THE PATH TO DECLINE :)


Look for the term "Crossfire Hurricane" to hit the politcal lexicon soon....

:popcorn:
Last edited by clone on May 16th, 2018, 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Democrats are losing their slaves. For the second time...#WalkAway
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Joined: March 19th, 2016, 1:42 am

May 16th, 2018, 7:51 pm #17

Opinionated wrote:
RaiderNation wrote:
wrote:The early mistakes in Iraq were like land mines sown in the soil. They continued erupting for years, in the form of division and decay. Similarly, the mistakes that the Trump Administration has made are likely to multiply: the dismantling of the State Department; the denigration of the civil service; the exclusion of experts on Iran and climate change; the fictional statistics about undocumented immigrants; and the effort to squelch dissent across the government. Absent a radical change, the Administration has no mechanism for self-correction. It will not get normal; it will get worse.

Trump is less impeded than ever, a fact that impresses even those he has mocked and spurned. Stephen Bannon (who Trump said had “lost his mind”) recently told me, “He is unchained. This is primal Trump—back to the leader he was during the campaign, the same one the American people voted into office. There are no more McMasters in the apparatus. He’s got s**t he’s got to get done, and he’s just going to get it done.”

Midway through its second year, Trump’s White House is at war within and without, racing to banish the “disloyals” and to beat back threatening information. Bit by bit, the White House is becoming Trump’s Emerald City: isolated, fortified against nonbelievers, entranced by its mythmaker, and constantly vulnerable to the risks of revelation. ♦
Personally, I believe that Trump has put the United States on an accelerated path to decline, furthering what started under GWB. At the end of the Clinton administration the U.S. was the undisputed military superpower. That was based somewhat on illusion, but an illusion that is strongly believed can be quite powerful. GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.

Of course Obama didn't do a great deal to rebuild that illusion of our being a military superpower, but he DID spend a great deal of time and effort in trying to cultivate and strengthen our alliances, and the next best thing to being a military superpower is to have robust alliances with a large number moderate military powers.

Well, Trump hasn't succeeded at destroying those alliances, quite yet. But he has severely strained them. And given another couple of years of his administration, he may force our one time allies to seek other alliances, ones that are more stable and predictable. Allies that can be counted on not to shift with the wind and always put their own interests ahead of those of the alliance as a whole.

With the limits of our military might exposed and our alliances tattered if not completely torn, our ability to accomplish things using just the possibility that we might intervene militarily is greatly reduced. Basically, if we really want to get things accomplished, we'll have to send in the troops. And the places we'll be able to do that with a free hand will become smaller and smaller, because the newly reconfigured alliances that will form to fill in the vacuum we'll be leaving. And such uses of military force are exceedingly expensive, and we're going to be less and less able to afford it.

Eventually, we'll be much like the UK, once a global power but reduced to being mostly a regional player with some limited ability to impact things outside our immediate vicinity.

This was probably going to be inevitable, but there was the chance that if we played our cards right we could have put that day off for quite a while longer, perhaps several decades. As it is, I expect we've got maybe 10 years before our world power has been eclipsed by, most likely, the Chinese.
Trumps last budget did well-fund the Military.

I do believe you criticized him for it.
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
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Joined: March 19th, 2016, 1:42 am

May 16th, 2018, 7:52 pm #18

estonianman wrote:Opinionated's government checks are not increasing to keep up with inflation

=

AMERICA IS ON THE PATH TO DECLINE :)
Mine private sector paycheck is :cheers:
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
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Joined: March 19th, 2016, 1:42 am

May 16th, 2018, 7:53 pm #19

clone wrote:Tangible proof Liberals are indeed delusional....

:lol:
"if that **** wins we'll all hang from nooses"
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Joined: March 17th, 2016, 11:16 pm

May 16th, 2018, 7:56 pm #20

Robertr2000 wrote:
Opinionated wrote:
RaiderNation wrote:
wrote:The early mistakes in Iraq were like land mines sown in the soil. They continued erupting for years, in the form of division and decay. Similarly, the mistakes that the Trump Administration has made are likely to multiply: the dismantling of the State Department; the denigration of the civil service; the exclusion of experts on Iran and climate change; the fictional statistics about undocumented immigrants; and the effort to squelch dissent across the government. Absent a radical change, the Administration has no mechanism for self-correction. It will not get normal; it will get worse.

Trump is less impeded than ever, a fact that impresses even those he has mocked and spurned. Stephen Bannon (who Trump said had “lost his mind”) recently told me, “He is unchained. This is primal Trump—back to the leader he was during the campaign, the same one the American people voted into office. There are no more McMasters in the apparatus. He’s got s**t he’s got to get done, and he’s just going to get it done.”

Midway through its second year, Trump’s White House is at war within and without, racing to banish the “disloyals” and to beat back threatening information. Bit by bit, the White House is becoming Trump’s Emerald City: isolated, fortified against nonbelievers, entranced by its mythmaker, and constantly vulnerable to the risks of revelation. ♦
Personally, I believe that Trump has put the United States on an accelerated path to decline, furthering what started under GWB. At the end of the Clinton administration the U.S. was the undisputed military superpower. That was based somewhat on illusion, but an illusion that is strongly believed can be quite powerful. GWB's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed much of that illusion.

Of course Obama didn't do a great deal to rebuild that illusion of our being a military superpower, but he DID spend a great deal of time and effort in trying to cultivate and strengthen our alliances, and the next best thing to being a military superpower is to have robust alliances with a large number moderate military powers.

Well, Trump hasn't succeeded at destroying those alliances, quite yet. But he has severely strained them. And given another couple of years of his administration, he may force our one time allies to seek other alliances, ones that are more stable and predictable. Allies that can be counted on not to shift with the wind and always put their own interests ahead of those of the alliance as a whole.

With the limits of our military might exposed and our alliances tattered if not completely torn, our ability to accomplish things using just the possibility that we might intervene militarily is greatly reduced. Basically, if we really want to get things accomplished, we'll have to send in the troops. And the places we'll be able to do that with a free hand will become smaller and smaller, because the newly reconfigured alliances that will form to fill in the vacuum we'll be leaving. And such uses of military force are exceedingly expensive, and we're going to be less and less able to afford it.

Eventually, we'll be much like the UK, once a global power but reduced to being mostly a regional player with some limited ability to impact things outside our immediate vicinity.

This was probably going to be inevitable, but there was the chance that if we played our cards right we could have put that day off for quite a while longer, perhaps several decades. As it is, I expect we've got maybe 10 years before our world power has been eclipsed by, most likely, the Chinese.
Trumps last budget did well-fund the Military.

I do believe you criticized him for it.
The problem isn't the funding of the military. The problem is that we're no longer perceived as invincible, as we once were. We can't afford to invade every country that we want something from that will now refuse to be intimidated by previously perceived might.

That's not to say that our military isn't still powerful, but now it's known to not be unbeatable.
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